Utec and high hp numbers.
01-16-2007 | 04:59 PM
#201
Jermaine,
I had a little hiccup that I experienced with the Utec that you might be able to help with. With the same rpms, same load cel, a change of throttle postion would change the mixture.So at part throttle we would see lets say 11.8 to 1.At half throttle we would see 12.4 to 1 and at 100% throttle we would see 12.8 to 1 which was getting a bit leaner then I would like. Any thoughts? I worked around it by setting up the mixture alot richer at part throttle so the mixture would be ok at 100% throttle.
I had a little hiccup that I experienced with the Utec that you might be able to help with. With the same rpms, same load cel, a change of throttle postion would change the mixture.So at part throttle we would see lets say 11.8 to 1.At half throttle we would see 12.4 to 1 and at 100% throttle we would see 12.8 to 1 which was getting a bit leaner then I would like. Any thoughts? I worked around it by setting up the mixture alot richer at part throttle so the mixture would be ok at 100% throttle.
Originally Posted by BlackTuner
Lets chop it up!
I really hate to say it, but any hiccups in the tune part throttle or not they are not due to resolution limitations. I tune both FCON and UTEC, hiccups can be found in both units. If you feeling like you are capable you can always tuned the Z from idle to peak boost. Certain features with the UTEC allow you to be a bit lazy. But lets be honest tuning doesn't stop on the dyno with a flat AFR curve and some high hp numbers. Allowing the factory ecu to still drive the car is an strength as well as a weakness. The strength's of the UTEC is that anyone who has a laptop is willing to play with tuning them CAN, when honestly they probably shouldn’t be touching anything ECU related. So at times you have people who shouldn't be tuning the radio in your car, now they are running around touting the crown. Making an engine management that is as powerful and complicated as the UTEC for a fraction of what you pay for an FCON is just ground breaking. The Retail price of the UTEC is $1049 and if the FCON was accessible to each and every single one of the price ****** on the internet it would either be just as inexpensive or it wouldn't exist.
The biggest feature of the UTEC is that it allows you to keep your factory ecu in the car so you can pass emissions. More than half of the board on the UTEC is devoted to just making sure the car runs without CEL's. It is much more complicated to do that than to just drive the car and give everyone the features that they do not exactly understand or when it comes down to it does not make a big difference in the way the car runs at all.
I think the term we are looking for here is interpolating... If you are going to run 20 psi, you can scale the map so you are making best use of the 10 columns. On a Subaru we push over 30 psi, and over 500whp Stock block NO PROBLEMS! All that really matters is RPM and Boost... platform doesn't matter!
I have played with this feature, it good in theory if you aren't confident in your tuning ability. But most well versed tuners will might use it while on the dyno and turn it off when the customer picks up the vehicle. Why, because the $200 o2 fails/often and any values it learns good or bad are applied to it's map. Which can lead to poor drive ability or a damaged motor. It's a good thing you can set it authority right?
Yeah, that's great while low impedance injectors are cheap, but you are paying 4k to have the ability to use them. The UTEC does not allow use of them because we want you to be able to revert back to stock very easily. 90% of the customers will already have the proper injectors that are made for the car.
It's nice when accurate over boost protection gets a bad rap. I think what you mean is there is not a time & psi limit on the over boost function. As we do not allow 1 millisecond of over boosting to keep you from hurting your engine. If your car goes over the limit at all, over boost is enabled.
Jermaine~
www.turboxs.com
301-977-4727
I really hate to say it, but any hiccups in the tune part throttle or not they are not due to resolution limitations. I tune both FCON and UTEC, hiccups can be found in both units. If you feeling like you are capable you can always tuned the Z from idle to peak boost. Certain features with the UTEC allow you to be a bit lazy. But lets be honest tuning doesn't stop on the dyno with a flat AFR curve and some high hp numbers. Allowing the factory ecu to still drive the car is an strength as well as a weakness. The strength's of the UTEC is that anyone who has a laptop is willing to play with tuning them CAN, when honestly they probably shouldn’t be touching anything ECU related. So at times you have people who shouldn't be tuning the radio in your car, now they are running around touting the crown. Making an engine management that is as powerful and complicated as the UTEC for a fraction of what you pay for an FCON is just ground breaking. The Retail price of the UTEC is $1049 and if the FCON was accessible to each and every single one of the price ****** on the internet it would either be just as inexpensive or it wouldn't exist.
