Engine is Toast !!!! Feel my Pain!!
06-06-2007, 06:43 AM
#101
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Originally Posted by NA&CH
Sorry for the mishap Larry(Advan brotha)...
Hey if anyone needs cabinets let me know.
I can hook it up... Not to get offtopic... 
Hey if anyone needs cabinets let me know.
I can hook it up... Not to get offtopic... 
06-06-2007, 06:44 AM
#102
I feel torn, I like Jeremy for the reasons Craig stated, he is a drag racer at heart, so am I. He without a doubt has fast cars and he uses his power well, look at his NA, N20 and TT 1/4 times, I will also never forget that Jeremy really hooked me up on my Carbonetics triple plate clutch-he is a good guy. But on the other hand I feel like posting another tuner's "conservative" tune (there is NOTHING wrong with that) online and trying to blame that for the smoking is wrong. I like both guys, they each have a niche in the Z community.
With that being said I have a Q for JET-my memory could be wrong, but didnt your car start smoking AFTER it had left Sharif's for the final time? I believe it did-or continued to, I also believe JET had removed the turbo and sent it back to TN, then he received it and reinstalled it, had that unfortunate accident and ended up with Jeremy. Follow me here, if Im right, wouldnt that mean Larry was the one who reinstalled/re-routed the return lines last? If so that would mean it wasnt Forged who had run that line inadequately. Regardless of Jet's answer, I think if I Was in his position I would have called Sharif and worked with both Jeremy and Sharif to resolve my issue, instead its now a "they did this" "they did that" thread
With that being said I have a Q for JET-my memory could be wrong, but didnt your car start smoking AFTER it had left Sharif's for the final time? I believe it did-or continued to, I also believe JET had removed the turbo and sent it back to TN, then he received it and reinstalled it, had that unfortunate accident and ended up with Jeremy. Follow me here, if Im right, wouldnt that mean Larry was the one who reinstalled/re-routed the return lines last? If so that would mean it wasnt Forged who had run that line inadequately. Regardless of Jet's answer, I think if I Was in his position I would have called Sharif and worked with both Jeremy and Sharif to resolve my issue, instead its now a "they did this" "they did that" thread
06-06-2007, 06:44 AM
#103
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Originally Posted by JETPILOT
The issue with the the oil return line was this.... The line was routed so it was touching the up-pipe. It burned through the line, but no oil leaked from the oil drain line. The outside of the oil drain line shows no sign of burnt, or soaked in oil. There is also no carbon/oil residue on the up-pipe. That's why I didn't mention it. Because it wasn't a factor. The oil return line isn't pressurized and oil was not being forced out of the hole. I have the line and will take a picture of it.
JET
JET
Proper lubricity within the motor is VERY critical.
06-06-2007, 06:51 AM
#105
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Originally Posted by Audible Mayhem
you sharif well are just plain overrated. who are you, you are some guy who got on some message boards a couple years ago with NO history or background of cars. you built up a loyal following of people in need of parts. you honestly had the lamest tune that i have ever seen on a car on jets car. come on man, when will everyone see through the BS. you are a nestle quick marketing person. thats it...
you come back to me when you build something that actually runs for once, not set up stupid safe...
here just for fun, we will let all the real tuners make fun of your timing maps that were on jets car. soooo lame man, i cant believe anyone pays for this... people WILL see the light
these images are jets old TN tune on a BUILT motor, parameters set up from 1 to 15 psi. if we want to talk crap and say who has a lot to learn, well this timing map tells the truth for sure...
now wonder you couldnt make any power over 5500, you left the timing the same values.
also, why we are trash talking, i heard through the grapevine sharif that you blew your motor, is that the reason you have a different one in there and only running 8 psi?? at least i make sure i dont hide stuff when i do it...
you come back to me when you build something that actually runs for once, not set up stupid safe...
here just for fun, we will let all the real tuners make fun of your timing maps that were on jets car. soooo lame man, i cant believe anyone pays for this... people WILL see the light
these images are jets old TN tune on a BUILT motor, parameters set up from 1 to 15 psi. if we want to talk crap and say who has a lot to learn, well this timing map tells the truth for sure...
now wonder you couldnt make any power over 5500, you left the timing the same values.
also, why we are trash talking, i heard through the grapevine sharif that you blew your motor, is that the reason you have a different one in there and only running 8 psi?? at least i make sure i dont hide stuff when i do it...
