New EMS for 350Z
Hope this doesn't end up like the Hydra EMS for the 350Z
Originally Posted by danielwebb
would there be any real benefit to upgrading from a utec for a car that puts out 350-400whp
not needed
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Joined: Sep 2005
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From: NJ
SoundPerformance, this new EMS sounds very promising, please let us know when ready to play.
Rocks, which table is 12x12? Osiris currently have 16x16 majority of tables. Base Fuel (AFR target) is currently 8x8 table but Fuel Compensation table is 16x16.
I am not sure if Osiris is ready for FI? Other than few UpRev tuned FI cars (not much info on this site about them) there was only one (Vortech) reported here (zzerotwosixty) with Osiris and that one blew week later, however, for other reasons as reported by owner.
Alberto, what would be sufficient resolution for open/closed loop?
Thanks
Rocks, which table is 12x12? Osiris currently have 16x16 majority of tables. Base Fuel (AFR target) is currently 8x8 table but Fuel Compensation table is 16x16.
I am not sure if Osiris is ready for FI? Other than few UpRev tuned FI cars (not much info on this site about them) there was only one (Vortech) reported here (zzerotwosixty) with Osiris and that one blew week later, however, for other reasons as reported by owner.
Alberto, what would be sufficient resolution for open/closed loop?
Thanks
Originally Posted by danielwebb
would there be any real benefit to upgrading from a utec for a car that puts out 350-400whp
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 143
Likes: 0
From: Fairfax, VA
Sharif I think its time for you to learn a new EMS because you are an FCON god so we need you to be a PROEFI EMS god as well. Also the traction control system sounds promising. I wonder how it will work inconjunction with the TCS/VDC. Also that it can control the intake and exhaust cam system is awesome.
Originally Posted by GurgenPB
If you don't mind, let me add to that list, as expensive as it is.....
1. Osiris ($700, NA w/ multiple tunes via e-mail, comes w/ CIPHER diagnostics)
2. UTEC ($900, user tuneable, good for FI to 500 hp w/ current firmware)
3. Haltech ($2300, user tuneable, good for high hp+custom controls)
4. FCON Vpro ($3000+, locked, good for high hp+custom controls)
5. MoTeC M600 ($4500 for parts, labor extra, user tunable, ultimate in flexibility/ reliability/control)
1. Osiris ($700, NA w/ multiple tunes via e-mail, comes w/ CIPHER diagnostics)
2. UTEC ($900, user tuneable, good for FI to 500 hp w/ current firmware)
3. Haltech ($2300, user tuneable, good for high hp+custom controls)
4. FCON Vpro ($3000+, locked, good for high hp+custom controls)
5. MoTeC M600 ($4500 for parts, labor extra, user tunable, ultimate in flexibility/ reliability/control)
Well if we are going to compare apples to apples, the FCon is not $3,000 for parts only (since all the other prices for other units listed are only parts)
If you want to talk about true cost of PARTS for a FCon setup here you go:
Unit: $1,395
Harness: $495
MAP Sensor: $225.00
Total of: $2,115.00
So the dis-advantage (if you consider it that, would not matter to someone not tunning their own car) the FCon would have vs. a Haltech is end-user tunability.
Although the Haltech will have cam phasing control which the FCon cannot
Just being objective
-George
GT Motorsports
Originally Posted by George@GTM
So the dis-advantage (if you consider it that, would not matter to someone not tunning their own car) the FCon would have vs. a Haltech is end-user tunability.
-George
GT Motorsports
To me that would be a big disadvantage. There are excellent local tuners that also know what they're doing.
...It sounds really neat, but, I have to agree that there will most likely be bugs in the first release of this unit.
...Remember all the promises of the UTEC back in 2005 or so:
UTEC Release Thread
...I can't find it now, but didn't the UTEC advertise some type of throttle-position feature for drag racing?
...and it is only just recently that the UTEC can control boost.
...so yeah, I think it will be great in the future once the bugs get worked out, but I wouldn't make any immediate plans for one.
Just my
PZ
.
...Remember all the promises of the UTEC back in 2005 or so:
UTEC Release Thread
TurboXS has spent the last couple of months developing an EMS solution for the 350Z Market. Fresh to the Z market we release the Z UTEC. This unit will be available for the 350Z and G35.