The biggest feature of the UTEC is that it allows you to keep your factory ecu in the car so you can pass emissions. More than half of the board on the UTEC is devoted to just making sure the car runs without CEL's. It is much more complicated to do that than to just drive the car and give everyone the features that they do not exactly understand or when it comes down to it does not make a big difference in the way the car runs at all.
I think the term we are looking for here is interpolating... If you are going to run 20 psi, you can scale the map so you are making best use of the 10 columns. On a Subaru we push over 30 psi, and over 500whp Stock block NO PROBLEMS! All that really matters is RPM and Boost... platform doesn't matter!
I have played with this feature, it good in theory if you aren't confident in your tuning ability. But most well versed tuners will might use it while on the dyno and turn it off when the customer picks up the vehicle. Why, because the $200 o2 fails/often and any values it learns good or bad are applied to it's map. Which can lead to poor drive ability or a damaged motor. It's a good thing you can set it authority right?
Yeah, that's great while low impedance injectors are cheap, but you are paying 4k to have the ability to use them. The UTEC does not allow use of them because we want you to be able to revert back to stock very easily. 90% of the customers will already have the proper injectors that are made for the car.
It's nice when accurate over boost protection gets a bad rap. I think what you mean is there is not a time & psi limit on the over boost function. As we do not allow 1 millisecond of over boosting to keep you from hurting your engine. If your car goes over the limit at all, over boost is enabled.
Jermaine~
www.turboxs.com
301-977-4727
01-16-2007 | 05:02 PM
#202
Originally Posted by wtf no turbo
Fight odds, someone had to do it.
Julian vs Alberto-Julian in the big early favorite here 8 to 1 for the mere fact bert is a punk and Julian has guns as a last resort.
MaxZ vs Alberto-With the substantial reach advantage here I have to say Max 5-3
Oldschool vs Gman-Well Gman definitly has the size advantage here but never bet against a Marine. Oldscool 3to2
Dutchboy vs Dutchboy No comment on this but it will be a snoozer.
Sharif vs Turbotim- Have to go with Tim here since he is not scared to tune a UTEC
Julian vs Alberto-Julian in the big early favorite here 8 to 1 for the mere fact bert is a punk and Julian has guns as a last resort.
MaxZ vs Alberto-With the substantial reach advantage here I have to say Max 5-3
Oldschool vs Gman-Well Gman definitly has the size advantage here but never bet against a Marine. Oldscool 3to2
Dutchboy vs Dutchboy No comment on this but it will be a snoozer.
Sharif vs Turbotim- Have to go with Tim here since he is not scared to tune a UTEC
I have to say that the match between Sharif and myself is quite unfair. I will over power him with the smell of my flatulence
01-16-2007 | 05:08 PM
#203
Bla bla bla,
I paid $700 for my used UTEC and made 580whp on pump gas , 626whp with 50/50 c16 race fuel and 729whp w/100hp shot on my daily driven g35 and you are going to ask me if it is worth it. UTEC all the way and I did post all my dynos.
BTW I did my tuning with a friend that owns a Subaru tuning shop and had no prior VQ experience, talk about user friendly.
Anyway we could write whatever we want but who's going to show the #s, I already did and next week I'm going back in search of the 800s
I paid $700 for my used UTEC and made 580whp on pump gas , 626whp with 50/50 c16 race fuel and 729whp w/100hp shot on my daily driven g35 and you are going to ask me if it is worth it. UTEC all the way and I did post all my dynos.
BTW I did my tuning with a friend that owns a Subaru tuning shop and had no prior VQ experience, talk about user friendly.
Anyway we could write whatever we want but who's going to show the #s, I already did and next week I'm going back in search of the 800s
01-16-2007 | 05:12 PM
#204
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 668
Likes: 0
From: Houston, Texas
Originally Posted by Jokestrap
Yeah, pretty much repeating what I am being told along with checking out what most of the rally and race guys use; Motec and FCON. I mostly just repeat what the shops tell me once I have spent an unGodly amount of money so that hopefully everyone will agree with me in an effort to make myself feel better.