Im not taking sides here..However I just wanted to point out the fact that Sharif's timing maps are actually on par with a Turbonetics on a built motor running 14 psi of "HOT AIR" boost... Trust me, tuning a TN kit on a built motor is a big waste of time IMHO.The kit is designed for 7-8 psi, and thats all its good for in my experience. (Sorry Miaplaya
) The design of the piping and routing of lines make it unfavorable for high boost levels without running inot raised intake air temps.For example, my average Air intake temp on a Greddy TT kit on the dyno is about 31-35 dgrees celcius. COmparing to any TN kit stock or built, we see an average of 41-46 degrees celcius. This is a HUGE difference.
Once again, I honestly am not taking Sharif's side on this, just pointing out some obvious , legititmate facts.
06-06-2007, 06:56 AM
#108
Originally Posted by Sharif@Forged
Jet, I am very sorry to hear about this, but you bring up some points that need clarification.
First, when PF did the turbo install and noticed only 1 qt of engine oil drained, at that point..the engine was done. So after this, why was the turbo kit installed and the engine run again? Maybe I missed something in your timeline, but clearly, oil was burning off during that 3000 mile period...or whenever your last oil change occured.
Second, in regards to the tune: I tuned the TN kits way back when the TN kits were first introduced. First, we tuned them with the eManage, and then the UTEC's once they were launched. I have tuned at LEAST a couple dozen of them over the past two years, and about 7 on built engines that I can recall off hand. The timing profiles I run are definatly for a purpose. On stock engines, and stock boost, we can actually run MORE timing, becuase we arent bumping into the extreme backpressure issues that you see at 5500rpm on your dyno chart. We have tuned to 16psi with race fuel on Shervin's car, with the T66 upgrade, and the same curve exists, even with loads more timing involved. Look at every high boost TN dyno chart posted, and you will see the same drop-off in power, and the higher trq vs. hp situation.
The fact is, with the extreme backpressure these kits produce at high boost, you CANNOT safely run what would be considered "normal" timing. We run the maximum amount of timing possible, WITHOUT knock. Anymore timing on your engine, and knock counts were logged. Once Jeremy tunes a few high boost built TN kits, he will understand where I am coming from.
This kit, as I mentioned time and time again, is designed for mild boost, and the curve gets UGLY with high boost. Not by any function of tuning, but rather, due to backpressure. I posted your dyno chart a while back, and also sent it to TN, it help the address this issue for the high boost guys....so we aren't talking about anything new and revolutionary.
But the fact is, if an engine only had 1 qt of oil when it was drained...it had to go somewhere.
First, when PF did the turbo install and noticed only 1 qt of engine oil drained, at that point..the engine was done. So after this, why was the turbo kit installed and the engine run again? Maybe I missed something in your timeline, but clearly, oil was burning off during that 3000 mile period...or whenever your last oil change occured.
Second, in regards to the tune: I tuned the TN kits way back when the TN kits were first introduced. First, we tuned them with the eManage, and then the UTEC's once they were launched. I have tuned at LEAST a couple dozen of them over the past two years, and about 7 on built engines that I can recall off hand. The timing profiles I run are definatly for a purpose. On stock engines, and stock boost, we can actually run MORE timing, becuase we arent bumping into the extreme backpressure issues that you see at 5500rpm on your dyno chart. We have tuned to 16psi with race fuel on Shervin's car, with the T66 upgrade, and the same curve exists, even with loads more timing involved. Look at every high boost TN dyno chart posted, and you will see the same drop-off in power, and the higher trq vs. hp situation.