The Z UTEC is a Plug and Play Parallel Engine Management System. Designed to work together with you factory ECU. The UTEC gives you the ability to let the factory ECU drive the car under normal cruise conditions then take over when you are ready for the power in a flawless manor. This gives you like stock drive-ability with the advantages of a powerful stand-alone system. The UTEC allows you to maintain OBDII compliancy as well. The UTEC is unnoticeable to the OBD Scan process most states are adopting these days. In basic form we allow control over Fuel and Ignition Timing. Each control gives you 250 rpm resolution from 500 rpm to revlimit with over 10 different load sites. The UTEC will ship with pre-programmed base maps to help get you up and driving right away. In addition to having a pre-programmed base maps the UTEC has provisions for 5 different map locations. The multi-map capability allows you to use our remote map selector to switch between the 5 maps or stock mode on the fly. Your tuning options are endless when you can have a race map and daily driving map at the tip of your fingers. The power is all yours!
The easiest way to visualize it would be to break down it’s components into separate systems.
Fuel Control- The UTEC takes control of your vehicles fuelling at a define-able TPS point that is programmable. Fuel is tuned by an MAF offset table, a simple but effective technique. The load reference we use is RPM vs. MAF Voltage. The UTEC can also take in our optional MAP sensor to tune RPM vs. MAP or you can just use the MAP reading in your datalogs. This allows the fuel map to be adjusted at each of the 250 rpm resolution with over 10 different load sites from zero to rev limit.
Ignition Timing- The UTEC gives you complete control of timing. This is not done on the basis of offsets or altering the crank signal as some engine management systems use. The load reference we use is RPM vs. MAF or MAP which is optional. This allows the fuel map to be adjusted at each of the 250 rpm resolution with over 10 different load sites from zero to rev limit. When you enter a value into the Ignition Map you are actually typing in Degrees Before Top Dead Center. The UTEC fires the coils based on these values. No more wondering if the stock ecu is going to advance or retard timing.
Knock Control- This feature allows you to help keep your motor in one piece. The UTEC contains default knock thresholds but can be adjusted at 1000 rpm increments up to 9000 rpm. It also contains a Knock Count threshold that allows you to define how many counts of knock before the UTEC will respond with a Knock Retard Step. The Knock Retard Step is the amount of ignition timing that will be pulled per knock count to a defined Knock Maximum Retard. Knock Maximum Retard relates to the maximum degrees of timing the UTEC will retard per knock event. When a knock count is registered the UTEC will hold the retard for a set number of crank cycles this is called Knock Retard Duration. The UTEC also has the ability to apply a global Knock Correction to the entire map once a knock event is evident. This will help ensure that you keep your high compression monster together. All of these features are the UTEC’s safety net. They should be used pro-active not as a reactive measure.
Datalogging- The UTEC Datalogging function helps you to keep an eye on your engines vitals. Using the logger gives you all the information you want to know about your vehicle. You can take multiple logs of your vehicle whether it’s simple driveability or all out racing. You can be sure the UTEC is keeping an eye out when you can’t. The main logger (Number1) contains rpm, map, maf voltage, tps, load site, afr, ignition timing, injector duty cycle, modified fuel (fuel control) and more. Logs can be output into text files or csv files for easy comparison. When the UTEC is used with a TXS Tuner model it can also supply you with w/b afr readings in your logs as well. Giving you the ultimate tuning package.
Remote Map Selector- The remote selector gives you the capability to switch between your UTEC maps. It also allows you to revert back to full stock ecu control on map 0 (when stock sized injectors are used). Maps 1 through 5 are your UTEC tunable map locations. Map 7 is your security mode, the car will not start. The car cannot be bump started or jumped when security mode is enabled
Software Upgrade- The UTEC will have periodic software updates to further innovate it’s tunability and flexibility. The most current version of software will be available on our website www.turboxs.com.
The Z UTEC will be ideal for both Forced Induction and Naturally Aspirated Mods. The UTEC has the ability to control things like Nitrous, Water Injection and More!
We will be shipping units out to selected testers in the next couple of days. We have been running them on our in house vehicles with great results. On a Z with test pipes and intake we are seeing 10-13whp gains and 9-12 ft. lbs. gains in the midrange.
