XKR Super G... Going for Mach 1
#903
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I posted primarily because I think it would be fun to get an exchange of opinions on the subject.
The latest Car and Driver issue gave me the thought. As always, the Ferrari is portrayed as the god of all sports cars. Not that I follow GT1 and GT2 racing that closely, but if the Ferrari were as great a sports car as the car magazines make them out to be, it seems to me they should be winning more of these races.
As others have noted, Ferrari may not be providing factory backing for the Farrari teams, and thus the teams that are factory sponsored may simply have more resources. (Although I think some of the Porsche teams that are not factory sponsored are donig well). Such posts are an example of the conversation I was looking to trigger.
Not trying to jack the thread Mike.
It just sounds like a fun subject to discuss, and is tangentially related to many of the subjects we are discussing herein.
The latest Car and Driver issue gave me the thought. As always, the Ferrari is portrayed as the god of all sports cars. Not that I follow GT1 and GT2 racing that closely, but if the Ferrari were as great a sports car as the car magazines make them out to be, it seems to me they should be winning more of these races.
As others have noted, Ferrari may not be providing factory backing for the Farrari teams, and thus the teams that are factory sponsored may simply have more resources. (Although I think some of the Porsche teams that are not factory sponsored are donig well). Such posts are an example of the conversation I was looking to trigger.
Not trying to jack the thread Mike.
![Smilie](https://my350z.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif)
Changes are bound to be minimal on the 2008 version for the simple reason that the 2007 model was an unbridled success. It won the GT2 titles in both the FIA GT series and the American Le Mans Series, all while the F2007 took the Formula One title. Not a bad year, then, for racing Ferraris. But just as the F1 team is already hard at work preparing next year's grand prix car, so has Michelotto prepared an even better version of the F430 GT2 in pursuit of even more trophies in 2008.
![](https://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2007/12/f430gt2-08_web.jpg)
In regards to their road cars... the data speaks for itself, as do the editorial reviews that explain the human component. They are simply fantastic cars to drive and they have the performance to put that at the top model after model.
Their pedigree also comes from YEARS of involvement in all levels of motor racing, and countless championships. They are one of the oldest that has had continual involvement and success. Obviously I think your criticism is unfounded, especially considering your stated lack of understanding of the underlying situation. It was the phrasing of the question, and your follow ups that irked me, not the question itself. The car could well be a dog and I would admit that and laugh along with everyone else of course.
Last edited by Motormouth; 08-28-2009 at 02:41 PM.
#904
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^^^
Very informative. Yes, there is much more history I have glanced over.
I posted the results from the last GT2 race, but here are the results from the previous race:
1. Bergmeister/Long, Porsche 911 GT3 RSR, 108
2. O'Connell/Magnussen, Chevrolet Corvette C6.R, 108
3. Mueller/Milner, BMW E92 M3, 107
4. Gavin/Beretta, Chevrolet Corvette C6.R, 107
5. Melo/Kaffer, Ferrari 430 GT, 107
6. Henzler/Ragginger, Porsche 911 GT3 RSR, 107
7. Farnbacher/James, Panoz Esperante GTLM, 107
8. Hand/Auberlen, BMW E92 M3, 106
9. Law/Neiman, Porsche 911 GT3 RSR, 104
10. Robertson/Robertson/Murry, Ford GT MK 7, 102
Again, Ferrari was #5. In the top 4 were a 911, two Vettes and an M3.
I'm not a Ferrari hater. They are gorgeous!!! I think the Pininfarina designs are some of the most beutiful cars made. I feel the same way about the G35 Coupe (and no, I'm not contending that the stock G35 is anywhere near the performance of a Ferrari, and you see to many G35's on the road that they could never, never, never have anywhere near the status, not to mention the weight issue).
OK, the Ferrari is exclusive. What I don't quite understand is what makes it so much better than other exclusive vehicles to warrant so much praise given the price/performance ratio. In the latest Car and Driver article, they compared it to an Audi half it's cost. If they have to compare it to a vehicle half its cost, and that vehicle comes relatively close to the Ferrari's performance, how good is the price/performance ratio?
I do understand that there are not a lot of other cars in its price range. But if it is so good, instead of comparing it to an Audi, why not compare it to a Mclaren, a Saleen, a Pagani Zonda, etc.??? Then how will it fare? Why are GTRs, Corvettes and Vipers competing for the fastest lap times around the Nurburgring for a production vehicle, while nothing from Ferrari is competing??? Can it be that, because of their god-like status, they don't need to compete? Meanwhile, Nissan, Chevy and Chrysler are coming up to steel their performance glory... Also, there is the upcoming Lexus LF-A... Will the Ferrari 458 be able to compete on the track??? We will see.