The fact is, with the extreme backpressure these kits produce at high boost, you CANNOT safely run what would be considered "normal" timing. We run the maximum amount of timing possible, WITHOUT knock. Anymore timing on your engine, and knock counts were logged. Once Jeremy tunes a few high boost built TN kits, he will understand where I am coming from.
This kit, as I mentioned time and time again, is designed for mild boost, and the curve gets UGLY with high boost. Not by any function of tuning, but rather, due to backpressure. I posted your dyno chart a while back, and also sent it to TN, it help the address this issue for the high boost guys....so we aren't talking about anything new and revolutionary.
But the fact is, if an engine only had 1 qt of oil when it was drained...it had to go somewhere.
Where does this back pressure come from? The exhaust or some part of the piping leading to the downpipe or what? Very interested on your thoughts and sorry if the answer was posted earlier but I can't read through 5 pages of info when I just got into work.
06-06-2007, 06:57 AM
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Originally Posted by MRC Motorsports
If the turbo drain line is not routed properly for optimal drainage back to the motor, oil pressure will build up within the turbo.Oil needs to go somewhere, and follows the path of least resistance.At this point, the oil may be "FORCED" out of the oil seals within the turbo. This may have played more of an issue than you think in the big picture.
Proper lubricity within the motor is VERY critical.
Proper lubricity within the motor is VERY critical.
HEY julian, did you get my pm? Let me know if you got the money.
Sorry for the ot post
06-06-2007, 06:57 AM
#110
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Originally Posted by taurran
Explain why it would be knocking at same boost levels? It wasn't spiking as Jetpilot had a custom external wastegate setup.
Besides, this isn't so much about the tune or the turbonetics setup as much as it is about a blown motor...
Besides, this isn't so much about the tune or the turbonetics setup as much as it is about a blown motor...
06-06-2007, 06:58 AM
#112
Originally Posted by Blu_Blur
Sharif,
Where does this back pressure come from? The exhaust or some part of the piping leading to the downpipe or what? Very interested on your thoughts and sorry if the answer was posted earlier but I can't read through 5 pages of info when I just got into work.
Where does this back pressure come from? The exhaust or some part of the piping leading to the downpipe or what? Very interested on your thoughts and sorry if the answer was posted earlier but I can't read through 5 pages of info when I just got into work.
06-06-2007, 07:00 AM
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Originally Posted by DomZ
I'm in work training right now and this is 12x more interesting, moreso for the FI knowledge than the character attacks and trashing of other people's body of work.
+1
I am def. a newb when it comes to the language of FI, which I hope to one day change.
06-06-2007, 07:02 AM
#114
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Wow...
I can say I know ALL of the parties involved here (shops) and am really saddened to see this as the end result. All of us have made mistakes, or been blamed for making mistakes (in situations where something went wrong and someone needed to point the finger), and all of us have fixed things that probably had nothing to do with our error in the first place, but out of principle.
If I can offer some advice for the future issue out there (these high hp forced induction setups will have issues at some point- its the name of the game)...the CUSTOMER needs to contact the shop first- not start a public thread looking for someone to burn.
I hope all of the issue s get resolved quickly and correctly, but I'd like to make a few comments to what I have read on this thread.
First off:
Every renowned builder/tuner here has made a mistake, we are all human. As I mentioned before, we have all also been BLAMED for making amistake- that due to the nature of the facts- had NOTHING to do with us- but we fixed it anyway (or compensated the customer in some way).
The tune that was openly shared on this thread looked very conservative. That was not the cause of any of these issues.
I have to back up a few comments aimed at Sharif, because he is my friend (I have known him since the beginning of this Z revolution) and he has always been an awesome, reputable person (I know the other parties involved too, and really wish everyone could get along here).
