Ok so I'm set on getting this kit except for one major issue, the location of the turbo. Everyone that I have talked to about this agrees that there is a good chance that a heat issue may arise due to the placement of the turbo. What are your thoughts on this? This issue is causing me to lean towards the aps single system but I haven't heard anythign about pricing for that. Also will the install on the APS single system be as "easy" as the install on the turbonetics kit? Thanks.

-Drew

 

Both my car and the Turbonetics car have hundreds or in their case thousands of miles with the kit and have seen no issues as a result of the turbo placement. As for install that remains to be seen for the APS kit but there are two things I DEFINITELY dont like about it.. One turbo placement is VERY low and unless they include some form of shielding (which will increase the heat in that area which just happens to be next to the tranny) there stands a good chance of some serious road debris damage. Second becuase the turbo is mounted so low the only way to cycle the oil back from the turbo is via a pump system which IMO just adds to one more point of failure.

 

the APS single will be available with a shield unless I am mistaken, I'm sure they'll have enough testing done to prove us that the location next to the tranny is not a problem. We'll wait and see.

Also, all of these kits come with so many aftermarket pumps and electronic gismos that one more or less doesn't matter in my opinion. You already have so many things that could go wrong in your existing engine and they usually hold up for 10s of thousands of miles without a problem.

 

Drew here's some info that I posted on another forum and I feel some of this information may be relevant to your questions. I'd like to avoid any further conflict with miaplaya as I know he's a strong supporter of the turbonetics product and that's cool with me so I will just post my thoughts and hopefully we can all respect each others views and opinions.


I feel there are a number of areas that the APS single turbo system is vastly superior compared to other single turbo system, I will list some of these points below, some may be obvious though other technical improvements may not be so I apologise upfront if I'm going over old ground.

1) The turbo location in the APS single is outside of the engine compartment, this position removes unwanted heat from the engine compartment which in turn provides more consistent power delivery under extreme engine opereating conditions. :thumbsup:

2)This APS turbo position also allows a shorter and smoother path for the exhaust gas flow to the turbocharger, this improves the turbocharger respone hence power across the entire rpm range.

3)In addition the APS turbo position allows sufficient space for a huge down pipe, (3.5'') this is not possible when the turbocharger is mounted in the engine bay on the front left hand side of the engine and over the A/C compressor.

Because the exhaust gas temp is extremely hot and still expanding when exiting the turbo charger the first 12 inches or so is very important from a down pipe size perspective, imho even a 3'' down pipe is under sized when the engine is producing such high Horsepower.

This engine bay turbo position limits the size of the turbo down pipe to approx 2.75'', not ideal for a turbo engine pushing towards approx 400 WHP, in addition this engine pipe position also generates tremendous heat into other components within the engine bay.

4)The APS single turbo system has a massive air to air bar and plate intercooler, this is critical to sustain consistent high horsepower in a FI application. Not all intercoolers are created equal and in this product APS engineers always ensures there's plenty of head room to easily cope with the high charge air temperature created when compressing the mass air flow.

5) No doubt the fuel system is also extremely critical on any FI engine and in this area I believe that APS engineers have specified a very thorough (if not the most thorough) fuel system which can support up to 500 WHP.

No other FI supplier that I know for the 350Z has been so thorough in terms of the base fuel system. Obviously this does cost APS additional money to produce though we are very serious about suppling a total fuel system solution for our customers. Ultimately to save the grief and frustration which follows if the total fuel system is not addressed correctly the first time around with FI. :thumbsup:

6) Finally the engine management system needs to be able to adust air fuel ratio, ignition timing RETARD, and be able to control and map the boost pressure across the entire rpm range. This technical approach then provides a very safe and powerful tuning strategy which is absolutely necessary for a turbocharged or supercharged engine. :thumbsup:

This has always been the main objective of APS, a very complete thoroughly engineered FI system which minimizes the grief and makes FI a pleasure for our customers rather than a head ache and a financial strain.

There are obviously many other advantages of the APS intercooled turbo system that I could discuss though these were just some thoughts going through my mind that I thought were worth sharing with you guys

Thanks and I trust this provides additional engineering back ground to the APS single intercooled turbo system approach.

Peter

 

Peter, how much time will it take to install the kit? I know this will be an educated guess.

 

I believe you wili find that the APS single turbo will be very ''easy'' to install, this was just one of the reasons that APS decided to develop and produce a high quality single intercooled turbo system.

The exhaust and intercooler plumbing on the APS single turbo system is a lot less complex than the plumbing associated with a turbocharger mounted high in the engine bay, designing and producing a turbo system to be an easy and quick install for the Z enthusiast was high on our priority list at APS.

There is no need to modify A/C lines, no A/C to regas, no grinding away or cutting of any other car components, it's truely a well thought out bolt on intercooled system that any person who likes turning a spanner could easily install, no special tools required just some spare time and loads of enthusiasm

Thanks

Peter

 

The time frame for the single turbo installation really depends on the skill level of the fitter, the tools available (do you have a car lift or not) and how much of a hurry your in.

