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The Brutal Truth about the Z35

Old 12-15-2015, 04:25 PM
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Default The Brutal Truth about the Z35

This is for all of those waiting for the next Z. The truth is that Nissan has little incentive to bring a replacement for the 370Z to market at any time soon. Looking at latest sales figures from the end of 2015, the 370Z is at least finishing the year on an up note:

2014- 6,753
2015- 6.910 (up 2.3%)

These figures are comparable with the new Mazda MX-5 Miata, an all-new refreshed and enhanced model, that is a couple hundred units ahead for the year, and FAR ahead of the outgoing models in 2014. Even more surprising is that combined sales of the 2015 Porsche Boxter/Cayman are running about 500 less than the Z, but remain roughly comparable.

But take a closer look at the big sellers in Nissan's lineup and you see this:

Murano-

2014- 42,934

2015- 55,827 (up 30.0% with an all-new model)

But even THAT doesn't compare to sales of the Rogue:

2014- 184,326

2015- 260,711 (up 41.4% on a model introduced in 2014)

Both Murano and Rogue are leading the Nissan lineup in sales, as crossovers take the sales lead from sedans by the end of the year. Nissan remains in an enviable position, but knows the market for sportscars continues to erode. The return on investment (ROI) for the millions required to put a new Z into production is also compromised by the need for a new GT-R. Godzilla has taken over as the flagship model, so money spent on a halo model won't be earmarked for the Z. Of course, we've all seen the concept model GripZ, but that's still just testing the market. My guess is the final decision on what the new Z will be is still in the future. How far is that? Well, specs on the 2016 370Z already has its own thread, and those who are hoping for 2017 are just waiting for disappointment. Could Nissan launch a concept Z model in 2018 that leads to production by 2020? It's a long way off, but that's my best guess, what's yours?

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Old 12-15-2015, 05:11 PM
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yea theyll probably take it out of production then release it again just like the transition from the 300 to the 350. smart choice really. since they need time to plan their next move. in 2003, the v6 350 could keep up with the v8 mustangs.

now the 370 is having a hard time competing with the like of the gt350, the hellcat, the zl1 the challenger srt, the mustang gt, the camaro ss. i know the cars are different classes, but its still all a competition whether its directly or in directly.
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Old 12-15-2015, 05:18 PM
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How about Nissan developed a new twin turbo z or Infiniti G! that will definitely be able to compete with the new top model mustangs camaros and corvettes. I don't think an all new z35 is needed at the moment. Just a forced induction option from the factory would be enough lol
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Old 12-15-2015, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by SoCal_VQ View Post
How about Nissan developed a new twin turbo z or Infiniti G! that will definitely be able to compete with the new top model mustangs camaros and corvettes
you mean the gtr? lol
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Old 12-15-2015, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by turboed350z View Post
you mean the gtr? lol
300zx were tt from the factory. Why not something like that as an option for the z34
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Old 12-15-2015, 05:23 PM
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And no not the GTR. That is a 150k super car. I meant something that will give these American v8s a run for their money
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Old 12-15-2015, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by SoCal_VQ View Post
300zx were tt from the factory. Why not something like that as an option for the z34
and then they stop and focus on the r34 which pretty much killed everything, sadly never allowed in america. now the 370 pretty much suffer the same fate. the 370 gets discontinued. they make the r35 even better than it is, then discontinue the r35 and bring in the 390z(maybe?)
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Old 12-15-2015, 05:30 PM
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I'm not surprised about the mid size SUV's outselling sportscars. People are seeing a better economy or better pay, and so they're having families and need the stereotypical vehicle to go with that. I think a sportscar is a luxury item that some of us appreciate as a passionate hobby or a dream come true.
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Old 12-15-2015, 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by dkmura View Post
This is for all of those waiting for the next Z. The truth is that Nissan has little incentive to bring a replacement for the 370Z to market at any time soon. Looking at latest sales figures from the end of 2015, the 370Z is at least finishing the year on an up note:

2014- 6,753
2015- 6.910 (up 2.3%)

These figures are comparable with the new Mazda MX-5 Miata, an all-new refreshed and enhanced model, that is a couple hundred units ahead for the year, and FAR ahead of the outgoing models in 2014. Even more surprising is that combined sales of the 2015 Porsche Boxter/Cayman are running about 500 less than the Z, but remain roughly comparable.