The Z UTEC is a Plug and Play Parallel Engine Management System. Designed to work together with you factory ECU. The UTEC gives you the ability to let the factory ECU drive the car under normal cruise conditions then take over when you are ready for the power in a flawless manor. This gives you like stock drive-ability with the advantages of a powerful stand-alone system. The UTEC allows you to maintain OBDII compliancy as well. The UTEC is unnoticeable to the OBD Scan process most states are adopting these days. In basic form we allow control over Fuel and Ignition Timing. Each control gives you 250 rpm resolution from 500 rpm to revlimit with over 10 different load sites. The UTEC will ship with pre-programmed base maps to help get you up and driving right away. In addition to having a pre-programmed base maps the UTEC has provisions for 5 different map locations. The multi-map capability allows you to use our remote map selector to switch between the 5 maps or stock mode on the fly. Your tuning options are endless when you can have a race map and daily driving map at the tip of your fingers. The power is all yours!
The easiest way to visualize it would be to break down it’s components into separate systems.
Fuel Control- The UTEC takes control of your vehicles fuelling at a define-able TPS point that is programmable. Fuel is tuned by an MAF offset table, a simple but effective technique. The load reference we use is RPM vs. MAF Voltage. The UTEC can also take in our optional MAP sensor to tune RPM vs. MAP or you can just use the MAP reading in your datalogs. This allows the fuel map to be adjusted at each of the 250 rpm resolution with over 10 different load sites from zero to rev limit.
Ignition Timing- The UTEC gives you complete control of timing. This is not done on the basis of offsets or altering the crank signal as some engine management systems use. The load reference we use is RPM vs. MAF or MAP which is optional. This allows the fuel map to be adjusted at each of the 250 rpm resolution with over 10 different load sites from zero to rev limit. When you enter a value into the Ignition Map you are actually typing in Degrees Before Top Dead Center. The UTEC fires the coils based on these values. No more wondering if the stock ecu is going to advance or retard timing.
Knock Control- This feature allows you to help keep your motor in one piece. The UTEC contains default knock thresholds but can be adjusted at 1000 rpm increments up to 9000 rpm. It also contains a Knock Count threshold that allows you to define how many counts of knock before the UTEC will respond with a Knock Retard Step. The Knock Retard Step is the amount of ignition timing that will be pulled per knock count to a defined Knock Maximum Retard. Knock Maximum Retard relates to the maximum degrees of timing the UTEC will retard per knock event. When a knock count is registered the UTEC will hold the retard for a set number of crank cycles this is called Knock Retard Duration. The UTEC also has the ability to apply a global Knock Correction to the entire map once a knock event is evident. This will help ensure that you keep your high compression monster together. All of these features are the UTEC’s safety net. They should be used pro-active not as a reactive measure.
Datalogging- The UTEC Datalogging function helps you to keep an eye on your engines vitals. Using the logger gives you all the information you want to know about your vehicle. You can take multiple logs of your vehicle whether it’s simple driveability or all out racing. You can be sure the UTEC is keeping an eye out when you can’t. The main logger (Number1) contains rpm, map, maf voltage, tps, load site, afr, ignition timing, injector duty cycle, modified fuel (fuel control) and more. Logs can be output into text files or csv files for easy comparison. When the UTEC is used with a TXS Tuner model it can also supply you with w/b afr readings in your logs as well. Giving you the ultimate tuning package.
Remote Map Selector- The remote selector gives you the capability to switch between your UTEC maps. It also allows you to revert back to full stock ecu control on map 0 (when stock sized injectors are used). Maps 1 through 5 are your UTEC tunable map locations. Map 7 is your security mode, the car will not start. The car cannot be bump started or jumped when security mode is enabled
Software Upgrade- The UTEC will have periodic software updates to further innovate it’s tunability and flexibility. The most current version of software will be available on our website www.turboxs.com.
The Z UTEC will be ideal for both Forced Induction and Naturally Aspirated Mods. The UTEC has the ability to control things like Nitrous, Water Injection and More!
We will be shipping units out to selected testers in the next couple of days. We have been running them on our in house vehicles with great results. On a Z with test pipes and intake we are seeing 10-13whp gains and 9-12 ft. lbs. gains in the midrange.
...and it is only just recently that the UTEC can control boost.
...so yeah, I think it will be great in the future once the bugs get worked out, but I wouldn't make any immediate plans for one.
Just my
PZ
.
Originally Posted by accordfreak
It looks like it costs $884 dollars for you to install and tune from your package deal?
To me that would be a big disadvantage. There are excellent local tuners that also know what they're doing.
To me that would be a big disadvantage. There are excellent local tuners that also know what they're doing.
