Relentless Autosports - VRT: You be the judge
10-19-2007, 05:11 AM
#201
Originally Posted by STL Lightning
You have no first hand knowledge, so you continue (along with some other vendors) to beat a dead horse to either:
1. Hurt potential competition
2. Make yourself look better
Nothing you have posted has helped the customer, nor can it.
And just be clear, since I'm sure some may think it, I have no relationship with RA. The only 2 vendors that I'm a customer of are GRD and Forged. The vendor on vendor feeding frenzy is very poor taste in my opinion.
-Mark
1. Hurt potential competition
2. Make yourself look better
Nothing you have posted has helped the customer, nor can it.
And just be clear, since I'm sure some may think it, I have no relationship with RA. The only 2 vendors that I'm a customer of are GRD and Forged. The vendor on vendor feeding frenzy is very poor taste in my opinion.
-Mark
10-19-2007, 05:13 AM
#202
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i would not have made the same choices... but,if the builder discussed the build with the customer and he got what he paid for why is gtm,mrc and fp still on the attack?it seems more like destroy the competition than helpfull whistle blowing.at least fp is directly involved,the other two should be ashamed of their un-proffesional behaviour and i just dont understand why the administrators allow this wild west behaviour from vendors.ultimately my 350z is to blame for turning a blind eye to the dispicable attitude this forums vendors has become famous for.over and over vendors are warned with no consiquence,which creates an atmosphere where members choose to lurk instead of post for fear of vicious attack.if you wonder why the vq platform is developing so slowly you only need to look inside this forum and it is apparent why other shops and experts want no part of this nonsense.
10-19-2007, 05:18 AM
#203
Originally Posted by go-fast
i would not have made the same choices... but,if the builder discussed the build with the customer and he got what he paid for why is gtm,mrc and fp still on the attack?it seems more like destroy the competition than helpfull whistle blowing.at least fp is directly involved,the other two should be ashamed of their un-proffesional behaviour and i just dont understand why the administrators allow this wild west behaviour from vendors.ultimately my 350z is to blame for turning a blind eye to the dispicable attitude this forums vendors has become famous for.over and over vendors are warned with no consiquence,which creates an atmosphere where members choose to lurk instead of post for fear of vicious attack.if you wonder why the vq platform is developing so slowly you only need to look inside this forum and it is apparent why other shops and experts want no part of this nonsense.
10-19-2007, 05:18 AM
#204
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Originally Posted by rcdash
That's not true. MRC has clearly stated issues where he feels RA has crossed ethical boundaries. This may not help this customer, but it should be feedback to RA to improve business practices so that issues like this do not arise in the future. The more shops with solid business practices helping out the 350z community, the better. Future customers do benefit. The points about Luie's car are really up to Luie, but many of the other points are valid.
10-19-2007, 05:22 AM
#206
Originally Posted by go-fast
ultimately my 350z is to blame for turning a blind eye to the dispicable attitude this forums vendors has become famous for.over and over vendors are warned with no consiquence,which creates an atmosphere where members choose to lurk instead of post for fear of vicious attack.if you wonder why the vq platform is developing so slowly you only need to look inside this forum and it is apparent why other shops and experts want no part of this nonsense.
2. The VQ platform is doing great in terms of development! Most tuners/shops want no part of the 350Z/G because they're too much of a PITA to work on and the out of pocket cost are really high for the consumer...
10-19-2007, 05:27 AM
#207
Like has been asked a couple times before - where is RA doing their work. Are they really working out of a mini storage. Somebody has to have a pic of their shop???
The way I look at this entire situation is a follows:
The fact they smoothed things over with this customer means absolutley nothing. Customer posted and basically said they no nothing about the VQ other than it is expensive to build. A shop you placed your trust in originally, reasures you things will be OK with their special techniques does not excuse the fact that they built a motor, with the goal of high HP and boost, with OEM parts. Then to come on here after there were "discrepencies" found and claim, oh, all is good, we have "voodoo" in our motors is laughable.
Bottom line - RA put out a questionable at best build, was called out about it, and their defense is, it is all good?????
