detroitg37joe

SYNTHETICS IN THE USA. @1996 rewrite ~2000©

In the USA there are a few different types of synthetic base stocks used in engine oils. We will just touch on two in this technical / sales paper.
The word Synthetic is confusing; it describes a process, not a material. For example, White sand is synthesized into glass, but glass is never called "synthetic sand". Most people think that all synthetic oils are made of the same base, This is wrong! For most of the USA, there are mainly two types of synthetic oils (or as we like to say, synthetics are designer oils).

The most common is a PAO, short for poly-alpha-olefine, or easier to understand, it is synthesized petroleum oil. It is refined in a special process, or in simple words "synthesized". It still starts out by being pumped out of the ground. PAO’s are better than regular petroleum oil for handling heat, oxidation, low temperature startups and higher film strength. Drawback: PAO and petroleum are dynamic types of oil, you have to build up oil pressure and have rotation before a film is produced. Better said, you have to hydroplane the engine parts like you hydroplane a car in the rain, to create a film (or in the case of water-skiing, you have to build speed for the skier to get up and plane on the water). PAO’s are not very expensive because they are made from crude oil and produced in large quantities. You can usually tell when PAO’s are the main ingredient used as the cost of the 100% synthetic oil is less than $7.00 per quart.

The other main type of synthetics are synthetic esters, (diester, polyolesters, polyesters and complex esters). Motul® uses esters in its products. Esters are mostly made of vegetables, minerals, and animal fatty acids. Motul’s® esters contain a lot of coconut derivatives. Esters are much more expensive because the ingredients all have to be collected from natural resources and synthesized (a very expensive process) in smaller quantities. Esters have all the advantages of a PAO but more of them. Esters can handle heat better than PAO’s and when burned, esters leave far less coking deposits. Esters are static types of oils and are attracted to metal parts with an electro-chemical bond. This means no more metal to metal start ups. This also means that a film is there before the oil pressure light goes out preventing premature wear of high-stressed parts like cam lobes. The film created is up to 5 times stronger then petroleum oil.

The number one reason to run an ester synthetic oil is bond. The electro-chemical bond is made because the ester molecule is polar. Sort of like a refrigerator magnet. It is attracted to metal and sticks.The PAO molecules are neutral and act like a piece of plastic placed on the fridge. They just fall off. All commercial jet plane flying, use an ester synthetic of some type and not a PAO. You need to run an ester of some sort for maximum protection.

There are some companies calling level 3 petroleum base stocks synthetic. This oil is a good Petro oil. But it is not what we call a synthetic. The end result is that some oils are labeled incorrectly and are very inexpensive.
Let’s explain why handling higher running temps is important.With petroleum oils there is a much better risk of failure from volatility problems than with synthetics. Why?

Have you ever burned butter while cooking? Yes, everybody has burned butter! The running temp or maximum temp is low. When butter reaches its maximum running temp it starts to evaporate (volatility) then it carbonizes and then it sticks to the metal pan. Now compare butter to vegetable oil in which you deep fry french fries. The only way to heat vegetable oil so hot as to make it carbonize, you would almost need a direct flame.

Petroleum oil is like butter as far as handling heat! Synthetics are like vegetable oil - synthetics won’t burn up and stick to your engine parts or go out the breather as fast as petroleum oils will. Remember esthers leave almost no deposits if they do burn this is the second reason to run a synthetic oil. Because you’re not supposed to have extreme heat problems everyday.



I think ester additives are great for our VQs. At least I know it is for sure on the VQ37HR because even Nissan put out a TSB saying that they recommend using Ester Conventional. Resolute, do you know what the best synthetic that uses ester-based additives is?

QuadCam

iTrader: (8)

the motul ester synthetics haven't had great results on the VQs. there are others, but the motul is one of the easiest to get. On my VQ, motul 300v resulted in higher than normal wear metal levels in my UOA. I have since switched to a high ZDDP synthetic diesel oil, which has been fantastic.

One thing to consider since the VQ35's cam-over-bucket is similar in design to a flat tappet cam/lifter OHV motor........oils high in ZDDP are recommended for added protection in this high friction environment of cam/lifter(bucket) contact.

Resolute

iTrader: (2)

BeerViper,

I would say that your UOA looks better than most NA engine oil samples, much less the oil results from other FI engines.