Very informative. Yes, there is much more history I have glanced over.
I posted the results from the last GT2 race, but here are the results from the previous race:
1. Bergmeister/Long, Porsche 911 GT3 RSR, 108
2. O'Connell/Magnussen, Chevrolet Corvette C6.R, 108
3. Mueller/Milner, BMW E92 M3, 107
4. Gavin/Beretta, Chevrolet Corvette C6.R, 107
5. Melo/Kaffer, Ferrari 430 GT, 107
6. Henzler/Ragginger, Porsche 911 GT3 RSR, 107
7. Farnbacher/James, Panoz Esperante GTLM, 107
8. Hand/Auberlen, BMW E92 M3, 106
9. Law/Neiman, Porsche 911 GT3 RSR, 104
10. Robertson/Robertson/Murry, Ford GT MK 7, 102
Again, Ferrari was #5. In the top 4 were a 911, two Vettes and an M3.
I'm not a Ferrari hater. They are gorgeous!!! I think the Pininfarina designs are some of the most beutiful cars made. I feel the same way about the G35 Coupe (and no, I'm not contending that the stock G35 is anywhere near the performance of a Ferrari, and you see to many G35's on the road that they could never, never, never have anywhere near the status, not to mention the weight issue).
OK, the Ferrari is exclusive. What I don't quite understand is what makes it so much better than other exclusive vehicles to warrant so much praise given the price/performance ratio. In the latest Car and Driver article, they compared it to an Audi half it's cost. If they have to compare it to a vehicle half its cost, and that vehicle comes relatively close to the Ferrari's performance, how good is the price/performance ratio?
I do understand that there are not a lot of other cars in its price range. But if it is so good, instead of comparing it to an Audi, why not compare it to a Mclaren, a Saleen, a Pagani Zonda, etc.??? Then how will it fare? Why are GTRs, Corvettes and Vipers competing for the fastest lap times around the Nurburgring for a production vehicle, while nothing from Ferrari is competing??? Can it be that, because of their god-like status, they don't need to compete? Meanwhile, Nissan, Chevy and Chrysler are coming up to steel their performance glory... Also, there is the upcoming Lexus LF-A... Will the Ferrari 458 be able to compete on the track??? We will see.
Last edited by ttg35fort; 08-28-2009 at 05:16 PM.
#905
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![](https://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2007/12/f430gt2-08_web.jpg)
Regardless of everything I have said and all my questions, that car is extremely, extremely gorgeous.
I'm just expecting Ferrari to step up to the plate as far as performance goes and live up to their reputation. For the price they are asking, they need to show up at the Nurburgring and just make it happen. Maybe the new 458 will do it. It may not come through in my previous posts, but I hope they succeed. If they don't, then I will continue to question. (Meanwhile, I'll keep bulding my measly G35
![Smilie](https://my350z.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif)
Last edited by ttg35fort; 08-28-2009 at 05:11 PM.
#906
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could be rule changes from last year, or that the ferrari is getting old, I don't know off hand what changed. And Saleens did race in GT1 for a while, but saleen is no more. Pagani does race in Europe as do Lamborghini and McLaren. Teams generally don't win year over year forever... Even Audi loses with the R10 sometimes. You have to look at it in perspective.
And why don't they compare the F430 to a McLaren? Do you really have to ask that? You compare the ENZO to the McLaren.
Again, you seem to be narrowly focusing on specific examples (like that one magazine article, as opposed to the countless ones comparing it to lambos and porsches and lotuses etc) and then generalizing that out far too broadly.
I really don't know what to say honestly, but I don't think your point has any merit, you are simply expressing an opinion. I'll stop derailing this thread now.
And why don't they compare the F430 to a McLaren? Do you really have to ask that? You compare the ENZO to the McLaren.
Again, you seem to be narrowly focusing on specific examples (like that one magazine article, as opposed to the countless ones comparing it to lambos and porsches and lotuses etc) and then generalizing that out far too broadly.
I really don't know what to say honestly, but I don't think your point has any merit, you are simply expressing an opinion. I'll stop derailing this thread now.
#907
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^^^
Very informative. Yes, there is much more history I have glanced over.
