Si TRIM VORTECH.
01-08-2008, 12:40 PM
#141
Originally Posted by JET MECH
impeler speed calculations are as follows with my set up.
28 S/C COG
32 G/S COG
2.87 SERP PULLEY
6600 RPM SHIFT POINT 54,554.3
Si-TRIM MAX EFFICENCEY SPEED 55,000 RPM.
as you can see the s/c is not being overspead and is kept within it's peak operating envelope which i think is key! with this impeler designe it seem's to make more boost in the lower rpm range. i am going to list out all of the trim levels and there spec's right from the vortech hard parts catalouge i got a sema this year.
______________________________
V-2 SQ SUPERCHARGER TRIM LEVELS
______________________________
S-TRIM
MAX IMPELLER SPEED 50,000 RPM
PSIG 20PSI
FLOW/CFM 1,000
HORSE POWER 680
ISENTROPIC
EFFICIENCEY 72%
______________________________
SC-TRIM ( 350Z STOCK KIT SETUP )
MAX IMPELLER SPEED 53,000 RPM
PSIG 20PSI
FLOW/CFM 1,000
HORSE POWER 680
ISENTROPIC
EFFICIENCEY 75%
______________________________
Si-TRIM ( WHAT I AM RUNNING )
MAX IMPELLER SPEED 55,000 RPM
PSIG 26PSI
FLOW/CFM 1,150
HORSE POWER 800
ISENTROPIC
EFFICIENCEY 78%
______________________________
E-TRIM
MAX IMPELLER SPEED 65,000 RPM
PSIG 24PSI
FLOW/CFM 1,150
HORSE POWER 750
ISENTROPIC
EFFICIENCEY 76%
_______________________________
T-TRIM
MAX IMPELLER SPEED 55,000 RPM
PSIG 26PSI
FLOW/CFM 1,200
HORSE POWER 825
ISENTROPIC
EFFICIENCEY 73%
_______________________________
as you can see from the spec's it possibly might be a better application than the T-trim for the z! give me some feed back.........
28 S/C COG
32 G/S COG
2.87 SERP PULLEY
6600 RPM SHIFT POINT 54,554.3
Si-TRIM MAX EFFICENCEY SPEED 55,000 RPM.
as you can see the s/c is not being overspead and is kept within it's peak operating envelope which i think is key! with this impeler designe it seem's to make more boost in the lower rpm range. i am going to list out all of the trim levels and there spec's right from the vortech hard parts catalouge i got a sema this year.
______________________________
V-2 SQ SUPERCHARGER TRIM LEVELS
______________________________
S-TRIM
MAX IMPELLER SPEED 50,000 RPM
PSIG 20PSI
FLOW/CFM 1,000
HORSE POWER 680
ISENTROPIC
EFFICIENCEY 72%
______________________________
SC-TRIM ( 350Z STOCK KIT SETUP )
MAX IMPELLER SPEED 53,000 RPM
PSIG 20PSI
FLOW/CFM 1,000
HORSE POWER 680
ISENTROPIC
EFFICIENCEY 75%
______________________________
Si-TRIM ( WHAT I AM RUNNING )
MAX IMPELLER SPEED 55,000 RPM
PSIG 26PSI
FLOW/CFM 1,150
HORSE POWER 800
ISENTROPIC
EFFICIENCEY 78%
______________________________
E-TRIM
MAX IMPELLER SPEED 65,000 RPM
PSIG 24PSI
FLOW/CFM 1,150
HORSE POWER 750
ISENTROPIC
EFFICIENCEY 76%
_______________________________
T-TRIM
MAX IMPELLER SPEED 55,000 RPM
PSIG 26PSI
FLOW/CFM 1,200
HORSE POWER 825
ISENTROPIC
EFFICIENCEY 73%
_______________________________
as you can see from the spec's it possibly might be a better application than the T-trim for the z! give me some feed back.........