The way I look at this entire situation is a follows:
The fact they smoothed things over with this customer means absolutley nothing. Customer posted and basically said they no nothing about the VQ other than it is expensive to build. A shop you placed your trust in originally, reasures you things will be OK with their special techniques does not excuse the fact that they built a motor, with the goal of high HP and boost, with OEM parts. Then to come on here after there were "discrepencies" found and claim, oh, all is good, we have "voodoo" in our motors is laughable.
Bottom line - RA put out a questionable at best build, was called out about it, and their defense is, it is all good?????
10-19-2007, 05:52 AM
#208
I would like to ask Scott@Ra a few direct questions. If everyone else would refrain from posting until he has a chance to respond, I would appreciate it. I am to make this is on-topic as possible.
1) The build sheet we saw was clearly something you produced. It had your branded parts on it, and the fictitious parts I spoke of earlier, like Nismo main studs and Nismo head studs. So if the engine we installed was not referencing this build sheet, where is this motor with the fictitious parts? Clerical errors do not magically turn into fake parts on a build sheet.
2) I added up the cost of building this exact same engine in our shop. The price for anyone walking through the door would be $3600 without cams, and assuming you have cams in this engine, then the cost would be $4700. Let's make it an even $5000 to cover any misc items. This is my estimate for parts AND all labor, to produce this crate engine. Pete informed me that he paid much more than this, and the price he paid was his sponsorship special price. How can you explain this?
I have been doing this long enough, to know when something smells fishy.
1) The build sheet we saw was clearly something you produced. It had your branded parts on it, and the fictitious parts I spoke of earlier, like Nismo main studs and Nismo head studs. So if the engine we installed was not referencing this build sheet, where is this motor with the fictitious parts? Clerical errors do not magically turn into fake parts on a build sheet.
2) I added up the cost of building this exact same engine in our shop. The price for anyone walking through the door would be $3600 without cams, and assuming you have cams in this engine, then the cost would be $4700. Let's make it an even $5000 to cover any misc items. This is my estimate for parts AND all labor, to produce this crate engine. Pete informed me that he paid much more than this, and the price he paid was his sponsorship special price. How can you explain this?
I have been doing this long enough, to know when something smells fishy.
10-19-2007, 06:24 AM
#209
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Originally Posted by IIQuickSilverII
thats the part i cant get over it, i find it very hard to believe the engine can last over 550whp Dynojet, but id like to see us proven wrong....but it might not happen.
This test will prove nothing IMO. A couple of dyno pulls means nothing to me. Lets see how long it lasts.
10-19-2007, 06:27 AM
#210
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Originally Posted by Gman2004
That test will prove nothing IMO. A couple of dyno pulls means nothing to me. On my last build, which I was using ARP studs, headlift didn't start rearing it's ugly head until about 1.5 months of beating it to death.
well i am assuming like the rest of teir cars it will probably see the track so... let just wait and see....
i dont dissagree with you though....i remeber your built very well and thats why i have my serious doubts that the engine can make and hold the power... ie, not turning the boost down at the track...
10-19-2007, 06:32 AM
#211
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I am going with 14mm studs this time around. Call me over cautious, but if I could have been over cautious at the time of my last build, I wouldn't be rebuidling today.
BTW for all the haters of shops that overbuild, my shop actually told me to go with L19's and I said *** it. For $600 or so more throw on the big boys. I don't want to deal with this ever again.
BTW for all the haters of shops that overbuild, my shop actually told me to go with L19's and I said *** it. For $600 or so more throw on the big boys. I don't want to deal with this ever again.
10-19-2007, 06:33 AM
#212
Originally Posted by Gman2004
On my last build, which I was using ARP studs, headlift didn't start rearing it's ugly head until about 1.5 months of beating it to death. When it was tuned they did like 50 plus dyno pulls and no signs of headlift.
This test will prove nothing IMO. A couple of dyno pulls means nothing to me. Lets see how long it lasts.
This test will prove nothing IMO. A couple of dyno pulls means nothing to me. Lets see how long it lasts.
10-19-2007, 06:36 AM
#213
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Originally Posted by Gman2004
I am going with 14mm studs this time around. Call me over cautious, but if I could have been over cautious at the time of my last build, I wouldn't be rebuidling today.
BTW for all the haters of shops that overbuild, my shop actually told me to go with L19's and I said *** it. For $600 or so more throw on the big boys. I don't want to deal with this ever again.