Seriously, you are not really going to get into all the reasons why the UTEC is better than some of the best equipment available to racers and tuners are you?
Go ahead and take a position against me because you assume that there is no possible way that I can intelligently, with experience, explain why the FCON is better than the UTEC. You're right, experience with both and the differences in detail between the two, hands down make the FCON better...If that's what you are expecting, then forget about it. Truly, you would be the expert in your field, not me. Everything I say is simply based on a middle ground between experience and research. On the other hand my friend, you should easily be able to explain why the UTEC is better than the FCON or why the FCON is not better than the UTEC. So, with that said, I really would like to know why the companies that race for a living are choosing the wrong EMS.
Seriously, you are not really going to get into all the reasons why the UTEC is better than some of the best equipment available to racers and tuners are you?
Go ahead and take a position against me because you assume that there is no possible way that I can intelligently, with experience, explain why the FCON is better than the UTEC. You're right, experience with both and the differences in detail between the two, hands down make the FCON better...If that's what you are expecting, then forget about it. Truly, you would be the expert in your field, not me. Everything I say is simply based on a middle ground between experience and research. On the other hand my friend, you should easily be able to explain why the UTEC is better than the FCON or why the FCON is not better than the UTEC. So, with that said, I really would like to know why the companies that race for a living are choosing the wrong EMS.
So, you asked me to substantiate it with experience. I would have repeated what I read, heard combined with what I have experienced with my own car.
The big question here: Do you have a response, like the one Sharif had, that states why, exactly, in your experience with both UTEC and FCON why the FCON unit is not better/safer.
All we are looking for is advice from the guys that should know. We are just power hungry people with a little money. You guys are the experts.
MRC, just tell us 4 reasons why the UTEC is better/safer than the FCON. If you cannot, than the FCON is clearly better/safer. Not in my opinion or experience but Sharif's.
4 Reasons, that's it. Don't fight it, don't change the subject, don't attack, don't make fun of me or anyone else. Just simply answer the same question you asked of me that started this whole thing to begin with.
01-16-2007 | 05:14 PM
#205
Originally Posted by maximumsportZ
Only cowards run to their water guns, come on, I'm indian I have bigger guns than you.
Man up so I can drop you on your shoulders.
Man up so I can drop you on your shoulders.
anyway.. why should i waste my time fighting you when i can shoot you
01-16-2007 | 05:16 PM
#206
Originally Posted by Jokestrap
MRC, just tell us 4 reasons why the UTEC is better/safer than the FCON. If you cannot, than the FCON is clearly better/safer. Not in my opinion or experience but Sharif's..
do yourself a favor.. if you ever get arrested... say nothing.. just call a lawyer right away
01-16-2007 | 05:22 PM
#207
Originally Posted by Jokestrap
MRC, this has gone no where...
01-16-2007 | 05:29 PM
#208
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 668
Likes: 0
From: Houston, Texas
Originally Posted by doug
he never said it was.. he meerly asked you why you said the F-Con was.. to which you still couldn't answer the question.. you had to wait for someone to come and bail you out...
do yourself a favor.. if you ever get arrested... say nothing.. just call a lawyer right away
do yourself a favor.. if you ever get arrested... say nothing.. just call a lawyer right away
MRC doesn't need a lawyer to defend him, he can apparently just call you.
Okay, "he said this, then you said that". All that said and done. How was he going to refute anything in my response to that when he, himself has no experience with the FCON. I happened to own one and I do have experience as to why it so good. The highest praised tuners that have tuned both are the ones to ask not me. He is an "expert" in his field. He would be expected to be able to answer that kind of a question. I can not answer that question without giving experiences with my car/tune and quoting others. I can not!!!!
The question is, since MRC is an expert, can even answer his own question or was he just calling me out looking for a fight. That is it. Can he answer his own question. Since he is not authorized to have the "experience" with the FCON then how can he possibly have the experience with both. 4 reasons!!
01-16-2007 | 06:03 PM
#209
You are asking the wrong question.
All that MRC was saying, is that whatever were your expectations from the FCON, all of that could have been done with a much cheaper system (UTEC). In order to make a statement about what he can or cannot do with a UTEC, he does not need to have any FCON experience.
