Cooling Mist water injection....
10-13-2005, 12:05 PM
#61
hehe no no .... Seriously...all I kow about water injection, I learned in the last 7 days. There are some incredibly interesting articles out there on it, historical and technical. waterinjection.info is a great place to start. Combine what you learn there with a little commonsense...and that's all you need.
10-13-2005, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by GurgenPB
but if oyu have an emanage ultimate or plan to use it, just be conservative with the WI until someone comes up with a map for it.
10-13-2005, 01:14 PM
#63
Gurgen,
I don't have my electronics hooked up yet. But I'm thinking it is possible to create a linear coefficent for the MAF output. As long as injector inlet pressure remains constant, it is easy to create a correlation of MAF voltage to the observed IPW.
Map Injector EPW Vs Maf voltage to create a linear relation of voltage to air mass flow.
Its that simple. Corrections can be made by normalizing to the observed A/F ratio.
Another way to try it... You can infer a air mass flow rate based on injector duty cycle if you normalize to the A/F ratio. You don't really need a MAF voltage when you have injector duty cycle and A/F ratio!
And both injector EPW and A/F are linear and easy to interpret.
Having a linear coefficent could make life a lot easier when trying to adjust water flow rate based on air mass flow rate.
I'll create a correlation as soon as I get the EU and Innovate hooked up.
I don't have my electronics hooked up yet. But I'm thinking it is possible to create a linear coefficent for the MAF output. As long as injector inlet pressure remains constant, it is easy to create a correlation of MAF voltage to the observed IPW.
Map Injector EPW Vs Maf voltage to create a linear relation of voltage to air mass flow.
Its that simple. Corrections can be made by normalizing to the observed A/F ratio.
Another way to try it... You can infer a air mass flow rate based on injector duty cycle if you normalize to the A/F ratio. You don't really need a MAF voltage when you have injector duty cycle and A/F ratio!
And both injector EPW and A/F are linear and easy to interpret.
Having a linear coefficent could make life a lot easier when trying to adjust water flow rate based on air mass flow rate.
I'll create a correlation as soon as I get the EU and Innovate hooked up.
10-13-2005, 01:36 PM
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Gurgen in reponse to part of your response above:
"...and you are delivering the same flow of water, you an see how the WFR will be falling off as you reach redline."
From my experience with many years of WI on several aps, this "is" actually part of the behaviour you want. It has been proven that an engine is more prone to detonation during "Peak TQ" conditions . If you note the shape of most gas engine TQ curves (FI-VQ included) you will find that peak TQ occurs mid band and tapers towards redline. In order to gain the maximum effective and minimal water/methanol consumption you actually want the water/fuel ratio ot taper above mid band out to redline. This is why simple on/off boost referenced systems still work quite effectively. Now in some cases what can occur if full optimum mid band water rate is delivered too low in the rpm band, the engine can "lay down" due to too high a Water to fuel ratio. This is why a duak nozzle or a simple ramped approach is the next best step . Also not that the reason dual nozzles are mostly used in very high output applications is that a single huge nozzle at a reasnable pump psi ~140psi does not provide ideal atomization. Two smaller nozzle proved both better atomizationa dj higer aggregate flow.
A full independant 3d mapped technique "independent" of fuel injector duty cycle can be ideal , but IMO the small added benefit does not justify the cost nor complexity in a street driven vehical.
"...and you are delivering the same flow of water, you an see how the WFR will be falling off as you reach redline."
From my experience with many years of WI on several aps, this "is" actually part of the behaviour you want. It has been proven that an engine is more prone to detonation during "Peak TQ" conditions . If you note the shape of most gas engine TQ curves (FI-VQ included) you will find that peak TQ occurs mid band and tapers towards redline. In order to gain the maximum effective and minimal water/methanol consumption you actually want the water/fuel ratio ot taper above mid band out to redline. This is why simple on/off boost referenced systems still work quite effectively. Now in some cases what can occur if full optimum mid band water rate is delivered too low in the rpm band, the engine can "lay down" due to too high a Water to fuel ratio. This is why a duak nozzle or a simple ramped approach is the next best step . Also not that the reason dual nozzles are mostly used in very high output applications is that a single huge nozzle at a reasnable pump psi ~140psi does not provide ideal atomization. Two smaller nozzle proved both better atomizationa dj higer aggregate flow.