I posted the results from the last GT2 race, but here are the results from the previous race:
1. Bergmeister/Long, Porsche 911 GT3 RSR, 108
2. O'Connell/Magnussen, Chevrolet Corvette C6.R, 108
3. Mueller/Milner, BMW E92 M3, 107
4. Gavin/Beretta, Chevrolet Corvette C6.R, 107
5. Melo/Kaffer, Ferrari 430 GT, 107
6. Henzler/Ragginger, Porsche 911 GT3 RSR, 107
7. Farnbacher/James, Panoz Esperante GTLM, 107
8. Hand/Auberlen, BMW E92 M3, 106
9. Law/Neiman, Porsche 911 GT3 RSR, 104
10. Robertson/Robertson/Murry, Ford GT MK 7, 102
Again, Ferrari was #5. In the top 4 were a 911, two Vettes and an M3.
I'm not a Ferrari hater. They are gorgeous!!! I think the Pininfarina designs are some of the most beutiful cars made. I feel the same way about the G35 Coupe (and no, I'm not contending that the stock G35 is anywhere near the performance of a Ferrari, and you see to many G35's on the road that they could never, never, never have anywhere near the status, not to mention the weight issue).
OK, the Ferrari is exclusive. What I don't quite understand is what makes it so much better than other exclusive vehicles to warrant so much praise given the price/performance ratio. In the latest Car and Driver article, they compared it to an Audi half it's cost. If they have to compare it to a vehicle half its cost, and that vehicle comes relatively close to the Ferrari's performance, how good is the price/performance ratio?
I do understand that there are not a lot of other cars in its price range. But if it is so good, instead of comparing it to an Audi, why not compare it to a Mclaren, a Saleen, a Pagani Zonda, etc.??? Then how will it fare? Why are GTRs, Corvettes and Vipers competing for the fastest lap times around the Nurburgring for a production vehicle, while nothing from Ferrari is competing??? Can it be that, because of their god-like status, they don't need to compete? Meanwhile, Nissan, Chevy and Chrysler are coming up to steel their performance glory... Also, there is the upcoming Lexus LF-A... Will the Ferrari 458 be able to compete on the track??? We will see.
Very informative. Yes, there is much more history I have glanced over.
I posted the results from the last GT2 race, but here are the results from the previous race:
1. Bergmeister/Long, Porsche 911 GT3 RSR, 108
2. O'Connell/Magnussen, Chevrolet Corvette C6.R, 108
3. Mueller/Milner, BMW E92 M3, 107
4. Gavin/Beretta, Chevrolet Corvette C6.R, 107
5. Melo/Kaffer, Ferrari 430 GT, 107
6. Henzler/Ragginger, Porsche 911 GT3 RSR, 107
7. Farnbacher/James, Panoz Esperante GTLM, 107
8. Hand/Auberlen, BMW E92 M3, 106
9. Law/Neiman, Porsche 911 GT3 RSR, 104
10. Robertson/Robertson/Murry, Ford GT MK 7, 102
Again, Ferrari was #5. In the top 4 were a 911, two Vettes and an M3.
I'm not a Ferrari hater. They are gorgeous!!! I think the Pininfarina designs are some of the most beutiful cars made. I feel the same way about the G35 Coupe (and no, I'm not contending that the stock G35 is anywhere near the performance of a Ferrari, and you see to many G35's on the road that they could never, never, never have anywhere near the status, not to mention the weight issue).
OK, the Ferrari is exclusive. What I don't quite understand is what makes it so much better than other exclusive vehicles to warrant so much praise given the price/performance ratio. In the latest Car and Driver article, they compared it to an Audi half it's cost. If they have to compare it to a vehicle half its cost, and that vehicle comes relatively close to the Ferrari's performance, how good is the price/performance ratio?
I do understand that there are not a lot of other cars in its price range. But if it is so good, instead of comparing it to an Audi, why not compare it to a Mclaren, a Saleen, a Pagani Zonda, etc.??? Then how will it fare? Why are GTRs, Corvettes and Vipers competing for the fastest lap times around the Nurburgring for a production vehicle, while nothing from Ferrari is competing??? Can it be that, because of their god-like status, they don't need to compete? Meanwhile, Nissan, Chevy and Chrysler are coming up to steel their performance glory... Also, there is the upcoming Lexus LF-A... Will the Ferrari 458 be able to compete on the track??? We will see.
GT1
1st = 40kg
2nd = 30kg
3rd = 20kg
4th = -20kg
5th = -30kg
6th = -40kg
and so on...
GT2 is half the weights of GT1. Max weight for GT1 is 100kg, and 50kg for GT2. If a car already carrying its maximum weight still wins 1st, it gets a higher maximum of 150kg for GT1 and 75kg for GT2.
The weight penalty system pretty much dissolves vehicle superiority; not entirely, but is very effective. The rest is up to the team and driver, and how deep their pockets are, or even better if they are factory backed.