Here is a break down for you:
$2,314.00 for parts
$500.00 for Dyno tuning with HKS KNOCK AMP, and Dynograph with A/F reading.
$185.00 for Professional Installation
If you don't think those price are reasonable then I don't know what to say.
I hope your local tuners are using some type of method to listen for knock rather that waiting until it so bad that you can hear it over engine noise, fans, dyno, etc.
Hope this helps,
-George
GT Motorsports
That's a great deal George - no question - and thanks for adding that into the mix. Looks very competitive with your package deal. I think many would want to know the knock amp cost too even though it's not a requirement to run all the time... Every other EMS has knock detection built in, so it's only fair 
.
EDIT: I'll grant you that with the knock amp, it may arguably be the best knock detection on the market -certainly for tuning with headphones, which is key. The other piece missing from the FCON is the boost controller, also which is built in to most EMS systems designed for FI. Here again, not saying that the built in functionality compares to an HKS EBC, but the costs add up...
If you decide to add in the knock amp and boost controller, then I think the $3k+ estimate, is a pretty fair figure.
.EDIT: I'll grant you that with the knock amp, it may arguably be the best knock detection on the market -certainly for tuning with headphones, which is key. The other piece missing from the FCON is the boost controller, also which is built in to most EMS systems designed for FI. Here again, not saying that the built in functionality compares to an HKS EBC, but the costs add up...
If you decide to add in the knock amp and boost controller, then I think the $3k+ estimate, is a pretty fair figure.
Last edited by rcdash; Sep 24, 2007 at 04:03 AM.
Originally Posted by rcdash
That's a great deal George - no question - and thanks for adding that into the mix. Looks very competitive with your package deal. I think many would want to know the knock amp cost too even though it's not a requirement to run all the time... Every other EMS has knock detection built in, so it's only fair .
EDIT: I'll grant you that with the knock amp, it may arguably be the best knock detection on the market -certainly for tuning with headphones, which is key. The other piece missing from the FCON is the boost controller, also which is built in to most EMS systems designed for FI. Here again, not saying that the built in functionality compares to an HKS EBC, but the costs add up...
If you decide to add in the knock amp and boost controller, then I think the $3k+ estimate, is a pretty fair figure.
.EDIT: I'll grant you that with the knock amp, it may arguably be the best knock detection on the market -certainly for tuning with headphones, which is key. The other piece missing from the FCON is the boost controller, also which is built in to most EMS systems designed for FI. Here again, not saying that the built in functionality compares to an HKS EBC, but the costs add up...
If you decide to add in the knock amp and boost controller, then I think the $3k+ estimate, is a pretty fair figure.
back on topic :
SP.09-17-2007
New feature of the day!!
Boost Control Strategies
Will be able to utilize dual solenoids to control pressure to both the top and bottom ports on any wastegate. This will give you VERY accurate control!!
Will be able to control boost by speed.
Will be able to control boost by time. Therefore if you spin the tires, and the vehicle speed sensor puts the boost map into a zone for higher boost.... the computer will know that it is wrong and hold the boost down until a certain amount of time.
Will control boost based on traction control. Traction control will be based on wheel speed differential!!
This computer will also know what gear you are in by simply entering gear ratios from the service manual, rear end ratio and tire size!!
------------------------------------------------
The biggest thing with this system is the safety it affords the customer. Every safe guard I could think of is in the Pro EFI. Customers can spend more time enjoying their cars on the street, and less time worrying about what happens when one of the 3 pumps in the tank quit working, and they don't know it. The Pro EFI will tell you that you have a problem before you have a real problem, and need a tow truck!
------------------------------------------------
This computer is peak hold for all inj outputs so it will run 1600s no problem!!
------------------------------------------------
This computer learning ability is just not for fuel and timing!! It will learn all necessary idle functions. The processor speed on these computers is light years ahead of anything that you are used to.
One of the problems with current stand alones is for example.... if you set up a table that is for idle motor percentage vs. idle speed.... OK so at 65% idle motor you may get 1500 rpm. OK great..... but the problem is that is at full warm temps. When the car is cold.... you may only see 1000 RPM. This new computer will learn all of this just like a factory ECU.... BECAUSE IT IS A FACTORY ECU!!!
Remember... most standalones today are as advanced as factory ECUs were in the 1980s. Both strategy-wise and speed.