The attack claimed that Sharif worked for Nestle prior to cars is an attempt to discredit him, it doesn't work. I know of many people who have been in the auto industry for years and years but have the IQ of a child...doing something for a long time doesnt necessarily make one an expert...as I have always said (regarding my Chirorpactic profession)- perfect practice makes perfect- and as long as someone has the sense, reason, and understanding of the machanics of the situation AND surrounds themselves with other experts to ASK when in need of an answer they cannot, this is what makes them successful in what they do...Sharif has learned tons, much quicker than many others out there, and this creates a lot of jealousy- really a self-destructive behavior.
I have also been ridiculed (amongst friends of mine) that "what do i know about building motor, I am a Chiropractor". I can tell you that there is a lot to know in how to build a proper engine, and I can assure you that I have witnessed many of the other "experts" in the industry cutting corners and making excuses to safe steps of money in the process... I, myself have learned the dynamics of building the VQ35 very quickly, but we were some of the first in the country to do so, years ago...I have surrounded myself by experts in the industry and have compiled several different sources of info to sort through the opinions and build according to what will yield the best quality and what makes the most logical sense.
Since there are so many variables involved with building an engine, tuning and engine, and then successfully keeing this monster alive, we will all, unfortunately continue to see these types of threads.
Hopefully we can all work together to remedy the issue, rather than pointing fingers and talking trash.
Again, JET, hope your issues are resolved QUICKLY and without further issues. I have been through this myself, on my personal car, and know how frustrating this can be.
-TODD
I can say I know ALL of the parties involved here (shops) and am really saddened to see this as the end result. All of us have made mistakes, or been blamed for making mistakes (in situations where something went wrong and someone needed to point the finger), and all of us have fixed things that probably had nothing to do with our error in the first place, but out of principle.
If I can offer some advice for the future issue out there (these high hp forced induction setups will have issues at some point- its the name of the game)...the CUSTOMER needs to contact the shop first- not start a public thread looking for someone to burn.
I hope all of the issue s get resolved quickly and correctly, but I'd like to make a few comments to what I have read on this thread.
First off:
Every renowned builder/tuner here has made a mistake, we are all human. As I mentioned before, we have all also been BLAMED for making amistake- that due to the nature of the facts- had NOTHING to do with us- but we fixed it anyway (or compensated the customer in some way).
The tune that was openly shared on this thread looked very conservative. That was not the cause of any of these issues.
I have to back up a few comments aimed at Sharif, because he is my friend (I have known him since the beginning of this Z revolution) and he has always been an awesome, reputable person (I know the other parties involved too, and really wish everyone could get along here).
The attack claimed that Sharif worked for Nestle prior to cars is an attempt to discredit him, it doesn't work. I know of many people who have been in the auto industry for years and years but have the IQ of a child...doing something for a long time doesnt necessarily make one an expert...as I have always said (regarding my Chirorpactic profession)- perfect practice makes perfect- and as long as someone has the sense, reason, and understanding of the machanics of the situation AND surrounds themselves with other experts to ASK when in need of an answer they cannot, this is what makes them successful in what they do...Sharif has learned tons, much quicker than many others out there, and this creates a lot of jealousy- really a self-destructive behavior.
I have also been ridiculed (amongst friends of mine) that "what do i know about building motor, I am a Chiropractor". I can tell you that there is a lot to know in how to build a proper engine, and I can assure you that I have witnessed many of the other "experts" in the industry cutting corners and making excuses to safe steps of money in the process... I, myself have learned the dynamics of building the VQ35 very quickly, but we were some of the first in the country to do so, years ago...I have surrounded myself by experts in the industry and have compiled several different sources of info to sort through the opinions and build according to what will yield the best quality and what makes the most logical sense.
Since there are so many variables involved with building an engine, tuning and engine, and then successfully keeing this monster alive, we will all, unfortunately continue to see these types of threads.
Hopefully we can all work together to remedy the issue, rather than pointing fingers and talking trash.
Again, JET, hope your issues are resolved QUICKLY and without further issues. I have been through this myself, on my personal car, and know how frustrating this can be.
-TODD
Last edited by 350zDCalb; 06-06-2007 at 07:09 AM.