Fe, Pb, copper... all the wear metals are very low, which means that the oil is doing a good job of protecting your internal components from wear. The oil is a thick 30wt oil now, but that is to be expected with this forulation. M1 0W-40 is a very thin 40 weight, and many people, myself included, see it as more of a very thick 30 weight oil. In either case, it is still within the recommended grade Nissan suggests and it did its job well. I still say this is the best formulation of Mobil1 you can buy, and the only one I've personally used that I didn't think was a waste of money for engines seeing FI or track day use.

Will

Resolute

iTrader: (2)

Joe, I can't believe you spammed up this thread. Obviously you didn't write this, but since you failed to give a source, I am going to guess that this was simply copied and pasted from some company's marketing spiel on their website.

I am not going to bother getting into the specifics of oil base stock definitions, their function and role, and the pros and cons of each. My take on these things is already posted on the first page of this thread.

I will say, that if you are interested in really learning more about oil basics, to not take my word, the postings of an internet forum where everyone is an expert, or the ramblings of website marketers at face value. There are a number of technical and white papers that are accessible to the public from non-biased industry sources, any number of which will give you factual review of the finer points of engine oil chemistry. Some key things you might discover include:

-why a PAO is no more a "synthesized petroleum oil" than many esters, depending on which esters you're comparing and your definition of what constitutes petroleum oil, since both are merely hydrocarbon chains.

-that PAO starts off as petroleum in the same way we can say esters start off as fruit.

-esters do have polar affinity. They also suffer from ester hydrolysis, instability in the face of moisture, and are not compatible with nitrile seals.

-esters are used in jet engine oils. Which would be relevant if a turbine functioned in anywhere near the same capacity as your engine.

-SAT time: butter vs. vegetable oil is as to conventional vs. synthetic in the same way as __________. (answer: apples vs. oranges)


Now, as to ester engine oils being the best for the VQ37VHR because Nissan put out a TSB for the use of their oil, (which is not a Group 5 oil, but a conventional base with ester additive, which really has little to do then with the marketing spiel you posted), I remain dubious. Of course, I also have seen Nissan issue a TSB for fixing the transmissions on 350Z's, and it not be an effective solution for the problem until 9 iterations later. Go figure me as a pessimist, but I wouldn't be so quick to think Nissan might have solved whatever issue there is with the VHR with their expensive oil. I also wouldn't be so quick as to ignore the obvious logical fallacy of drawing a conclusion that since the new special oil claims to have more ester additive, that "you know for sure" that an oil with lots of esters must be the best.

Joe, the point of this thread is to compare UOA's and discuss the chemistry of engine oil. If you want to post a question from a SAE report, or some tribological study on engine oils, then cool. That would be a sweet contribution for discussion and any new information could be added to the Q&A on the first page. Quoting a manufacturer's marketing pitch which promotes some function of their oil as being the best.. not so cool. Firstly, because I could just as easily copy and paste some blurb from Amsoil's site that directly contradicts the clip you posted. Secondly, we have plenty of UOA's to also show that ester based oils tend to perform worse than PAO or G3 oils in the same VQ engine, which is rebuttal enough. But mostly, because there is no one "best" oil. The main problem with the information you posted is that it makes blanket statements, and if oil chemistry was as simple as most marketers make it seem, then everyone would be formulating along the same general lines. There is no one oil that will perform the best for every user in every engine. For you to know which oils are the best, or maybe which oil properties seem to be desirable, for your conditions, then do some UOA's. Look for trends to develop between certain brands, weights, or chemistry. That is what we have done here.

Good luck,

Will

BeerViper

Resolute, I thank you kindly for your break-down. I never can remember which elements are additives and which are wear metals without always referring back to page 1 of this great thread. I've been following this thread for a long time and with each new UOA that gets posted you always seem to identify something that I miss.

With that said, it's always great to hear that your results look good and that you are doing as much as possible to extend the life of the motor (even when you do things like FI that can potentially shorten the life of the motor ).

I will do another UOA when I hit 3k miles which should come a bit quicker this time as I'm taking a short road trip in a few weeks... This time the oil will have a hard track day with less time on the oil so I am eager to see the difference.

I am also tempted to try the Shell Rotella T-syn due to the positive results I'm seeing here but also the significant difference in price from the M1 0W-40! My only concern is that I understand the T-syn is a "heavier" 40 weight than the M1 0W-40 - since the Vortech blower uses a thin braided line from the oil pan to lubricate the impeller it does not see near the temperatures as a typical turbo setup and I'm wondering if the T-syn might be too "thick" for the job??? Does that make sense even?