This is great that you can get just as good performance from the SI or E trim as the T-trim for a cheaper price and a little better efficiency . The only thing is to take advantage of the better efficiency . You need to run it to its limits or close to it . At half of the psi the blower is rated for , you arent even getting close to taxing the blower . Even when you do get the blower to turn enough rpm to get you to 13 to 15psi [ belt slip psi ] the blower isnt going to turn any faster and max it out
EDIT
If you bleed off boost [say at 13psi ] the blowers rpm should increase with engine rpm though .
Last edited by booger; 01-08-2008 at 01:24 PM.
01-08-2008, 01:21 PM
#143
Originally Posted by booger
This is great that you can get just as good performance from the SI or E trim as the T-trim for a cheaper price and a little better efficiency . The only thing is to take advantage of the better efficiency . You need to run it to its limits or close to it . At half of the psi the blower is rated for , you arent even getting close to taxing the blower . Even when you do get the blower to turn enough rpm to get you to 13 to 15psi [ belt slip psi ] the blower isnt going to turn any faster and max it out
01-08-2008, 01:26 PM
#144
Originally Posted by JET MECH
This is true! i will only try to push the superchargers max perameters once i have a built short block. till then i am happy were i am at. who knows, i might have to venture into the first cog setup for the rev-up vortech. my buddy owns his own machine shop so i would have the tooling and facility at hand.
edit...... for better spelling....been moving all day . I just sat down to drink a couple cups of coffee ....tired !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Last edited by booger; 01-08-2008 at 02:01 PM.
01-08-2008, 01:30 PM
#145
Originally Posted by booger
Let me know when you try it . I can take some pics of mine . It should have to be much different at all . As mine system just bolts up to the original bracket .
01-08-2008, 02:06 PM
#146
Increasing the boost on the blower to near max won't get the most efficiency. Actually the opposite is true.
We haven't seen a chart of the Si-trim yet, but it is a "bigger" blower than the SC-trim. The stock SC-trim is sized about as perfect as you can get for the VQ35 for stock boost.
As you add more boost, the blower efficiency graph always moves the curve upward and left, away from the peak efficiency island. If you had a larger engine, that would lower the curve and move it to the right more (psi drops, but cfm increases)
you run the blower near max to get the most power out of it that it can deliver, but its efficiency with where you land on the chart will be a little less than if you ran less boost
We haven't seen a chart of the Si-trim yet, but it is a "bigger" blower than the SC-trim. The stock SC-trim is sized about as perfect as you can get for the VQ35 for stock boost.
As you add more boost, the blower efficiency graph always moves the curve upward and left, away from the peak efficiency island. If you had a larger engine, that would lower the curve and move it to the right more (psi drops, but cfm increases)
you run the blower near max to get the most power out of it that it can deliver, but its efficiency with where you land on the chart will be a little less than if you ran less boost
Last edited by sentry65; 01-08-2008 at 02:30 PM.
01-08-2008, 02:35 PM
#147
So running a 78% efficient blower to its upper rpms will be more efficient than a blower with a 73% efficiency . Either way a 78% or 73% blower at half its max rpm's isnt going to be [ if any ] difference in efficiency . And even if it is , the difference [ 5%] isnt nothing to fret over . The temps between the 2 will very little . You could put both blowers on the same car an probably NOT see one bit a of difference .
01-08-2008, 02:47 PM
#148
probably, but it's going to depend on the blower, the engine size, and psi
We don't know what the Si-trim's compressor chart looks like yet.
It could be the efficiency drops off really fast, or is shaped to favor one side of the island, or it might have a long slow drop off.
All we know right now is it's much more powerful, and that's the main thing at the end of the day
I was just trying to point out that higher psi numbers usually move the curve up and left and the engine's probably too small for it to go across the peak efficiency island for long if the blower is being pushed hard
We don't know what the Si-trim's compressor chart looks like yet.
It could be the efficiency drops off really fast, or is shaped to favor one side of the island, or it might have a long slow drop off.
All we know right now is it's much more powerful, and that's the main thing at the end of the day
I was just trying to point out that higher psi numbers usually move the curve up and left and the engine's probably too small for it to go across the peak efficiency island for long if the blower is being pushed hard
Last edited by sentry65; 01-08-2008 at 02:58 PM.
