G3po

iTrader: (8)

for Steve (forced) :

a) with the default kit 8psi@6500rpm, what is the max impeller speed? and what is the max allowable impeller speed? Just curious as to how much psi growth headroom there is if internals and fuel magement were to be upgraded.

b) Info about the timing controller provided with kit. Is it a simple open loop (rpm vs. psi) slope (similar to the FMU? Does it provide any additional inputs to switch slopes , ie . to compensate for and accidental bad tank of gas, etc.

c) Will Vortech sell a "tuner" verison of this kit? with no FMU and Timing controller? I would like to use a J&S type setup , and it would be a waste of $ to discard the default controller.

d) Is Vortech working on a 'full" G35C kit , were the the air filter plumbing is provided. I understand the AC line interference issue on the G.

e) has CARB application been submitted? If so when is an EO# expected.

Thanx

zland

There are plans to have 2 parts to this test. Part one involves ATI, Stillen, and Vortech with a stock motor/Z thrown in for a baseline in December. The good thing is you will see the Stillen SC representing the root type blower go up against the two centrifugal blowers (ATI/Vortech). Finally we will see how the low end torque/hp of the root blower stacks up to the high end hp/torque of the centrifugal on track, 1/4 mile, and dyno. I think once you see that, you will already have a better picture of the DW root blowers capabilities even before test #2 is done.

Part 2 soon after will appear to involve the Dream Workes SC, the Mossy NA, and the PE TT. Who knows, maybe by the time part 2 of the tests rolls around, we might have a Greddy ready to be in the test but with Greddy, I am not holding my breathe anymore on a set release date. My bet is the earlest you will see part two of the tests will be after the new year because when I spoke to DW, they could not have a car ready for the test before then.

Jeff - zland

fluidz

Forced

The max efficient impeller speed is 50,000. The absolute max is 53,000. The timing controller is not adjustable. It has a map of points based on rpm and boost. We will have a tuner kit available. I will get the part numbers and pricing up shortly. We have a G35 scheduled to come in for a test fit. We are in contact with the CARB and are working out an appointment date. To be safe, I would like to say that we will not have the EO# until June of next year.

G3po

iTrader: (8)

Thanx Steve, answered 99% of my questions.

So: max impeller efficient impeller speed is ~ 50,000 RPM

What is the G/Z "base kit" impeller speed @ ~6500 Tach RPM?

I just want to assess how much growth potential there is with this setup.

Thanx

zland

I read on another post that if you multiply the mustang dyno results by 1.15, you get the standard dyno numbers we are use to looking at. In this case, the Vortech dyno'ed at 301.3 hp on the Mustand dyno X 1.15 = 346.5 rwhp.

A common factor is to take a dyno number and multiply it X 1.17 to get crank hp. Based on the 346.5 X 1.17 = 405.4 crank hp. These are just estimates. The SportZ test will give us more dyno results on the Vortech soon.

Jeff - zland

G3po

iTrader: (8)

Steve forgot something.
Suggestion , if Vortech is indeed to to provide the air-filter setup fro G35, please, please,.... please do not use a "post SC" Air filter as the ATI kit does. No SC pre-filter and the greater loss of psi (for a post filter) are very un-attractive to me and I'm pretty sure other potential G35 SC customers.

IMHO.

Forced

I believe the crank pulley is 5.73 then the impeller speed at 6500 is 46,145 RPM.

jesseenglish

So that SC head appears to be somewhat maxxed out. Maximum of another .64 PSI of boost available assuming 46145 RPM will provide 8PSI

Forced

I asked that question and is seems that we can go with a 34 tooth jackshaft pulley or change impeller in the supercharger to an S-Trim. It is an SC-Trim now. We have not tried either here yet, so I don't have an outcome.

G3po

iTrader: (8)

What I would be looking for is possible growth up to 12psi max.
Granted engine internals need upgrade , but I wouldn't necessarily want to pay for another head unit in the future.

Would an S-trim unit be "louder" at low RPM?

One reason I am looking at the Vortech unit is , it's supposedly quieter "gurgle/whine" at low RPM

Forced

The only change would be the impeller. Not the gears. So the noise level should be the same. The S-Trim should be able to get you there, but like I said before, we have not tried and I don't know if we will be going there.

little_rod

Cool, zland, 346 rwhp sounds pretty reasonable and close to what the ATI is producing. Man, that makes the Vortech look like the best SC on the market, with its known reliability characteristics.

zland

The best dyno's I see on ATI seem to be around 368rwhp. The calculations I estimated for the Vortech (remember, just estimates) are 22hp less. Heck, add an exhaust and you have cut it down even less than that maybe. Some guys with the ATI are scared to rev it above 6000 rpm due to lean a/f thus I bet that 22hp is not even there in real life because if you look at the hp of centrifugal SC like the Vortech and ATI both are, the best gains in hp are achieved in the 5-6600rpm ranges.