However IF Julian is correct about UTEC being an adequate EMS for your application, it means that you have overpayed like crazy. Of course you would not admit to that. Unfortunately there were too many hard headed people on this thread and old rivalries got carried in and you know the rest.
And somewhere along the line this has turned into the biggest muscle-flexing event in the internet history. No clue how though...
That's the last 11 pages in a nutshell.
All that MRC was saying, is that whatever were your expectations from the FCON, all of that could have been done with a much cheaper system (UTEC). In order to make a statement about what he can or cannot do with a UTEC, he does not need to have any FCON experience.
However IF Julian is correct about UTEC being an adequate EMS for your application, it means that you have overpayed like crazy. Of course you would not admit to that. Unfortunately there were too many hard headed people on this thread and old rivalries got carried in and you know the rest.
And somewhere along the line this has turned into the biggest muscle-flexing event in the internet history. No clue how though...
That's the last 11 pages in a nutshell.
01-16-2007 | 06:11 PM
#210
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 668
Likes: 0
From: Houston, Texas
Originally Posted by Oleg
You are asking the wrong question.
All that MRC was saying, is that whatever were your expectations from the FCON, all of that could have been done with a much cheaper system (UTEC). In order to make a statement about what he can or cannot do with a UTEC, he does not need to have any FCON experience.
However IF Julian is correct about UTEC being an adequate EMS for your application, it means that you have overpayed like crazy. Of course you would not admit to that. Unfortunately there were too many hard headed people on this thread and old rivalries got carried in and you know the rest.
And somewhere along the line this has turned into the biggest muscle-flexing event in the internet history. No clue how though...
That's the last 11 pages in a nutshell.
All that MRC was saying, is that whatever were your expectations from the FCON, all of that could have been done with a much cheaper system (UTEC). In order to make a statement about what he can or cannot do with a UTEC, he does not need to have any FCON experience.
However IF Julian is correct about UTEC being an adequate EMS for your application, it means that you have overpayed like crazy. Of course you would not admit to that. Unfortunately there were too many hard headed people on this thread and old rivalries got carried in and you know the rest.
And somewhere along the line this has turned into the biggest muscle-flexing event in the internet history. No clue how though...
That's the last 11 pages in a nutshell.
What the heck happened on the whole muscle deal. Cracks me up...
01-16-2007 | 06:18 PM
#211
Originally Posted by Jokestrap
What the heck happened on the whole muscle deal. Cracks me up...
01-16-2007 | 06:27 PM
#213
Talking with my tuner today about different EMS's. One of the things he told me (we were mainly discussing MOTEC vs HKS), that seems the best selling point of all, is there are a VERY limited ammount of people that can tune the HKS. With that in mind you start running into certian considerations you HAVE to make with it(HKS). Where as in this case, you have a larger selection of tuners that can work the UTEC. For the most part, tuning each car is roughly the same (mind you, im being very general here) but its about timing and fuel. Which EMS you personally decide is your choice.
I think its great that we have all these different tuners, and all these different choices so we CAN come here and argue about which is better and for what reasons. Just remember back 2 or 3 years ago when we didn't have ANY choices. As a side note, a bit back someone mentioned that the HKS was the only EMS with 32x32, I thought MOTEC did and the Hydra is(was) supposed to? Maybe I just read wrong trying to pick out the good info from all the craziness? Is the MOTEC a step up even from the HKS? Would really like to know as it intrests me very much.
Thanks!
I think its great that we have all these different tuners, and all these different choices so we CAN come here and argue about which is better and for what reasons. Just remember back 2 or 3 years ago when we didn't have ANY choices. As a side note, a bit back someone mentioned that the HKS was the only EMS with 32x32, I thought MOTEC did and the Hydra is(was) supposed to? Maybe I just read wrong trying to pick out the good info from all the craziness? Is the MOTEC a step up even from the HKS? Would really like to know as it intrests me very much.
Thanks!
01-16-2007 | 07:30 PM
#215
Originally Posted by Jokestrap
Hahahaha with the muscle-flexing comment. Dude, I will definitely admit that I have overpaid (spelling above, doh) for an EMS for my power at 520+. But my tuner knew what I was looking for. I told him 700 or so eventually. Now that the first grind of cams are out for the rev-up, the car is going back in for a freshup on the low end, cams, and Ferrera valve train in order to get there. That is what I came through the front door to obtain one and a half years ago.