A full independant 3d mapped technique "independent" of fuel injector duty cycle can be ideal , but IMO the small added benefit does not justify the cost nor complexity in a street driven vehical.
10-13-2005, 01:59 PM
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We were asked by one of your members to reply to this thread. We are very busy and dont have time to review this entire thread. If you have a specific question feel free to ask us here and I will reply as time permits. A background on our company. We have been in the business for about 4 years, been selling for about 2. We are located in Atlanta, GA and our retail outlet will be opening shortly. We offer a 90 day warranty + 7 day a week support. We have dealers in many countries and across the US.
The systems you see on our site are based off of boost. There is an exclusive 1-25 psi boost switch that comes with the kit. You can adjust the switch from 1-25. When it hits your adjust point it will start to spray, when it drops below it will turn off. We have seen over 100 HP for diesels and as much as 87 HP on a car (precision dynotune in new jersey got 87 HP out of a new EVO with our kit).
We have every conceivable option from brass water filters to poly. From Nylon hose, to synthetic to stainless steel teflon.
Cars that have over 500 HP need 2 nozzles.
I read some comments about progressive controllers on one of the earlier pages.
We have a tuning controller that will be out shortly. These will be sold as part of a kit and individually on our site. Those of you that have purchased a kit from us will easily be able to purchase this controller and add to your kit when it becomes available. Infact, we have a limited number of controllers on our first run, but those that purchase a kit now will get first shot at the controller before the public. I cant get into specifics about how it works, other than to say its the most advanced controller on the market.
anyone with questions please let us know. We have a forum on our site with questions and answers also. Also, we go by the name Coolingmist rather than Cooling Mist. Thanks!
The systems you see on our site are based off of boost. There is an exclusive 1-25 psi boost switch that comes with the kit. You can adjust the switch from 1-25. When it hits your adjust point it will start to spray, when it drops below it will turn off. We have seen over 100 HP for diesels and as much as 87 HP on a car (precision dynotune in new jersey got 87 HP out of a new EVO with our kit).
We have every conceivable option from brass water filters to poly. From Nylon hose, to synthetic to stainless steel teflon.
Cars that have over 500 HP need 2 nozzles.
I read some comments about progressive controllers on one of the earlier pages.
We have a tuning controller that will be out shortly. These will be sold as part of a kit and individually on our site. Those of you that have purchased a kit from us will easily be able to purchase this controller and add to your kit when it becomes available. Infact, we have a limited number of controllers on our first run, but those that purchase a kit now will get first shot at the controller before the public. I cant get into specifics about how it works, other than to say its the most advanced controller on the market.
anyone with questions please let us know. We have a forum on our site with questions and answers also. Also, we go by the name Coolingmist rather than Cooling Mist. Thanks!
Last edited by coolingmist; 10-13-2005 at 02:23 PM.
10-13-2005, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by atlsupdawg#2
002-M-P,
Don't mean to hijac your thread here bro. Been wondering something and wanted to see if anyone's got any idea.
I know most people locate the injection nozzle(s) close to the throttle body (as did I) on the intake tubing. Do you think it would make a difference if the nozzle(s) were tapped into the intake plenum itself? Seems like you'd have a wider dispersement of the cooling fluid if you sprayed into the manifold and less restriction from the throttle body (if there is a restriction at all).
Don't mean to hijac your thread here bro. Been wondering something and wanted to see if anyone's got any idea.
I know most people locate the injection nozzle(s) close to the throttle body (as did I) on the intake tubing. Do you think it would make a difference if the nozzle(s) were tapped into the intake plenum itself? Seems like you'd have a wider dispersement of the cooling fluid if you sprayed into the manifold and less restriction from the throttle body (if there is a restriction at all).
10-13-2005, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by atlsupdawg#2
G3po you seem to be the resident expert on WI so would you mind touching on this theory here?? 002-M-P posted Coolingmist's install directions but I kinda wanted a brief explanation on why this would or wouldn't work..
