what do you think I need for making high hp?
09-18-2009, 10:49 PM
#161
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high spring rate is a detriment,a band aid.you want the lowest pressure possible that does not induce float.dimensionally you are limited to spring mods considering spring installed height,od and id and all three are more or less consistent with oe.your left with number of coils and coil thickness with variations on a theme based on metalurgy.the window is small for adjustment and basing your decisions on increasing rpm range (float prevention) it gets even smaller.so for jw to say he has some special formula is bunk,he came to the same conclusions that anyone with an advanced understanding of spring rates and fatigue resistance would.and guess what....the harmonics will be great.
09-18-2009, 10:55 PM
#162
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go-fast.....out!
09-18-2009, 11:16 PM
#163
For those interested, some technical information from Ferrea. There is similar information posted by other manufacturers:
http://www.ferrea.com/products.php#vsprings
"Harmonics or high frequency fatigue is present in all racing engines and will usually destroy the valvetrain if not controlled. Properly designed valve springs will control the dominant harmonics, provide the needed stability, and reduce valvetrain component wear."
This is not magic, but certainly describes what is meant by "harmonically balanced".
http://www.ferrea.com/products.php#vsprings
"Harmonics or high frequency fatigue is present in all racing engines and will usually destroy the valvetrain if not controlled. Properly designed valve springs will control the dominant harmonics, provide the needed stability, and reduce valvetrain component wear."
This is not magic, but certainly describes what is meant by "harmonically balanced".
09-19-2009, 04:07 AM
#165
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For those interested, some technical information from Ferrea. There is similar information posted by other manufacturers:
http://www.ferrea.com/products.php#vsprings
"Harmonics or high frequency fatigue is present in all racing engines and will usually destroy the valvetrain if not controlled. Properly designed valve springs will control the dominant harmonics, provide the needed stability, and reduce valvetrain component wear."
This is not magic, but certainly describes what is meant by "harmonically balanced".
http://www.ferrea.com/products.php#vsprings
"Harmonics or high frequency fatigue is present in all racing engines and will usually destroy the valvetrain if not controlled. Properly designed valve springs will control the dominant harmonics, provide the needed stability, and reduce valvetrain component wear."
This is not magic, but certainly describes what is meant by "harmonically balanced".
Last edited by IIQuickSilverII; 09-19-2009 at 04:10 AM.
09-19-2009, 06:04 AM
#166
Ignorance is bliss.
Let me guess, you use BC cams and you have no idea of what your valve overlap or lobe separation angle is, right...
Oh I forgot, although it makes a significant difference in every other kind of motor, here in VQ lah, lah land it doesn't matter...
(Can't wait to see what this come back will be. I'll lay odds 20 to 1 it will be a personal attack without actually any actual facts to back it up. Once we start getting technical, you'll jump behind a "I won't be bated" comment, or something similar.)
Last edited by ttg35fort; 09-19-2009 at 06:10 AM.
09-19-2009, 07:46 AM
#168
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I personally have really enjoyed the cam discussion in this thread. I do pretty much all the work on my car, but as far as the real technical nitty gritty things like cam specs, I'm not as versed.
09-19-2009, 07:55 AM
#169
the first critical bit of info needed is jw doesn't have special harmonic springs.the second is cam card info is a loose description when it comes to identifying a cam.third but not least,motors should be built around a cam design,you can't just put a bigger cam in and expect it to work
i know what you are asking for and i told you 12 hrs ago,the only way to get the info you seek is to map YOUR cams personally.you will then have an acurate baseline and be able to use other datalogs to fine tune to a more desireable profile based on your motors individual needs.
i have been very accomodating to you especially considering this conversation opened with you telling me i don't know what i'm talking about.i put that aside and helped you anyway,but i'm concluding that you don't want to "get it" and am giving up.g'luck
there is no answer to "who makes the best cam",every app is different(even with similiar parts)
i know what you are asking for and i told you 12 hrs ago,the only way to get the info you seek is to map YOUR cams personally.you will then have an acurate baseline and be able to use other datalogs to fine tune to a more desireable profile based on your motors individual needs.
i have been very accomodating to you especially considering this conversation opened with you telling me i don't know what i'm talking about.i put that aside and helped you anyway,but i'm concluding that you don't want to "get it" and am giving up.g'luck
there is no answer to "who makes the best cam",every app is different(even with similiar parts)
For those interested, some technical information from Ferrea. There is similar information posted by other manufacturers:
http://www.ferrea.com/products.php#vsprings
"Harmonics or high frequency fatigue is present in all racing engines and will usually destroy the valvetrain if not controlled. Properly designed valve springs will control the dominant harmonics, provide the needed stability, and reduce valvetrain component wear."