What the heck happened on the whole muscle deal. Cracks me up...
What the heck happened on the whole muscle deal. Cracks me up...
Anyway, you should have stated to begin with that you will be eventually going for crazy power. That would be a different story and it would probably not have escalated...
But then again, then we'd miss the meat market party...
01-16-2007 | 07:32 PM
#216
Originally Posted by Jokestrap
MRC, just tell us 4 reasons why the UTEC is better/safer than the FCON.
OK, so that is perfectly clear, here are my reasons for choosing a UTEC for a car with your power goals.
1) Price.....1/3 rd the price of an FCON(could spend the money saved elsewhere, like better head studs,headwork,cams, or something that will help make more power at lower boost levels..)
2) Tunability- The end user or other qualified tuners can re tune the car without the extensive road trips to one of the 11 HKS protuners in the USA.
3)Dealer Support-Currently Turbo XS has over 200 US dealers and tuners, and a fully staffed technical hotline available 5 days a week..
4)On the Fly MAP switching-the availability to have several maps for several different fuel and boost levels and driving conditions, at the touch of a button by the owner/end user.
5)accurate Knock retard- Utilizes factory knock sensors to accurately detect and prevent engine knocking by retarding timing. Also applies a GLOBAL MAP retard when knocking is detected, by pulling timing over the entire MAP for that drive cycle.
6)Data logging- Allows the end user to datalog and monitor all of your engines vitals on a daily basis.
7)Programmable shift light- Add the turbo XS shift light and program it to light up at your preset RPM points.
8)Boost control mapping-The ability to control boost with the precision and accuracy of some $700+ JDM boost controllers. Saves the end user time and money, as well as simplifies the tuning process and MAP selection.
9) Spare Solenoid drivers- Allows you to control spare solenoids to activate water injection,N2O or Meth injection.
10)Free BASE MAPS- available at Turboxs.com FREE AS ALWAYS
11) FREE Software updates-available at Turboxs.com FREE AS ALWAYS
12)2 step launch control and no lift to shift- Features perfected on previous versions of the UTEC for over 7 years already and soon to be added to the 350Z UTEC, once again, for FREE Software updates..
13) Valet mode-Enables the end user to set the car in a non aggressive valet mode for those times when you dont want someone ripping up your car, like a Valet parker..
There, now I just gave you a bakers dozen of features that make me confident in the UTEC, when matched up against some units costing 3x's as much.
Now this being explained to the best of my abilities, with the exception of getting down to circuitry and processor speed of the units, as I am no computer guru. Im simply speaking from a Tuners perspective.
At no time am I saying the UTEC is SUPERIOR to the FCON, but I am simply saying it is a safe and affordable and proven form of engine management for the 350Z platform. And is superior to anything in its price range, and has some features you would see in units costing 3x's as much.
Peoples biggest gripe is the interface, which is a lame excuse for lazy and spoon fed tuners.I find the interface VERY capable and VERY easy to navigate.No frills..
However future software and interface methods will drastically improve the UTEC resolution, and capabilities as well as features...
Now, all I am trying to explain to you, without you thinking I am criticizing you for your choice and purchase, is that the Flock need not always follow the Shepard.
Just cause Sharif gives the FCON his seal of approval, does not mean every single person needs to go out and buy an FCON at this point..
The UTEC is not necessarily superior to the FCON, but simply MORE SENSIBLE, IMHO.
But I am sure you wil respond with some more nonsense as this answer probably is not what you intended from me..
Last edited by Julian@MRC; 01-16-2007 at 07:43 PM.
01-16-2007 | 08:34 PM
#219
5)accurate Knock retard- Utilizes factory knock sensors to accurately detect and prevent engine knocking by retarding timing. Also applies a GLOBAL MAP retard when knocking is detected, by pulling timing over the entire MAP for that drive cycle.
Factory knock sensors are the best to use because they are tuned for that engines harmonics. Look it up if you dont belive it. Using another engines knock sensor or a universal one will never beat factory knock detection.
Factory knock sensors are the best to use because they are tuned for that engines harmonics. Look it up if you dont belive it. Using another engines knock sensor or a universal one will never beat factory knock detection.