But take a closer look at the big sellers in Nissan's lineup and you see this:

Murano-

2014- 42,934

2015- 55,827 (up 30.0% with an all-new model)

But even THAT doesn't compare to sales of the Rogue:

2014- 184,326

2015- 260,711 (up 41.4% on a model introduced in 2014)

Both Murano and Rogue are leading the Nissan lineup in sales, as crossovers take the sales lead from sedans by the end of the year. Nissan remains in an enviable position, but knows the market for sportscars continues to erode. The return on investment (ROI) for the millions required to put a new Z into production is also compromised by the need for a new GT-R. Godzilla has taken over as the flagship model, so money spent on a halo model won't be earmarked for the Z. Of course, we've all seen the concept model GripZ, but that's still just testing the market. My guess is the final decision on what the new Z will be is still in the future. How far is that? Well, specs on the 2016 370Z already has its own thread, and those who are hoping for 2017 are just waiting to be disappointment. Could Nissan launch a concept Z model in 2018 that leads to production by 2020? It's a long way off, but that's my best guess, what's yours?

I've read all the rumors and ruminations on "what the next Z will be" from the concept models with the wide variety of speculated power trains ranging from I4/electric (hybrid) to turbo diesel to I4 Turbo and each time I read something, I just shake my head and think, "Ehhh, when it gets here, it gets here." I mean, really, no point in getting hopes up at this juncture.

But I am tending to believe the other direction it could take - which coincides with your speculation - and that is that the model will go into hiatus for a few model years just like the "transition period" between Z32 and Z33. If that's any indication, a four year hiatus as you've suggested between the "last Z34" (MY '16) and the Z35 (let's call it MY '20), will actually be ahead of the game.

I think that's a good thing too. Why? It'll give the buying public time to get itchy. By that I mean that expectations rise, desire for a new Z grows (based on what Nissan has done since 1970 with the Z car), the engineering that goes into the new car will have matured (see below on my speculation and why I say this), and the re-emergence will have far more impact as a revolution rather than an evolution, which, since 2003 model year until today, it has been.

Having owned at least one of each of the last three generations, I'm finding the formula of front engine V6/RWD - as much as I love it and will continue to maintain mine at the highest levels - is getting a bit stale. But at least it's remained true to it's roots started some 45 years ago. And for that I'm grateful.

But for the future, what do I see? I would truly like to see a chassis/powertrain worthy of the Z reputation as a class leader but not so ridiculously "out-there" that it closes the door on the same people who can buy a new Z34 today. That is, relatively high disposable income earners with enough buying power to still allow the owner to pay his/her mortgage and raise the kids.

What's that mean in dollar signs? Well, a starting point around $32-35k (just above the starting point today) and upwards to a point not to exceed ~$50k.

This broad range would mean that there should be powertrain options right there along with the luxury and performance options like we have today. Maybe a 300hp base model and rising to a keep-the-corporate-insurers happy 425-450hp upper end. What engines specifically? Don't even want to speculate on that. I'm looking at this from the functional/performing standpoint, not the hardware, which is incidental, be it a raucous turbo four banger pumping out 300 ponies or a combination of an 200hp NA four with 25hp-equivalent electric motors at each wheel. 300 is 300.

Could this be done by 2020? Heck yes, I believe so. While Nissan hasn't really done a lot of pioneer work in hybrid technology, they have made significant in-roads into the all-electric market with the Leaf so I don't believe it'd be too much to ask the number two Japanese manufacturer (sixth in the world) to give us something interesting in the form of a hybrid drivetrain suitable for a GT car the caliber of the Z. Especially with the financial backing of the Nissan-Renault Alliance (no, not the car!)

And this is why I mentioned that the hiatus could be a good thing.... to allow the Nissan iteration of a hybrid drivetrain to mature some. More R&D, more real world testing (possibly in other chassis or a mule FM plat car as a possibility.)