This is not magic, but certainly describes what is meant by "harmonically balanced".
http://www.ferrea.com/products.php#vsprings
"Harmonics or high frequency fatigue is present in all racing engines and will usually destroy the valvetrain if not controlled. Properly designed valve springs will control the dominant harmonics, provide the needed stability, and reduce valvetrain component wear."
This is not magic, but certainly describes what is meant by "harmonically balanced".
^^^^^^
Ignorance is bliss.
Let me guess, you use BC cams and you have no idea of what your valve overlap or lobe separation angle is, right...
Oh I forgot, although it makes a significant difference in every other kind of motor, here in VQ lah, lah land it doesn't matter...
(Can't wait to see what this come back will be. I'll lay odds 20 to 1 it will be a personal attack without actually any actual facts to back it up. Once we start getting technical, you'll jump behind a "I won't be bated" comment, or something similar.)
Ignorance is bliss.
Let me guess, you use BC cams and you have no idea of what your valve overlap or lobe separation angle is, right...
Oh I forgot, although it makes a significant difference in every other kind of motor, here in VQ lah, lah land it doesn't matter...
(Can't wait to see what this come back will be. I'll lay odds 20 to 1 it will be a personal attack without actually any actual facts to back it up. Once we start getting technical, you'll jump behind a "I won't be bated" comment, or something similar.)
Quit being a douchebag and a stereotypical attorney who can't accept losing an argument.
Your own post about Ferrea backs up what go-fast kept trying to tell you and Jorge was pointing that out.
JWT, BC, and Ferrea springs are all harmonically balanced!!! But not special or excusive to any specific cam brand!!! Afterall, Ferrea doesn't make cams for the VQ, nor do they make springs specific to a particular brand of cam. So does that mean we should not use Ferrea valve springs in combo with JWT cams or BC cams? Of course not!!!Some of us (Jorge and I included) put our faith in our shop to know these things for us and to recommend which cams/springs they think are best for our application. If you think you know more than the guys at Intense Power, that just proves your utter arrogance and ignorance.
Last edited by RudeG_v2.0; 09-19-2009 at 08:27 AM.
09-19-2009, 10:36 AM
#170
I know of a guy with approx 10K miles on a built setup. 600-860whp power levels. BC2 cams, STOCK springs revving to 8500rpm's. It's no dyno queen he races, what do you doubters have to say about that?
We can turn this into a 10 page technical thread, or we can talk about what people are actually doing that are actually pushing their cars, and everyone can then decide for themselves what works.
We can turn this into a 10 page technical thread, or we can talk about what people are actually doing that are actually pushing their cars, and everyone can then decide for themselves what works.
09-19-2009, 10:49 AM
#171
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Quit being a douchebag and a stereotypical attorney who can't accept losing an argument.Your own post about Ferrea backs up what go-fast kept trying to tell you and Jorge was pointing that out.
JWT, BC, and Ferrea springs are all harmonically balanced!!! But not special or excusive to any specific cam brand!!! Afterall, Ferrea doesn't make cams for the VQ, nor do they make springs specific to a particular brand of cam. So does that mean we should not use Ferrea valve springs in combo with JWT cams or BC cams? Of course not!!!Some of us (Jorge and I included) put our faith in our shop to know these things for us and to recommend which cams/springs they think are best for our application. If you think you know more than the guys at Intense Power, that just proves your utter arrogance and ignorance.
It's not just being harmonically balanced, it's selecting the springs that are harmonically balanced with the particular cams you are running. Just because spring A is harmonically balance with cam A does not mean it will be harmonically balanced with cam B. It might be, but then it might not be. Someone always can take the risk and hope for the best. If the cams are sufficiently similar, it may not be a problem.
Do some research on the subject... but then again, it is much easier to sit back and criticize. Any douchebag can do that!!!!!!!
09-19-2009, 11:26 AM
#172
I know of a guy with approx 10K miles on a built setup. 600-860whp power levels. BC2 cams, STOCK springs revving to 8500rpm's. It's no dyno queen he races, what do you doubters have to say about that?
We can turn this into a 10 page technical thread, or we can talk about what people are actually doing that are actually pushing their cars, and everyone can then decide for themselves what works.
We can turn this into a 10 page technical thread, or we can talk about what people are actually doing that are actually pushing their cars, and everyone can then decide for themselves what works.