I guess it depends on what is more important to a buyer. Vortech has a history of good customer service and their kit has timing retarded on higher rpm's to prevent lean a/f mixtures from occuring.

On the other hand, if you think ATI's method of customer service is better -read the letters from ATI most recently and the letters from their related company, JIC, ie the JIC car. I think these letters describe their method of dealing with problems. What i got out of those letters is
1. Dont track or drift your car unless you are an expert on engine tuning, chances are, you will have engine problems.
2. If you buy the kit as it, dont run the motor hard, it is not built to be driven hard. In fact, it would be best if you added new radiators and oil coolers to prevent overheating.
3. Because the kit is flawed, they imply it might be best to make it a tuner kit. Again, you should modify all type of components to make the kit safe and have years of experence in tuning to drive this kit.

I did a quick summary of those letters from memory from about 24 hours ago. If I am incorrect, pls correct me. If I am correct, another person summed it up well "the ATI kit is a R&D project". I know some people like that type of thing.

For me, i just want reasonable performance with only minor maintence. I enjoy learning about cars but dont want to have to be a mechanical engineer to own a kit and to possibly get 20 more hp.

Jeff - zland

Ag Z

If ATI turns it into a tuner kit and then we use the fuel setup that puts the pump and FPR in parallel and buy the Split Second timing controller then both kits will work just the same.

Just wait till a head unit on the Vortech takes a dump and destroys the engine with trash, then the board will be off this bandwagon and on to the next "mobettergood" setup.

No kit is going to be perfect. Each engine is different. The graphs on this kit are not smooth, they have dips that say something needs to be tweaked just a bit. The Z was not designed to be FI, it will have issues when boost is added. Adding headers and exhaust raises the price(same as adding the fuel/timing setup to an ATI kit), and then you will lean out the settings that were programed into the setup and guess what, now you have a lean condition. We all know what happens when you lean out the engine.

Till the ECU is cracked and fuel and timing can be adjusted within it it's all just band-aids on a deep cut. Not perfect but "good enuff" for most.

If you want it to last forever leave it stock, if you want to go fast, mod it, but it's not as likely as to last the same amount of time.

zland

Yes, stock is th most reliable but there is a balance between performance and reliability. The ATI kit is blowing a lot of motors, there is no balance IMO.

If the Vortech runs into repeated engine failures, I will be critical of them too. The reason I think they will do beter is simple. Go to ATI and Vortech forums and compare the amount of complaints of each, then compare how each company services their problems.

Just notice the amount of feedback Vortech gives on this thread compared to ATI issuing "canned" statements to control liability rather than interact with customers. Which one serves you better? If you feel ATI's service is better, by all means buy their product.

As far as reliability. If all FI kits are consistantly blowing motors, i wont do it then. All of the guys that claim so have vast experience with FI and claim you will blow a motor, then I got one question for them. Why are you doing it then? If that is the case, i will just go buy another car like a Z06. I am not into throwing away $5-6000 on a kit, blowing up a motor that cost $8,000. If someone expects to do that and does it anyways, can they explain the logic in that one?

Many manufactures offer stock or add on SC kits such as TRD for toyota. I have not heard of them having problems with those products, has anyone else? I disagree that a SC kit cannot be made reliable. Based on that fact alone.

You mentioned cracking the ECU as the solution. In that case, DW's claim they are doing just that with their SC kit coming in January. Based on your opinion, maybe that is the kit to buy but of course it seems it will not be reliable to you since all SC kits lead to blown motors just like the ATI?

ravaz

iTrader: (1)

I got a headache from you guys

QuartZ

Steve (Forced) I have a critical question I guess...based on some of the info/opinions of others here with regards to this SC and other mods I would like to do.

My plan for my Z is this:
Vortech SC

I would like to go from there into headers, hi-flo cats, and exhaust.

That's all I want to do. It sounds like the back end stuff could cause a problem with the tuning of the SC (perhaps a lean condition). Is this correct?

What mods are you guys recommending to compliment the Vortech SC and your tuning?

Thank you,
-Dana

zland

QuartZ:

Great quesiton!

Forced

A cat-back and even hi-flow cats should be OK. When it comes to headers...Generally shorty style seem to work with our tune up. When you get into long tube, there generally is a problem. I think your best bet is the cat-back and some hi-flow cats. If you get into headers, you may want to get it on a dyno to check air/fuel.