I reckon I could install the entire APS single turbo system in around 10 to 11 hours using a lift though I have a fair amount of experience with the single turbo system now.

Over the last 6 months or so I've had a number of different turbochargers on the Z car during the development period and I have my tools well sorted out for the install. If it's the first time you have installed a complete turbo system and you're not an experienced tech working on cars daily then I reckon around 12 to 14 hours would be more the expected time frame, best estimate only.

Thanks

Peter

 

*If* this oil pump was to go out, would my motor or the turbo be in danger?

Do you guys (APS) provide any sort of warranty? (I believe Turbonetics is unconditional)

 

It's highly unlikely to ''go out'' and at worst the car would smoke as the oil would not drain to the oil pan quickly enough, again this is the reason that APS utilises an extremely high quality oil pump from the aero space industry, rated for 25,000 hours of continous useage, all good.

It's my view that the APS turbo position has many more benefits than negatives. For example with the APS turbo position approach a decent high flowing 3.5'' down pipe can be easily packaged where as the under hood turbo position (over the A/C compressor) is limited to a much smaller down pipe (around 2.75'') and even then the space is very ugly imho and likely to heat damage other ancillary components over time.

Yes, APS warrants the product to be free of any manufacturing defect for a 12/12 period.

Thanks

Peter

 

any idea on pricing of the aps single system? and how is the ecu tuning issue addressed? via reflash or is there some other tuning option that aps offers? It seems like I may be getting the APS system once it comes out.

 

Read here for comparisons:
https://my350z.com/forum/forced-induction/113659-aps-intercooled-single-turbo-vs-turbonetics-single-turbo.html

Or search for the bazillion page threads on each one individually.

 

Not sure where you are getting the info that the Turbonetics downpipe is smaller then 3". Its not ANYWHERE. As for the AC line its not exactly diffcult to do and would cost the average person under $100 to have done. Of course I'm the type of person that like to look at my investment. While there may be some draw backs to mounting the turbo in the engine bay there are positves.

(1) You get to actually see what you pay for and show it off (I know that is just plain facicious spelling?)

(2) Road debris damage. I have yet to see a picture of a shield to protect the turbo from road debris. Mounting the turbo that low without one is almost certain to cause some damage to it. I'd hit to be driving in the winter with the turbo that low.

(3) Oil scavenging. Due to the placement of the turbo scavenging oil from the turbo is going to require a pump be used. OK so maybe it happens to be the greatest wizdo uber oil pump on earth. So what if it fails? Just a little oil out your exhaust? Yeah thats best case scenario.

 

What can acutally happen if the pump goes out?

My concern also, besides submerging the turbo (in Houston it floods!) and having it crack, what if debris knocks an oil line off the turbo? Then I lose my motor and the turbo?

 

Aren't the turbos on the APS TT system mounted in a similar location? I haven't heard of any problems (road debris damage) with those.

 

I think the ST is much lower.

 

The TT kit mounts the turbos on the actual exhaust manifolds so no they are MUCH higher. Their ST kit mounts the turbo at the bottom of the car. If an oil pump failure does occur it could result in some turbo damage. Usually not cheap to fix. If something rips an oil line off so goodbye to your engine oil. Hopefully you catch it in time and see the pressure drop but if you dont and run your car out of oil...well you all know what happens at that point. And yes unless they have a VERY impressive and containing heat/debris shield you are going to have issues with road debris. Without more pics of the kit i can't say with 100% confidence but from looking at the pic on their webpage it looks like the turbine housing is the new lowest point of the car. At least in front. It doesn't matter how cool or efficient that turbo runs the turbine housing is going to be in the hundreds of degrees when operating. Every seen what happens when you rapidly cool a piece of metal from 500-700 degrees. Do that a few times and tell me there won't be damage. And if a shield is included then the only issue I see with that is the proxmity to the transmission housing. The heatshield would only make that worse as it will concentrate all the heat towards the tranny. Our trannies have issues to begin with I certainly dont want a 700 degree blow dryer making it worse shield or no shield.

 

now imagine that 700 degree blow drier behind your $900 xenon headlight assembly on top of other components next to your intercooler-to-TB intake plumbing (Turbonetics)... which is worse?

I understand Turbonetics has done testing and had no problems but I trust that APS is doing their own testing as well and will prove their designs.

 

Interesting points. I suppose until there are several systems on cars and they've been operating in the real world for some time, we won't know for sure the true merits and negatives of each. All the theories in the world mean nothing next to practical applications.

 

Agreed.

 

I don't have a final MSRP for the APS single turbo system yet though I should be able to confirm this MSRP around early April for you.

The engine management computer utlised is the same as in the APS TT system and has a CAS sheided cable also as stock equipment, all good.

The air fuel ratio, ignition timing retard and boost control is all mapped via this computer and the APS single turbo system will be a plug and play system with a safe tuning map for 91 octane fuel pre-loaded ready for action/fun.

Thanks

Peter