Resolute

iTrader: (2)

Your concern makes sense, and is a valid one. Proper viscosity is really the most critical factor of proper lubricant selection. Even the best formulated oil will fail to protect an engine if it can't flow to the critical parts as it should.

However, the difference between the M1 0W-40 and the Rotella in terms of viscosity is only seen as extreme because we look at viscosity on a very small scale. Much like an engine builder sees several micrometers variation between parts as a huge change, when it's really barely noticeable. Of course, an engine needs such tight tolerances. We have more leeway with oil.

The engine will be fine with a 40 weight oil, even a thick one. At one hundred degrees Celsius (212 F) the viscosity difference is negligible in terms of resistance to flow in the oil line to your compressor. The real difference, albeit a small one, is in cold flow properties. The M1 will flow better when cold than the Rotella, but unless you're starting your engine in below zero temps, it won't be a real difference.

As far as protection goes from the weight difference, the M1 0W-40 looks like it's doing a stellar job. The Rotella stands a better chance in your compressor simply because it is a thicker oil and has a higher HTHS score, but the difference in chemistry between the two oils makes it tough to guess which would be better overall. Really, the M1 looks stellar in your engine, and I would be surprised to see your wear get any better with another oil. If you try the Rotella and the results are just as good, then you will have a good choice in it since it is less expensive.

So, there is no cause for concern with it being "too thick" unless you're starting your car in the extreme cold, and I really didn't pay attention to where you live to say one way or another. The fact that it is a little thicker could be a benefit for your engine in terms of wear protection, but your UOA looks so good, it's hard to see it getting better. Which means the best reason to try it is to see if it will keep your wear just as low as the M1, for a lot less money.

Will

myhosilver

Guys,

After reading all 35 pages of this thread, and gaining tons of interesting knowledge, I can't help but admit that though I've been able to pick out some of the more obvious trends among brands and formulations of oil when used in the VQ, more than anything I've emerged with a good deal more anxiety about making a choice at the store when the time comes for an oil change. I recognize that the purpose of this thread is to post and discuss UOA's, and not to provide recommendations on which oil is "best" per se, but one question has been bugging me, and I haven't seen it asked yet:

If 0W-xx oils (i.e., GC 0W-30, M1 0W-40, etc.) can provide better cold flow properties than 5W-xx or 10W-xx oils, while still offering the necessary lubrication and protection at operating temperature, why doesn't Nissan (and other manufacturers of similar vehicles, for that matter) list them among the recommended grades for that vehicle? I've read over and over the explanations of multi-grade oils, viscosity, etc., on pg 1 of this thread, and I've poured over and compared the UOA's posted here. It's clear that there are people who have obtained as good or better wear results with synthetic 0W-xx oils when compared to conventional 5W-xx or 10W-xx oils, which is what the owner's manual explicitly recommends. Furthermore, at least in my limited understanding, if 0W-xx oils can offer better cold flow and thus, quicker or better protection of a cold engine, why aren't they the totally obvious choice? I'm sure there must be other factors at play here that I'm not aware of, but the excellent info and results here notwithstanding, I just can't get past wondering - why aren't they recommended according to the manual???

Thanks to anyone who can shed some light.

Resolute

iTrader: (2)

Many OEM's do recommend 0W-xx oils. Off the top of my head, I can think of several Porsches, Vauxhals, Dodge, Cadillacs, Chevrolet, MB, and BMW's. All of these brands have some models which come filled with, or recommend, either a 0W-30 or 0W-40 oil.

Why don't all models recommend a 0W oil? Good question. Steve Swedberg asked the same thing in an issue of Lubes N' Greases magazine, and discovered it's not very marketable.

Since 0W-xx oils require more advanced (and therefore more expensive) chemistry, the OEM's don't specify it unless it is absolutely needed for the longevity and design parameters of the engine. That way, the amount they charge for an oil change is less. This reduces ownership costs as reported by many independent magazines and consumer groups and makes their product look better. Consider the typical owner of a Ford Focus as an example, and you might understand that the majority of owners aren't interested in a higher performing oil for what is a mundane commuter car, and are primarily interested in having the lowest ownership costs they can. A 5W-30 grade may be acquired and sold relatively cheap by dealers, provides the necessary lubrication viscosity for most commuter engines, and is easily recognizable by consumers as an appropriate engine oil viscosity.