#908
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^^^
Very informative. Yes, there is much more history I have glanced over.
I posted the results from the last GT2 race, but here are the results from the previous race:
1. Bergmeister/Long, Porsche 911 GT3 RSR, 108
2. O'Connell/Magnussen, Chevrolet Corvette C6.R, 108
3. Mueller/Milner, BMW E92 M3, 107
4. Gavin/Beretta, Chevrolet Corvette C6.R, 107
5. Melo/Kaffer, Ferrari 430 GT, 107
6. Henzler/Ragginger, Porsche 911 GT3 RSR, 107
7. Farnbacher/James, Panoz Esperante GTLM, 107
8. Hand/Auberlen, BMW E92 M3, 106
9. Law/Neiman, Porsche 911 GT3 RSR, 104
10. Robertson/Robertson/Murry, Ford GT MK 7, 102
Again, Ferrari was #5. In the top 4 were a 911, two Vettes and an M3.
I'm not a Ferrari hater. They are gorgeous!!! I think the Pininfarina designs are some of the most beutiful cars made. I feel the same way about the G35 Coupe (and no, I'm not contending that the stock G35 is anywhere near the performance of a Ferrari, and you see to many G35's on the road that they could never, never, never have anywhere near the status, not to mention the weight issue).
OK, the Ferrari is exclusive. What I don't quite understand is what makes it so much better than other exclusive vehicles to warrant so much praise given the price/performance ratio. In the latest Car and Driver article, they compared it to an Audi half it's cost. If they have to compare it to a vehicle half its cost, and that vehicle comes relatively close to the Ferrari's performance, how good is the price/performance ratio?
I do understand that there are not a lot of other cars in its price range. But if it is so good, instead of comparing it to an Audi, why not compare it to a Mclaren, a Saleen, a Pagani Zonda, etc.??? Then how will it fare? Why are GTRs, Corvettes and Vipers competing for the fastest lap times around the Nurburgring for a production vehicle, while nothing from Ferrari is competing??? Can it be that, because of their god-like status, they don't need to compete? Meanwhile, Nissan, Chevy and Chrysler are coming up to steel their performance glory... Also, there is the upcoming Lexus LF-A... Will the Ferrari 458 be able to compete on the track??? We will see.
Very informative. Yes, there is much more history I have glanced over.
I posted the results from the last GT2 race, but here are the results from the previous race:
1. Bergmeister/Long, Porsche 911 GT3 RSR, 108
2. O'Connell/Magnussen, Chevrolet Corvette C6.R, 108
3. Mueller/Milner, BMW E92 M3, 107
4. Gavin/Beretta, Chevrolet Corvette C6.R, 107
5. Melo/Kaffer, Ferrari 430 GT, 107
6. Henzler/Ragginger, Porsche 911 GT3 RSR, 107
7. Farnbacher/James, Panoz Esperante GTLM, 107
8. Hand/Auberlen, BMW E92 M3, 106
9. Law/Neiman, Porsche 911 GT3 RSR, 104
10. Robertson/Robertson/Murry, Ford GT MK 7, 102
Again, Ferrari was #5. In the top 4 were a 911, two Vettes and an M3.
I'm not a Ferrari hater. They are gorgeous!!! I think the Pininfarina designs are some of the most beutiful cars made. I feel the same way about the G35 Coupe (and no, I'm not contending that the stock G35 is anywhere near the performance of a Ferrari, and you see to many G35's on the road that they could never, never, never have anywhere near the status, not to mention the weight issue).
OK, the Ferrari is exclusive. What I don't quite understand is what makes it so much better than other exclusive vehicles to warrant so much praise given the price/performance ratio. In the latest Car and Driver article, they compared it to an Audi half it's cost. If they have to compare it to a vehicle half its cost, and that vehicle comes relatively close to the Ferrari's performance, how good is the price/performance ratio?
I do understand that there are not a lot of other cars in its price range. But if it is so good, instead of comparing it to an Audi, why not compare it to a Mclaren, a Saleen, a Pagani Zonda, etc.??? Then how will it fare? Why are GTRs, Corvettes and Vipers competing for the fastest lap times around the Nurburgring for a production vehicle, while nothing from Ferrari is competing??? Can it be that, because of their god-like status, they don't need to compete? Meanwhile, Nissan, Chevy and Chrysler are coming up to steel their performance glory... Also, there is the upcoming Lexus LF-A... Will the Ferrari 458 be able to compete on the track??? We will see.
http://www.americanlemans.com/results/2009/2009_GT2.pdf
#909
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The Ferrari is Number 2 in the Championship right behind the Flying Lizard Porsche
http://www.americanlemans.com/results/2009/2009_GT2.pdf
http://www.americanlemans.com/results/2009/2009_GT2.pdf
#917
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It's nature is to make a more efficient use of the high pressure on the top of the body. Unlike an aerofoil, that actually generates a downward force on the attached body, is partly the reason a diffuser can be so efficient as to increase the overall net pressure acting on the body with very little drag.