This new computer will advance the standalone market by 25 years in technology!!
SP.09-17-2007
New feature of the day!!
Boost Control Strategies
Will be able to utilize dual solenoids to control pressure to both the top and bottom ports on any wastegate. This will give you VERY accurate control!!
Will be able to control boost by speed.
Will be able to control boost by time. Therefore if you spin the tires, and the vehicle speed sensor puts the boost map into a zone for higher boost.... the computer will know that it is wrong and hold the boost down until a certain amount of time.
Will control boost based on traction control. Traction control will be based on wheel speed differential!!
This computer will also know what gear you are in by simply entering gear ratios from the service manual, rear end ratio and tire size!!
------------------------------------------------
The biggest thing with this system is the safety it affords the customer. Every safe guard I could think of is in the Pro EFI. Customers can spend more time enjoying their cars on the street, and less time worrying about what happens when one of the 3 pumps in the tank quit working, and they don't know it. The Pro EFI will tell you that you have a problem before you have a real problem, and need a tow truck!
------------------------------------------------
This computer is peak hold for all inj outputs so it will run 1600s no problem!!
------------------------------------------------
This computer learning ability is just not for fuel and timing!! It will learn all necessary idle functions. The processor speed on these computers is light years ahead of anything that you are used to.
One of the problems with current stand alones is for example.... if you set up a table that is for idle motor percentage vs. idle speed.... OK so at 65% idle motor you may get 1500 rpm. OK great..... but the problem is that is at full warm temps. When the car is cold.... you may only see 1000 RPM. This new computer will learn all of this just like a factory ECU.... BECAUSE IT IS A FACTORY ECU!!!
Remember... most standalones today are as advanced as factory ECUs were in the 1980s. Both strategy-wise and speed.
This new computer will advance the standalone market by 25 years in technology!!
Last edited by IIQuickSilverII; Sep 24, 2007 at 05:59 AM.
SP 09-19-2007
New feature of the Day!!!
Lean condition safety features:
In the case of a lean condition under certain circumstances (IE load, time etc) the computer can be programmed to shut down nitrous, lower boost, initiate fuel cut, initiate a rev limiter for a programmed duration of time until safe conditions return. This can also then be programmed to throw a code and activate the check engine light.
-------------------------------------------------------
Any idea what the sample rate per second is on the extra inputs?
5 milliseconds
is the factory fuel injector resistor pack needed ? or are they now built into the box ?
The Pro EFI has peak n hold divers built in. So you elimante your resistor pack, and do NOT need a driver box.
-------------------------------------------------------
Update, update (09-20-2007, 04:15 PM)..... Less boost, slightly tighter gap : 1011 RWHP 30 psi .024" plug gap, stock ignitor!!!!
(NOte this is on the supra ...where myth says ~~+800whp is max of stock ignition)
-------------------------------------------------------
by Larry:
Jason's theories have been proven correct. He is a smart fella Almost as smart as me.... but nowhere near as good looking!!!
lol
ENJOY!!!
New feature of the Day!!!
Lean condition safety features:
In the case of a lean condition under certain circumstances (IE load, time etc) the computer can be programmed to shut down nitrous, lower boost, initiate fuel cut, initiate a rev limiter for a programmed duration of time until safe conditions return. This can also then be programmed to throw a code and activate the check engine light.
-------------------------------------------------------
Any idea what the sample rate per second is on the extra inputs?
5 milliseconds
is the factory fuel injector resistor pack needed ? or are they now built into the box ?
The Pro EFI has peak n hold divers built in. So you elimante your resistor pack, and do NOT need a driver box.
-------------------------------------------------------
Update, update (09-20-2007, 04:15 PM)..... Less boost, slightly tighter gap : 1011 RWHP 30 psi .024" plug gap, stock ignitor!!!!
(NOte this is on the supra ...where myth says ~~+800whp is max of stock ignition)
-------------------------------------------------------
by Larry:
Jason's theories have been proven correct. He is a smart fella Almost as smart as me.... but nowhere near as good looking!!!
lol
ENJOY!!!
Last edited by IIQuickSilverII; Sep 24, 2007 at 06:14 AM.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 143
Likes: 0
From: Fairfax, VA
I think the best thing an ems can give us is the ability to control the CVTC, VVEL and TCS/VDC. If there was away to utilize the TCS/VDC for the high hp guys to actually help with traction instead of being an interfrence that would be awesome.