Bottom line: Not holding my breath and as I said at the top, "It gets here when it gets here." In the meantime, my trusty stable will keep me right up there with any other sports car in the world.

Mic
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Old 12-15-2015, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by MicVelo View Post
I've read all the rumors and ruminations on "what the next Z will be" from the concept models with the wide variety of speculated power trains ranging from I4/electric (hybrid) to turbo diesel to I4 Turbo and each time I read something, I just shake my head and think, "Ehhh, when it gets here, it gets here." I mean, really, no point in getting hopes up at this juncture.

But I am tending to believe the other direction it could take - which coincides with your speculation - and that is that the model will go into hiatus for a few model years just like the "transition period" between Z32 and Z33. If that's any indication, a four year hiatus as you've suggested between the "last Z34" (MY '16) and the Z35 (let's call it MY '20), will actually be ahead of the game.

I think that's a good thing too. Why? It'll give the buying public time to get itchy. By that I mean that expectations rise, desire for a new Z grows (based on what Nissan has done since 1970 with the Z car), the engineering that goes into the new car will have matured (see below on my speculation and why I say this), and the re-emergence will have far more impact as a revolution rather than an evolution, which, since 2003 model year until today, it has been.

Having owned at least one of each of the last three generations, I'm finding the formula of front engine V6/RWD - as much as I love it and will continue to maintain mine at the highest levels - is getting a bit stale. But at least it's remained true to it's roots started some 45 years ago. And for that I'm grateful.

But for the future, what do I see? I would truly like to see a chassis/powertrain worthy of the Z reputation as a class leader but not so ridiculously "out-there" that it closes the door on the same people who can buy a new Z34 today. That is, relatively high disposable income earners with enough buying power to still allow the owner to pay his/her mortgage and raise the kids.

What's that mean in dollar signs? Well, a starting point around $32-35k (just above the starting point today) and upwards to a point not to exceed ~$50k.

This broad range would mean that there should be powertrain options right there along with the luxury and performance options like we have today. Maybe a 300hp base model and rising to a keep-the-corporate-insurers happy 425-450hp upper end. What engines specifically? Don't even want to speculate on that. I'm looking at this from the functional/performing standpoint, not the hardware, which is incidental, be it a raucous turbo four banger pumping out 300 ponies or a combination of an 200hp NA four with 25hp-equivalent electric motors at each wheel. 300 is 300.

Could this be done by 2020? Heck yes, I believe so. While Nissan hasn't really done a lot of pioneer work in hybrid technology, they have made significant in-roads into the all-electric market with the Leaf so I don't believe it'd be too much to ask the number two Japanese manufacturer (sixth in the world) to give us something interesting in the form of a hybrid drivetrain suitable for a GT car the caliber of the Z. Especially with the financial backing of the Nissan-Renault Alliance (no, not the car!)

And this is why I mentioned that the hiatus could be a good thing.... to allow the Nissan iteration of a hybrid drivetrain to mature some. More R&D, more real world testing (possibly in other chassis or a mule FM plat car as a possibility.)

Bottom line: Not holding my breath and as I said at the top, "It gets here when it gets here." In the meantime, my trusty stable will keep me right up there with any other sports car in the world.

Mic
to add to what mic says, theres a high likely hood of them do what they did with the 300zx. NA base option, tt top of tier option.

only difference, their new z engine will probably be the variable copression engine that they have been working on. its a game changer for sure, and i can see them putting that and a turbo into the new z
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Old 12-15-2015, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by MicVelo View Post

Bottom line: Not holding my breath and as I said at the top, "It gets here when it gets here." In the meantime, my trusty stable will keep me right up there with any other sports car in the world.

Mic
That's exactly how I felt when I had the 300ZX and sold it before the rumors of the 350Z started circulating. Then I got excited about it and really wanted to get back into the Nissan family.
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Old 12-15-2015, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by MicVelo View Post
I've read all the rumors and ruminations on "what the next Z will be" from the concept models with the wide variety of speculated power trains ranging from I4/electric (hybrid) to turbo diesel to I4 Turbo and each time I read something, I just shake my head and think, "Ehhh, when it gets here, it gets here." I mean, really, no point in getting hopes up at this juncture.