10-13-2005, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by coolingmist
We were asked by one of your members to reply to this thread. We are very busy and dont have time to review this entire thread. If you have a specific question feel free to ask us here and I will reply as time permits. A background on our company. We have been in the business for about 4 years, been selling for about 2. We are located in Atlanta, GA and our retail outlet will be opening shortly. We offer a 90 day warranty + 7 day a week support. We have dealers in many countries and across the US.
The systems you see on our site are based off of boost. There is an exclusive 1-25 psi boost switch that comes with the kit. You can adjust the switch from 1-25. When it hits your adjust point it will start to spray, when it drops below it will turn off. We have seen over 100 HP for diesels and as much as 87 HP on a car (precision dynotune in new jersey got 87 HP out of a new EVO with our kit).
We have every conceivable option from brass water filters to poly. From Nylon hose, to synthetic to stainless steel teflon.
Cars that have over 500 HP need 2 nozzles.
I read some comments about progressive controllers on one of the earlier pages.
We have a tuning controller that will be out shortly. These will be sold as part of a kit and individually on our site. Those of you that have purchased a kit from us will easily be able to purchase this controller and add to your kit when it becomes available. Infact, we have a limited number of controllers on our first run, but those that purchase a kit now will get first shot at the controller before the public. I cant get into specifics about how it works, other than to say its the most advanced controller on the market.
anyone with questions please let us know. We have a forum on our site with questions and answers also. Also, we go by the name Coolingmist rather than Cooling Mist. Thanks!
The systems you see on our site are based off of boost. There is an exclusive 1-25 psi boost switch that comes with the kit. You can adjust the switch from 1-25. When it hits your adjust point it will start to spray, when it drops below it will turn off. We have seen over 100 HP for diesels and as much as 87 HP on a car (precision dynotune in new jersey got 87 HP out of a new EVO with our kit).
We have every conceivable option from brass water filters to poly. From Nylon hose, to synthetic to stainless steel teflon.
Cars that have over 500 HP need 2 nozzles.
I read some comments about progressive controllers on one of the earlier pages.
We have a tuning controller that will be out shortly. These will be sold as part of a kit and individually on our site. Those of you that have purchased a kit from us will easily be able to purchase this controller and add to your kit when it becomes available. Infact, we have a limited number of controllers on our first run, but those that purchase a kit now will get first shot at the controller before the public. I cant get into specifics about how it works, other than to say its the most advanced controller on the market.
anyone with questions please let us know. We have a forum on our site with questions and answers also. Also, we go by the name Coolingmist rather than Cooling Mist. Thanks!
Cool . so what info will you squirt out the serial port?
10-13-2005, 04:33 PM
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This is what I was ineffectively trying to say. Glad "Coolingmist" is on here. What is the stategy with your new controller?
Originally Posted by G3po
A full independant 3d mapped technique "independent" of fuel injector duty cycle can be ideal , but IMO the small added benefit does not justify the cost nor complexity in a street driven vehical.
10-14-2005, 12:02 PM
#71
Originally Posted by Gman2004
What makes using WI different with the Emange Ultimate as compared to the other forms of engine management?
Originally Posted by Hydrazine
Gurgen,
I don't have my electronics hooked up yet. But I'm thinking it is possible to create a linear coefficent for the MAF output. As long as injector inlet pressure remains constant, it is easy to create a correlation of MAF voltage to the observed IPW.
Map Injector EPW Vs Maf voltage to create a linear relation of voltage to air mass flow.
Its that simple. Corrections can be made by normalizing to the observed A/F ratio.
Another way to try it... You can infer a air mass flow rate based on injector duty cycle if you normalize to the A/F ratio. You don't really need a MAF voltage when you have injector duty cycle and A/F ratio!
And both injector EPW and A/F are linear and easy to interpret.
Having a linear coefficent could make life a lot easier when trying to adjust water flow rate based on air mass flow rate.
I'll create a correlation as soon as I get the EU and Innovate hooked up.