BTW for all the haters of shops that overbuild, my shop actually told me to go with L19's and I said *** it. For $600 or so more throw on the big boys. I don't want to deal with this ever again.
hummm well you asked for the overbuild...which is different that "cautious overbuild"... or "i wanna sell more parts" overbuild.
no reason to trun this into a headstuds debate... we have seen over 1000whp proven on the L19s
10-19-2007, 06:40 AM
#214
Can I get some clarification of the situation? I'm a little confused with what actually happened and I just want to understand the details better.
The engine build was a fixed price bid and with no details or agreements to the specific components being used on the customer's end. Pete agreed to a price with the understanding that the engine would be capable of reaching a certain horsepower mark reliably for track use, not a price based on the build sheet. Noah came up with a build sheet that was sent to Pete for reference.
Question for Noah and Scott: Did you guys determine and agree to a build sheet first? Did Noah send the same build sheet to RA that was sent to Pete as instructions for the build, or was RA given carte blanche to build the motor to their specs to meet target goals for power as long as budget was below the agreed price?
I'm trying to figure out why parts were on Noah's sheet that didn't end up in the engine. We can assume clerical error for the Nismo parts that don't exist and S2 instead of S7 cams, but what about the ported and polished heads and the headgasket which were clearly called out on the build sheet?
Question for Scott: Related to my last question, where you presented the build sheet prior to accepting the job and made aware that Noah had documented the components in question? If you were not given a build sheet, do you have the actual build sheet for the motor based on the work that Mark did?
Now what I'm gathering is that Pete had told RA that Performance Factory would do the tuning after receiving the motor so Jeremy was in the loop with this, but the car went to Forged instead which brings us to where the thread started.
This does leave some questions on my mind though because I still see a disconnect between the build sheet and the motor in the pictures and how the final quote came around.
There's more than enough experience with the parties involved to know that you don't agree to a quote for an engine build without documenting the parts you're going to use and basing the quote on cost of parts and time for the labor involved with the build. This is clearly a failure on all parties involved.
What bothers and confuses me though is who came up with the price quote that all parties agreed upon? There seems to be enough difference in the parts and labor listed in Noah's build sheet vs the real build that there should've been a big enough discrepency between the prices of the two?
Sorry for posting Sharif, had started reviewing the thread and writing my response before you did.
The engine build was a fixed price bid and with no details or agreements to the specific components being used on the customer's end. Pete agreed to a price with the understanding that the engine would be capable of reaching a certain horsepower mark reliably for track use, not a price based on the build sheet. Noah came up with a build sheet that was sent to Pete for reference.
Question for Noah and Scott: Did you guys determine and agree to a build sheet first? Did Noah send the same build sheet to RA that was sent to Pete as instructions for the build, or was RA given carte blanche to build the motor to their specs to meet target goals for power as long as budget was below the agreed price?
I'm trying to figure out why parts were on Noah's sheet that didn't end up in the engine. We can assume clerical error for the Nismo parts that don't exist and S2 instead of S7 cams, but what about the ported and polished heads and the headgasket which were clearly called out on the build sheet?
Question for Scott: Related to my last question, where you presented the build sheet prior to accepting the job and made aware that Noah had documented the components in question? If you were not given a build sheet, do you have the actual build sheet for the motor based on the work that Mark did?
Now what I'm gathering is that Pete had told RA that Performance Factory would do the tuning after receiving the motor so Jeremy was in the loop with this, but the car went to Forged instead which brings us to where the thread started.
This does leave some questions on my mind though because I still see a disconnect between the build sheet and the motor in the pictures and how the final quote came around.
There's more than enough experience with the parties involved to know that you don't agree to a quote for an engine build without documenting the parts you're going to use and basing the quote on cost of parts and time for the labor involved with the build. This is clearly a failure on all parties involved.
What bothers and confuses me though is who came up with the price quote that all parties agreed upon? There seems to be enough difference in the parts and labor listed in Noah's build sheet vs the real build that there should've been a big enough discrepency between the prices of the two?
Originally Posted by Sharif@Forged
I would like to ask Scott@Ra a few direct questions. If everyone else would refrain from posting until he has a chance to respond, I would appreciate it. I am to make this is on-topic as possible.