But I am tending to believe the other direction it could take - which coincides with your speculation - and that is that the model will go into hiatus for a few model years just like the "transition period" between Z32 and Z33. If that's any indication, a four year hiatus as you've suggested between the "last Z34" (MY '16) and the Z35 (let's call it MY '20), will actually be ahead of the game.

I think that's a good thing too. Why? It'll give the buying public time to get itchy. By that I mean that expectations rise, desire for a new Z grows (based on what Nissan has done since 1970 with the Z car), the engineering that goes into the new car will have matured (see below on my speculation and why I say this), and the re-emergence will have far more impact as a revolution rather than an evolution, which, since 2003 model year until today, it has been.

Having owned at least one of each of the last three generations, I'm finding the formula of front engine V6/RWD - as much as I love it and will continue to maintain mine at the highest levels - is getting a bit stale. But at least it's remained true to it's roots started some 45 years ago. And for that I'm grateful.

But for the future, what do I see? I would truly like to see a chassis/powertrain worthy of the Z reputation as a class leader but not so ridiculously "out-there" that it closes the door on the same people who can buy a new Z34 today. That is, relatively high disposable income earners with enough buying power to still allow the owner to pay his/her mortgage and raise the kids.

What's that mean in dollar signs? Well, a starting point around $32-35k (just above the starting point today) and upwards to a point not to exceed ~$50k.

This broad range would mean that there should be powertrain options right there along with the luxury and performance options like we have today. Maybe a 300hp base model and rising to a keep-the-corporate-insurers happy 425-450hp upper end. What engines specifically? Don't even want to speculate on that. I'm looking at this from the functional/performing standpoint, not the hardware, which is incidental, be it a raucous turbo four banger pumping out 300 ponies or a combination of an 200hp NA four with 25hp-equivalent electric motors at each wheel. 300 is 300.

Could this be done by 2020? Heck yes, I believe so. While Nissan hasn't really done a lot of pioneer work in hybrid technology, they have made significant in-roads into the all-electric market with the Leaf so I don't believe it'd be too much to ask the number two Japanese manufacturer (sixth in the world) to give us something interesting in the form of a hybrid drivetrain suitable for a GT car the caliber of the Z. Especially with the financial backing of the Nissan-Renault Alliance (no, not the car!)

And this is why I mentioned that the hiatus could be a good thing.... to allow the Nissan iteration of a hybrid drivetrain to mature some. More R&D, more real world testing (possibly in other chassis or a mule FM plat car as a possibility.)

Bottom line: Not holding my breath and as I said at the top, "It gets here when it gets here." In the meantime, my trusty stable will keep me right up there with any other sports car in the world.

Mic
Excellent points as usual, Mic! I particularly appreciate your comments on the potential market segment the next Z should compete in. Above the MX-5 and BRZ, yet below the C7 Vette and Porsche 911. Nissan has been big on finding those niche markets and must be studying whether the $32-50K market remains a viable option for the next Z.

In the meantime, I'll continue to enjoy my Z(s) and try to ignore all the future posts from posters lamenting the fact that Nissan hasn't produced a new Z YET.
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Old 12-15-2015, 07:15 PM
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Bet we'll see a new model for the 50th anniversary. I'm really hoping it's worth the wait. I worry that the popularity of the smaller and less aggressive Sicon/ Subaru will have an impact on the design.
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Old 12-15-2015, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by turboed350z View Post
to add to what mic says, theres a high likely hood of them do what they did with the 300zx. NA base option, tt top of tier option.

only difference, their new z engine will probably be the variable copression engine that they have been working on. its a game changer for sure, and i can see them putting that and a turbo into the new z
Umm no that's what i said but go on
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Old 12-15-2015, 07:38 PM
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If Nissan came out with a 400+ hp twin turbo z they would have to put the msrp at 60-80k that's the problem. Top of the line Nismo 370 brand new go for almost 50k and that's NA 350 hp to the crank
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Old 12-15-2015, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by SmoothZ View Post
That's exactly how I felt when I had the 300ZX and sold it before the rumors of the 350Z started circulating. Then I got excited about it and really wanted to get back into the Nissan family.