Now, the customer could go for extended drains with a better oil and actually save some money in the long run, but most people are not aware of this. According to a recent Lubes N' Greases survey, most people still follow a 3k mile oil change interval. So there is no benefit in buying a more expensive synthetic oil for the average consumer who will not realize any benefits of using it. So why recommend a synthetic 0W-xx oil when a 5W-30 oil may be used for a 3k-5k mile oil change interval, and may also be found as a less expensive conventional-formulated oil?

As another example, Ford and Honda each recommend a 5W-20 for some of their engines. Several oil manufacturers make a 0W-20 which exceeds the performance of their 5W-20 blends in every way. Mobil1 is a good example. Unfortunately, most owners of these vehicles won't buy it, and don't want to pay more for it at their dealership. They think that anything with a 0W-xx grade is "too thin", and are wary of it. Many members on this forum think the same way.

Of course, this is not true. 0W-xx oils provide better protection and are usually made with better basestocks than their more popular 5W and 10W synthetic counterparts. Some manufacturers recognize this, and take advantage of the availability of 0W-xx oils with longer oil change recommendations. Most of these companies are European, such as Mercedes-Benz and BMW. They sell higher-end cars and their customers are not so wary of spending extra money for a better product. Hence, synthetic 0W-xx oils are common in those makes. Of course, better oil chemistry also allows these manufacturers to provide warranties on high-power engines with specific outputs only available on race cars two decades ago.

So, many manufacturers do recommend a 0W-xx oil for their engines, but these recommendations are usually paired with extended oil change intervals for higher-performance engines. Much like Nissan recommending a 0W-40 in the Nissan GT-R, and not its other models.

Will

edit: myhosilver, I think you asked a very good question, and will add this to the Q&A on the first page.

myhosilver

Resolute, thanks so much for answering my question in such a clear and thoughtful way.

BTW, I actually called Nissan North America a few days ago to ask them this very same question, and they told me: "The oil recommendation in the owner's manual is the MINIMUM satisfactory oil requirement. If an owner chooses to use an oil with superior characteristics to that which is recommended in the manual this does not mean that this oil is NOT recommended by Nissan for use in this vehicle."

At the time, I was somewhat skeptical of this answer (who isn't somtimes skeptical of what they hear from the Nissan customer-service "experts"?), but your explanation further validates what I already suspected.

Again, thanks for clearing this up.

QuadCam

iTrader: (8)

This is my 5th UOA......my 4th UOA on the Rotella TSyn. I have been using the TSYN for about 14,000 miles now, and I am getting killer results. Just read what Blackstone has to say about it!!!!! Amazing about the lead too........took one year for the lead from a single tank of race gas to work its way out.

Nederlander75

Did you refill with the old formula TSYN or the new CJ?

QuadCam

iTrader: (8)

not sure.........It's the new style bottle. how can you tell which formula?

Nederlander75

It will say API CJ-4 instead of CI-4 and most likely will say Triple Protection versus Heavy Duty.

Are you running your cats still? Id imagine not, but just curious.

QuadCam

iTrader: (8)

i just the jug................it is the new CJ formula. looking at the UOA, there doesn't seem to be much of a difference in the ZDDP amounts.....a bit less zinc, but that's about it.

WhosRich

i've read this thread before, but where is the four recommended oils for NA VQ's? i can't seem to find it. i know one of them is the M1 0w-40 but im trying to stay away from dealer hassle as i am under warranty. if anyone can help me, that'd be great. thanks in advance.

edit: i think i'll just try the GC 0w-30 because i dont think the dealer can give me crap cause atleast its still a 30 weight. my question would be, is it okay to run this in the NY winter? and has anyone had any experience with a K&N oil filter?

Nederlander75

Yeah, dont see much if any diference in your UOAs CI to CJ. Still looks like a good oil for the VQ.

Nederlander75

The GC would be ideal for NY year round. Very thin in the cold, but probably the best 30wt at holding viscocity at operating temps. Ive run the K&N oil filters with not bad results and would say that beyond the Amsoil filters they are next best on par with the M1s. Easiest to take off too.

Nederlander75

Hi Will,

Got permission to post the makers information. I went through GC Lubricants, Bruce Fornesi. Let me know if you want more information. One of the guys on BITOG.

Resolute

iTrader: (2)

Great report! Wear is low and the oil is in good shape. This could just as well be a report from a NA engine, much less a FI engine.

Will

Resolute

iTrader: (2)

Thanks for sharing the info. I'm familiar with him, although I thought he was getting into HOBS base oils for his stuff. Can't wait to see your UOA's!

Will