The main diffuser channel itself acts best when "sealed" to the ground. In the absence of any other channel to draw in air from, it will accelerate the air from the only path it can, which is preferably from the front of the car. Most racing series don't use the "sealed skirt" method anymore due to regulation strictly prohibiting it. The work around to this rule, is to make certain shapes protruding into the airstream i.e. vortex generators or canards, ahead of the side skirt area. This is far more complex to design, only a very specific type of flow pattern, can act to help seal the sides. It's not just sticking a canard at the corner off the bumper, it has to be a certain flow pattern for this to work.
It really isn't that hard to design something that will work using some good basic design philosophy. The hard part is when theres boundaries placed on the design. Trying to remain looking stock, is going to make this far more difficult.
#918
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^^^
The diffuser is the backside of a venturi that we are forming with the underbody. It is the throat of the venturi where the downforce is generated, which is positioned before the diffuser. Down force is generated when the velocity of the airflow through the throat is greater than the velocity of the air flow over the top of the car.
If you go way, way back in this thread, I explained that the diffuser acts to reduce the velocity of the air that was accelerated through the throat. Ideally, the velocity of the air exiting the diffuser will match that of the air flow over the top of the car, ignoring a bunch of other issues. While slowing the air flow, it is desirable to maintain control over the air flow patterns, which is what the diffuser also does. In doing so, better control over the total airflow under the car is maintained, thus optimizing the velocity of the airflow through the throat, and maximizing downforce.
Of course, nothing under the car is as simple as a basic venturi tube, so alot has to take place to fully exploit Bernoulli's principles.
The diffuser is the backside of a venturi that we are forming with the underbody. It is the throat of the venturi where the downforce is generated, which is positioned before the diffuser. Down force is generated when the velocity of the airflow through the throat is greater than the velocity of the air flow over the top of the car.
If you go way, way back in this thread, I explained that the diffuser acts to reduce the velocity of the air that was accelerated through the throat. Ideally, the velocity of the air exiting the diffuser will match that of the air flow over the top of the car, ignoring a bunch of other issues. While slowing the air flow, it is desirable to maintain control over the air flow patterns, which is what the diffuser also does. In doing so, better control over the total airflow under the car is maintained, thus optimizing the velocity of the airflow through the throat, and maximizing downforce.
Of course, nothing under the car is as simple as a basic venturi tube, so alot has to take place to fully exploit Bernoulli's principles.
Last edited by ttg35fort; 08-31-2009 at 05:59 AM.
#919
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^^^
The diffuser is the backside of a venturi that we are forming with the underbody. It is the throat of the venturi where the downforce is generated, which is positioned before the diffuser. Down force is generated when the velocity of the airflow through the throat is greater than the velocity of the air flow over the top of the car.
If you go way, way back in this thread, I explained that the diffuser acts to reduce the velocity of the air that was accelerated through the throat. Ideally, the velocity of the air exiting the diffuser will match that of the air flow over the top of the car, ignoring a bunch of other issues. While slowing the air flow, it is desirable to maintain control over the air flow patterns, which is what the diffuser also does. In doing so, better control over the total airflow under the car is maintained, thus optimizing the velocity of the airflow through the throat, and maximizing downforce.
Of course, nothing under the car is as simple as a basic venturi tube, so alot has to take place to fully exploit the Bernoulli's principles.
The diffuser is the backside of a venturi that we are forming with the underbody. It is the throat of the venturi where the downforce is generated, which is positioned before the diffuser. Down force is generated when the velocity of the airflow through the throat is greater than the velocity of the air flow over the top of the car.
If you go way, way back in this thread, I explained that the diffuser acts to reduce the velocity of the air that was accelerated through the throat. Ideally, the velocity of the air exiting the diffuser will match that of the air flow over the top of the car, ignoring a bunch of other issues. While slowing the air flow, it is desirable to maintain control over the air flow patterns, which is what the diffuser also does. In doing so, better control over the total airflow under the car is maintained, thus optimizing the velocity of the airflow through the throat, and maximizing downforce.
Of course, nothing under the car is as simple as a basic venturi tube, so alot has to take place to fully exploit the Bernoulli's principles.