Last edited by helldorado; 10-19-2007 at 06:44 AM.
10-19-2007, 06:45 AM
#215
Originally Posted by MRC Motorsports
surely you can not even be remotely serious..
Sharif puts together a car that made a LEGIT, and when I mean LEGIT, I mean LEGIT AND VERIFIED, over 700whp without issue.One of a few in the USA, and you mean to tell me RA gets the big 2 foot by 2 foot logo on the side of his car for "tweaking" the suspension and assisting in tire selection?? Remembr, the tires and suspension dont do much on a staionary car with no motor.
Sharif puts together a car that made a LEGIT, and when I mean LEGIT, I mean LEGIT AND VERIFIED, over 700whp without issue.One of a few in the USA, and you mean to tell me RA gets the big 2 foot by 2 foot logo on the side of his car for "tweaking" the suspension and assisting in tire selection?? Remembr, the tires and suspension dont do much on a staionary car with no motor.
10-19-2007, 06:47 AM
#216
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Originally Posted by IIQuickSilverII
hummm well you asked for the overbuild...which is different that "cautious overbuild"... or "i wanna sell more parts" overbuild.
no reason to trun this into a headstuds debate... we have seen over 1000whp proven on the L19s
no reason to trun this into a headstuds debate... we have seen over 1000whp proven on the L19s
10-19-2007, 06:49 AM
#217
Originally Posted by MRC Motorsports
Thats a good idea..Then it will Definitely blow up...
Just kidding Jeremy..
I think its better to find a completely independant tuner.One might be lead to believe that you have an "association" with RA based on looking at ETG/Louies car at the time attack event, based on the both of you sponsoring it. I think you best be left out of this process.
Just kidding Jeremy..I think its better to find a completely independant tuner.One might be lead to believe that you have an "association" with RA based on looking at ETG/Louies car at the time attack event, based on the both of you sponsoring it. I think you best be left out of this process.
10-19-2007, 06:51 AM
#218
Originally Posted by Sharif@Forged
I would like to ask Scott@Ra a few direct questions. If everyone else would refrain from posting until he has a chance to respond, I would appreciate it. I am to make this is on-topic as possible.
1) The build sheet we saw was clearly something you produced. It had your branded parts on it, and the fictitious parts I spoke of earlier, like Nismo main studs and Nismo head studs. So if the engine we installed was not referencing this build sheet, where is this motor with the fictitious parts? Clerical errors do not magically turn into fake parts on a build sheet.
2) I added up the cost of building this exact same engine in our shop. The price for anyone walking through the door would be $3600 without cams, and assuming you have cams in this engine, then the cost would be $4700. Let's make it an even $5000 to cover any misc items. This is my estimate for parts AND all labor, to produce this crate engine. Pete informed me that he paid much more than this, and the price he paid was his sponsorship special price. How can you explain this?
I have been doing this long enough, to know when something smells fishy.
1) The build sheet we saw was clearly something you produced. It had your branded parts on it, and the fictitious parts I spoke of earlier, like Nismo main studs and Nismo head studs. So if the engine we installed was not referencing this build sheet, where is this motor with the fictitious parts? Clerical errors do not magically turn into fake parts on a build sheet.
2) I added up the cost of building this exact same engine in our shop. The price for anyone walking through the door would be $3600 without cams, and assuming you have cams in this engine, then the cost would be $4700. Let's make it an even $5000 to cover any misc items. This is my estimate for parts AND all labor, to produce this crate engine. Pete informed me that he paid much more than this, and the price he paid was his sponsorship special price. How can you explain this?
I have been doing this long enough, to know when something smells fishy.
10-19-2007, 06:52 AM
#219
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Originally Posted by Motormouth
again, it is the car owners perogative who he wants to run sticker of on his car. it is a NON issue. this is simply our opinions
but ..did the eaglegreens car keep the FP sticker/banner? anybody can post pics plz on this thread... to see how bad a judgment eaglegreen made... if any case.... unless he signed an exclusivity agreement with fp, or if he removed completely the fp logo/sticker/decal of his car in place of a RA.... then its what ever the customer chooses to do
he did posted recently praising on sharifs customer service and all...so it sounded like everything was well discussed and sorted out in the end...