09-19-2009, 12:17 PM
#176
As I stated, ignorance is bliss.
It's not just being harmonically balanced, it's selecting the springs that are harmonically balanced with the particular cams you are running. Just because spring A is harmonically balance with cam A does not mean it will be harmonically balanced with cam B. It might be, but then it might not be. Someone always can take the risk and hope for the best. If the cams are sufficiently similar, it may not be a problem.
Do some research on the subject... but then again, it is much easier to sit back and criticize. Any douchebag can do that!!!!!!!
It's not just being harmonically balanced, it's selecting the springs that are harmonically balanced with the particular cams you are running. Just because spring A is harmonically balance with cam A does not mean it will be harmonically balanced with cam B. It might be, but then it might not be. Someone always can take the risk and hope for the best. If the cams are sufficiently similar, it may not be a problem.
Do some research on the subject... but then again, it is much easier to sit back and criticize. Any douchebag can do that!!!!!!!
[/sarcasm]
09-19-2009, 01:32 PM
#177
Here we go again...
Did I say use Ferrea valve springs??? I merely pointed to an example that clearly shows valve spring manufacturers are concerned with spring harmonics and it is not all just mumbo jumbo. But then again, you could not even understand that very simple example. I seriously doubt you even know what a harmonic is.
RudeG, ignore everything I have said, as you could never hope to ever come even close to understanding the physics involved. Mix and match cams and valve springs to your heart's content.
Did I say use Ferrea valve springs??? I merely pointed to an example that clearly shows valve spring manufacturers are concerned with spring harmonics and it is not all just mumbo jumbo. But then again, you could not even understand that very simple example. I seriously doubt you even know what a harmonic is.
RudeG, ignore everything I have said, as you could never hope to ever come even close to understanding the physics involved. Mix and match cams and valve springs to your heart's content.
09-19-2009, 06:52 PM
#178
I recall a tech article that indicated that once you identified a resonance problem at a particular rpm, you could tune it out by selecting springs with a natural higher frequency (less mass, higher spring rate, etc) or dampening the vibrations with an additional spring mechanism. There are calculators online that can find the first resonant frequency for any spring if you know it's spring constant and mass. My understanding is that springs are designed such that the frequency during normal operation is at least a full order of magnitude below its first resonant frequency.
Thus I would hope any valve spring sold for the VQ would not have an issue anywhere below 10k rpms. I found no published specs to help confirm this though.
I still don't see how spring resonance has any direct bearing on the cam and visa versa (so long as the spring force is always greater than the inertial force on the valve generated by the cam).
EDIT: After posting this, I read the post by Japtrix above on the cam-spring harmonics being interrelated. Any links to documentation to support this?
EDIT 2: Missed Alberto's post. It would seem that even the stock springs are sufficient - tried and true (even if the data points are few). It is possible that it just so happens that the aftermarket springs/cams available today for the VQ have no incompatibilities. So far we have data that supports the use of JWT springs with JWT cams (even if springs not called for), stock springs with BC cams, BC springs with BC valves, and JWT springs with BC cams.
Last edited by rcdash; 09-19-2009 at 07:04 PM.
09-20-2009, 06:58 AM
#179
Raj, I just PM'd you a brief analysis. It gets into the concepts Fourier Series representation and Fourier Transform, so I left it off the boards. If anybody else is interested, just PM me. If enough people are interested, then I'll go ahead and post it.
Last edited by ttg35fort; 09-20-2009 at 07:16 AM.
09-20-2009, 07:51 AM
#180
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^^^^^^
Ignorance is bliss.
Let me guess, you use BC cams and you have no idea of what your valve overlap or lobe separation angle is, right...
Oh I forgot, although it makes a significant difference in every other kind of motor, here in VQ lah, lah land it doesn't matter...
(Can't wait to see what this come back will be. I'll lay odds 20 to 1 it will be a personal attack without actually any actual facts to back it up. Once we start getting technical, you'll jump behind a "I won't be bated" comment, or something similar.)
Ignorance is bliss.
Let me guess, you use BC cams and you have no idea of what your valve overlap or lobe separation angle is, right...
Oh I forgot, although it makes a significant difference in every other kind of motor, here in VQ lah, lah land it doesn't matter...
(Can't wait to see what this come back will be. I'll lay odds 20 to 1 it will be a personal attack without actually any actual facts to back it up. Once we start getting technical, you'll jump behind a "I won't be bated" comment, or something similar.)
Last edited by IIQuickSilverII; 09-20-2009 at 07:53 AM.