WARNING: More speculative commentary ahead. Read at your own risk and please don't operate heavy machinery after reading if you do.



Exactly!

But not only does Nissan need to bring the prior owner, diehard Z people back - which they will because, IMO, once you've owned a Z, you'll never get it out of your system - but they also need to bring in an entirely new segment of buyers who heretofore were led to believe that the only true sports cars came from other parts of the world. That means that people buying Porsches, BMWs, Audis, and yes, maybe even the Italian offerings will find it "OK" to own a less expensive but equally performing Japanese sports car.

So in that vein, while we're on topic, I believe that the new Z car needs (or at least be considered in the design of the Z35) the following things:

1. Lower weight through the use of composites, smaller engine perhaps because lowering weight of the car equates to either equivalent or higher power:weight ratios. Hey, worked for Lotus. Current cars are fat and overweight.

2. Mid-engine design perhaps? Better weight distribution that could contribute to or complement a hybrid-motor design driving all four wheels.

3. Body by Pininfarina maybe? Or somebody in the California Design Studio (yes, the same that penned the Z33) that understands what it means to design with efficiency in mind - efficiency in passenger accommodations, efficiency in space management with no afterthoughts - like how to make a stunning and swoopy body with a cd under 0.25 that's still able to accommodate the modicum of drive options, e.g., electric motors. And still look good, not like a jelly bean.

And I could go on and on....

But hey, guess what I just described?

The Acura NSX. Original or 2016, take your pick. The formula is there.

Yes, I know the new NSX is well over $100k but Nissan, being who they are, a company able to make reasonable concessions in pricing to meet fiduciary objectives, I feel could still bring such engineering into the realm of the price range I mentioned previously, less than/equal to $50k.

Imagine the incorporation of some of the design exotica of the NSX (the concepts, not the parts), the composites and the high strength strength backbone of a Lotus, then pairing that with the economies of scale of being built on the same production lines as any "standard" Nissan and carrying over cross platform parts and what do you get?

A winner. One that can help Nissan realize the opportunity of revitalizing the Sports/GT segment that unfortunately has been on the wane (but good to see where Nissan's sales of Z's has gone up!)

Should this come as any surprise? Nope, the Z car has successfully occupied this niche for 45 years!

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Old 12-16-2015, 01:43 AM
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The 2015 Nismo 370z starts at 42k so a tt version would clearly have to be priced way above 50k. And Nissan knows it wouldn't be worth it. Sure some people will buy it but they wouldn't sell more than a couple hundred in the states. Nismo GTR 150k. New nsx 100+k. Tt z 75k?! Would you buy it?!
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Old 12-16-2015, 05:11 AM
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Originally Posted by SoCal_VQ View Post
The 2015 Nismo 370z starts at 42k so a tt version would clearly have to be priced way above 50k. And Nissan knows it wouldn't be worth it. Sure some people will buy it but they wouldn't sell more than a couple hundred in the states. Nismo GTR 150k. New nsx 100+k. Tt z 75k?! Would you buy it?!
+1

I think it's best that they hold off on the next generation Z.
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Old 12-16-2015, 05:31 AM
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If they finish the variable compression engine, we will likely see an NA and a turbo version of the new z. Hopefully a 390 or even a 410.

Idk why everyone is so hooked on that "it will have to be over 50k because nismo this nismo that." First ove all, the evo is turboed and it starts at 30kish. Very do able. Secondly, correct me if im wrong, but nismo z started in 08. Which means they can go the same route as the 300 and NOT have a nismo edition which will bring a turbo z to around 40k. And for those who WANT a nismo, nissan can easily limits the number to less than 500 nismo and tag them at 60k and it will STILL sell out.
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Old 12-16-2015, 06:44 AM
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They already have the tooling and most of the hardware thanks to the Q. The Z35 NEEDS to start where most successful Z's have in the current $30K US dollar range. The reason I got rid of my 370Z for a 3.8 Genesis coupe wasnt performance...it was amenities. I got 95% of 370Z performance with 300% tech and pseudo lux for 9 grand LESS than i paid on the Z (base with sport). If Hyundai can do it, Nissan surely can.
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