I don't have my electronics hooked up yet. But I'm thinking it is possible to create a linear coefficent for the MAF output. As long as injector inlet pressure remains constant, it is easy to create a correlation of MAF voltage to the observed IPW.
Map Injector EPW Vs Maf voltage to create a linear relation of voltage to air mass flow.
Its that simple. Corrections can be made by normalizing to the observed A/F ratio.
Another way to try it... You can infer a air mass flow rate based on injector duty cycle if you normalize to the A/F ratio. You don't really need a MAF voltage when you have injector duty cycle and A/F ratio!
And both injector EPW and A/F are linear and easy to interpret.
Having a linear coefficent could make life a lot easier when trying to adjust water flow rate based on air mass flow rate.
I'll create a correlation as soon as I get the EU and Innovate hooked up.
You are right... that setup is very mch possible. Inf act, the best way would probably be to input fuel pressure as an aux mappable input and combine that with IPW information...and oyu are all set.
However, setting up a 2D IPW-only referenced system is not a bad way to go either.. it's just that at higher boost applications, your ratio will be lower...but you will still be receiving constant WFR.
In fact, Tony, I just thought of something else...something that will allow one to use the cheaper cooling mist solution with a 0-5v input. The Innovate! AuxBox modulates all of the inputs into 0-5v analog outs, and these are available for tapping if you are using te digital serial LogChain. So, one of the channels that is configured to receive IPW for logging purposes, is then converted into a 0-5v output. One can just tap that. BTW...you can do the same with the MAP sensor output...which is a 3 bar MAP sensor. Hence, you will no longer need to spend additional $100+ for a map sensor for an EU setup...just tap auxbox output into the pressure harness signal/ground!!! This is what I am doing.
10-14-2005, 12:16 PM
#72
Originally Posted by GurgenPB
Hey Tony,
You are right... that setup is very mch possible. Inf act, the best way would probably be to input fuel pressure as an aux mappable input and combine that with IPW information...and oyu are all set.
However, setting up a 2D IPW-only referenced system is not a bad way to go either.. it's just that at higher boost applications, your ratio will be lower...but you will still be receiving constant WFR.
In fact, Tony, I just thought of something else...something that will allow one to use the cheaper cooling mist solution with a 0-5v input. The Innovate! AuxBox modulates all of the inputs into 0-5v analog outs, and these are available for tapping if you are using te digital serial LogChain. So, one of the channels that is configured to receive IPW for logging purposes, is then converted into a 0-5v output. One can just tap that. BTW...you can do the same with the MAP sensor output...which is a 3 bar MAP sensor. Hence, you will no longer need to spend additional $100+ for a map sensor for an EU setup...just tap auxbox output into the pressure harness signal/ground!!! This is what I am doing.
You are right... that setup is very mch possible. Inf act, the best way would probably be to input fuel pressure as an aux mappable input and combine that with IPW information...and oyu are all set.
However, setting up a 2D IPW-only referenced system is not a bad way to go either.. it's just that at higher boost applications, your ratio will be lower...but you will still be receiving constant WFR.
In fact, Tony, I just thought of something else...something that will allow one to use the cheaper cooling mist solution with a 0-5v input. The Innovate! AuxBox modulates all of the inputs into 0-5v analog outs, and these are available for tapping if you are using te digital serial LogChain. So, one of the channels that is configured to receive IPW for logging purposes, is then converted into a 0-5v output. One can just tap that. BTW...you can do the same with the MAP sensor output...which is a 3 bar MAP sensor. Hence, you will no longer need to spend additional $100+ for a map sensor for an EU setup...just tap auxbox output into the pressure harness signal/ground!!! This is what I am doing.
The combination of EU with the Innovate AuxBox should provide powerfull tools for new ways of engine management.
I really need to get the electronics hooked up. I have so many cool projects to dig into.
10-14-2005, 12:33 PM
#73
Originally Posted by Hydrazine
Hey I like it! 0-5 V output not just for logging but also as a control signal. And finish it off with a variable duty cycle output from the EU.
The combination of EU with the Innovate AuxBox should provide powerfull tools for new ways of engine management.
I really need to get the electronics hooked up. I have so many cool projects to dig into.