06-06-2007, 07:02 AM
#115
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Originally Posted by MRC Motorsports
Please clarify what your reffering to?
The only thing I can think of is he was suggesting that the backressure generated heat which generated knock. Have you found this to be the case on your cars?
06-06-2007, 07:03 AM
#116
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I have breifly read into Jet's problems with his TN oil issue, and never posted due to his car being at other shops. IMPO I think Jet may have had an issue in the Valve train, such as some blown valve seals causing oil to burn. Or possible believe it or not a bag PCV valve on his valve covers. We had one car where the oil catch would get an abnormal amout of oil in it (we thought it was oil consumption) and seeing how we used clear platci lines, we could see a steady stream of oil comming from the one line coming from the valve cover. We swapped out the valve cover and PCV valve and the problem went away and the car never smoked or consumed oil again. Something as simple as a bad PCV valve, which Im willing to bet no one ever checked, could have led to excessive "oil consuption". But hey, what do we know
06-06-2007, 07:04 AM
#117
Originally Posted by taurran
Explain why it would be knocking at same boost levels? It wasn't spiking as Jetpilot had a custom external wastegate setup.
Besides, this isn't so much about the tune or the turbonetics setup as much as it is about a blown motor...
Besides, this isn't so much about the tune or the turbonetics setup as much as it is about a blown motor...
Jermey, I will let your discription at what happened at ZDAYZ pass, but we all know that isnt what happened....not even close.
06-06-2007, 07:09 AM
#119
Originally Posted by Blu_Blur
Sharif,
Where does this back pressure come from? The exhaust or some part of the piping leading to the downpipe or what? Very interested on your thoughts and sorry if the answer was posted earlier but I can't read through 5 pages of info when I just got into work.
Where does this back pressure come from? The exhaust or some part of the piping leading to the downpipe or what? Very interested on your thoughts and sorry if the answer was posted earlier but I can't read through 5 pages of info when I just got into work.
1) small 2.5 inch downpipe on a 6 cylinder car with 3.5L of exhaust gas
2) Too small of an AR on the turbine housing
3) Too small crossover pipes.
Again, I am not dissing the TN kit. It does what it does...very well at the boost level it was engineered for. I wish I had our dyno chart from the low boost tune...but the dyno chart is on our old dyno...and no longer here. The power and trq curve looked much better.
06-06-2007, 07:11 AM
#120
Originally Posted by MRC Motorsports
Jeremy,
Im not taking sides here..However I just wanted to point out the fact that Sharif's timing maps are actually on par with a Turbonetics on a built motor running 14 psi of "HOT AIR" boost... Trust me, tuning a TN kit on a built motor is a big waste of time IMHO.The kit is designed for 7-8 psi, and thats all its good for in my experience. (Sorry Miaplaya ) The design of the piping and routing of lines make it unfavorable for high boost levels without running inot raised intake air temps.
For example, my average Air intake temp on a Greddy TT kit on the dyno is about 31-35 dgrees celcius. COmparing to any TN kit stock or built, we see an average of 41-46 degrees celcius. This is a HUGE difference.
Once again, I honestly am not taking Sharif's side on this, just pointing out some obvious , legititmate facts.
Im not taking sides here..However I just wanted to point out the fact that Sharif's timing maps are actually on par with a Turbonetics on a built motor running 14 psi of "HOT AIR" boost... Trust me, tuning a TN kit on a built motor is a big waste of time IMHO.The kit is designed for 7-8 psi, and thats all its good for in my experience. (Sorry Miaplaya
) The design of the piping and routing of lines make it unfavorable for high boost levels without running inot raised intake air temps.For example, my average Air intake temp on a Greddy TT kit on the dyno is about 31-35 dgrees celcius. COmparing to any TN kit stock or built, we see an average of 41-46 degrees celcius. This is a HUGE difference.
Once again, I honestly am not taking Sharif's side on this, just pointing out some obvious , legititmate facts.
Thanks J.