01-08-2008, 05:05 PM
#149
We are talking .....like always . About our motors , the SI and T-trims [which you have no hands on with ] and mid psi [ 13 to 15 psi ] Thats where most guys will run it because of belt slip . Heck ..I believe you argued a couple of months ago that the T-trim would lose trq down low over the stock blower . Vortech doesnt release blower maps on ever thing they put out . So its hard to compare . But in the end...the SI , E and T-trim out performes the stock kit blower by far .
Last edited by booger; 01-08-2008 at 05:07 PM.
01-08-2008, 06:15 PM
#150
it can lose power at extreme low rpms as in below say 2500 rpms, but it does depend on if they have equal peak psi
you can have a small blower and large blower, both hitting 15 psi
the small blower will be more efficient at low rpms (more tq there) and less efficient at high rpms (less power)
the larger blower will be more efficient at high rpms and less at low rpms
it's very similar to exhaust theory
when you switched to a T-trim I believe you were hitting a much higher psi than with the stock blower, so in your case you probably gained low end power - though the auto doesn't lock the tq converter until 3500-4000 rpms or whatever so I don't know how you get a true accurate 1500-3000 rpms psi number
you can have a small blower and large blower, both hitting 15 psi
the small blower will be more efficient at low rpms (more tq there) and less efficient at high rpms (less power)
the larger blower will be more efficient at high rpms and less at low rpms
it's very similar to exhaust theory
when you switched to a T-trim I believe you were hitting a much higher psi than with the stock blower, so in your case you probably gained low end power - though the auto doesn't lock the tq converter until 3500-4000 rpms or whatever so I don't know how you get a true accurate 1500-3000 rpms psi number
Last edited by sentry65; 01-08-2008 at 06:20 PM.
01-08-2008, 06:31 PM
#151
The fact that either blower at 2500rpm isnt going to be making boost at all . Your rpms go up to fast to even get the BOV closed that soon . By the time the BOV closes and you start to build boost , 2500rpms is gone and your closing in on 3500rpms .
This isnt going to change from a AT5 or a MT6 . So please give the tranny and trq converter talk a rest .
This isnt going to change from a AT5 or a MT6 . So please give the tranny and trq converter talk a rest .
01-09-2008, 01:31 AM
#153
Originally Posted by sentry65
booger, when I'm in 6th gear at 2500 rpms and give it full throttle, I have somewhere around 1-1.5 psi of boost.
This also shows up on the dyno on my boost chart when doing 4th or 5th
gear pulls
This also shows up on the dyno on my boost chart when doing 4th or 5th
gear pulls
Knew that statement was coming.....I can do the same thing in my AT5
you knew what I meant !
Lets give this back to the OP.....shall we ? Its getting old ....AGAIN !
I like them both.
01-09-2008, 07:26 AM
#156
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Originally Posted by JET MECH
booger and sentry65.....i can tell you guys have a bit of history together.
01-09-2008, 10:59 AM
#157
just made my dyno tune appointment with Sam at GTM. the Z will be going down on Feb 5th and i will be picking it up on the 9th. i will be doing a strictly 100 octane tune. with this psi i dont want to even chance a 91 tune on a stock block. wish me luck.
01-09-2008, 11:54 AM
#158
so the 2 psi difference over the 2.87 pulley you feel warrants 100 octane gas? Jeremy just posted a dyno of 440h 375t on pump gas. If he let that guy drive out like that, i'm sure he feels safe about the motor.
good luck. Hopefully, i'll be retuning my Si at the end of Feb.
good luck. Hopefully, i'll be retuning my Si at the end of Feb.
01-09-2008, 12:24 PM
#160
Originally Posted by str8dum1
so the 2 psi difference over the 2.87 pulley you feel warrants 100 octane gas? Jeremy just posted a dyno of 440h 375t on pump gas. If he let that guy drive out like that, i'm sure he feels safe about the motor.
good luck. Hopefully, i'll be retuning my Si at the end of Feb.
good luck. Hopefully, i'll be retuning my Si at the end of Feb.
race gas = insurance
and JET MECH will possibly be pushing beyond what Jeremy did