The combination of EU with the Innovate AuxBox should provide powerfull tools for new ways of engine management.
I really need to get the electronics hooked up. I have so many cool projects to dig into.
If you think that's cool...just wait for Innovate's engine management to come out!!!! Good stuff, with their usual genious twists.
10-14-2005, 10:35 PM
#74
For the APS guys. I have been informed that there is a Unichip module that can control a W/M injection. It can be used with the Unichip piggyback that the APS kit uses. Similar to the boost module.
I might be using this on my build. Will get more details on this in the next few days.
I might be using this on my build. Will get more details on this in the next few days.
10-14-2005, 11:13 PM
#75
Originally Posted by Hydrazine
Hey I like it! 0-5 V output not just for logging but also as a control signal. And finish it off with a variable duty cycle output from the EU.
The combination of EU with the Innovate AuxBox should provide powerfull tools for new ways of engine management.
I really need to get the electronics hooked up. I have so many cool projects to dig into.
The combination of EU with the Innovate AuxBox should provide powerfull tools for new ways of engine management.
I really need to get the electronics hooked up. I have so many cool projects to dig into.
Innovate is also going to be having a ViisalBasic-based programming feature that you can use to program the processor inside the AuxBox (next gen AuxBox from what i am hearing) to calculate various values and output conditional signals...precisely what you and I discussed when i first demoed the system for you.
I a mgetting ready to do individual cylinder EGT to really nail down AFR's, and WI for that matter. If I go with Aquamist, I think I will do individual cylinder WI injection nozzles.
Man...only if I had more time. This school/work thing get int he way tooooo much. j/k
If we only had more time....
10-16-2005, 09:02 AM
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Sounds like you have some great projects going on. I'd like to see what your findings are on cylinder egt's. This will be great info for everyone. Thanks for puting in all this r&d!
Originally Posted by GurgenPB
I a mgetting ready to do individual cylinder EGT to really nail down AFR's, and WI for that matter. If I go with Aquamist, I think I will do individual cylinder WI injection nozzles.
Man...only if I had more time. This school/work thing get int he way tooooo much. j/k
Man...only if I had more time. This school/work thing get int he way tooooo much. j/k
12-04-2005, 08:44 PM
#78
ok, call me stupid but I've been hearing about this water injection thing and I guess I just don't know enough about it.
Where does it spray the water/alcohol? Into the intake??? If so, I thought water in the combustion chamber was deadly for the motor and bent the rods upon compresson of the pistons?
Am I missing something here?
Please explain
Where does it spray the water/alcohol? Into the intake??? If so, I thought water in the combustion chamber was deadly for the motor and bent the rods upon compresson of the pistons?
Am I missing something here?
Please explain
12-04-2005, 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by tecni
ok, call me stupid but I've been hearing about this water injection thing and I guess I just don't know enough about it.
Where does it spray the water/alcohol? Into the intake??? If so, I thought water in the combustion chamber was deadly for the motor and bent the rods upon compresson of the pistons?
Am I missing something here?
Please explain
Where does it spray the water/alcohol? Into the intake??? If so, I thought water in the combustion chamber was deadly for the motor and bent the rods upon compresson of the pistons?
Am I missing something here?
Please explain
I still have actually not used my WI system. When the car was on the dyno for tuning the ambient air temps were about 76 degrees. My intake temps at the throttle body ranged between 83 and 88 degrees. With this I realized that there was no reason to run the water injection until I ran more boost or until it was much hotter outside. The Greddy intercooler is just so incredibly efficient, there is very little need for W/I until higher boost.
12-04-2005, 09:13 PM
#80
Originally Posted by tecni
ok, call me stupid but I've been hearing about this water injection thing and I guess I just don't know enough about it.
Where does it spray the water/alcohol? Into the intake??? If so, I thought water in the combustion chamber was deadly for the motor and bent the rods upon compresson of the pistons?
Am I missing something here?
Please explain
Where does it spray the water/alcohol? Into the intake??? If so, I thought water in the combustion chamber was deadly for the motor and bent the rods upon compresson of the pistons?
Am I missing something here?
Please explain