12sec: Have you dynoed your car with your current setup?

I am considering the better injectors in the future as well. I have the J&S Timing Retard device on order instead of the TS reflash. My rev limiter is at 7100.

I still haven't heard from Mike other than an e-mail saying to look for another e-mail concerning things to come.

What did he tell those of you whom he called?

 

judging from your rev limiter, it looks like you've already been flashed Dr Bonz

 

Yes how did you get your rev limiter set at 7100 rpm?

I don't think I'd piggy back anything on this car untill did a ECU reflash

 

He simply inquired about my setup Bonz and promised a reflash even if it meant flying out here. He stood behind his service and manned up and to me bought back me as a customer.

He did mention being extremely swamped and the details of this reflash are still unclear at this point.

I think you are on the right tracl with the larger injectors, fuel pump and timing retard. I can'r speak on the J&S only TS which has worked for me. You may feel free to PM me with any specifics of my setup but it's in my sig and my contact is Victor Reyes of RB Motoring

 

When Mike did my install he flashed the ECU but I was under the impression that it was only to increase the rev limiter and nothing else. That was done for free as a bonus for being one of his first installs.

 

I didn't know they had a program that just did that, that would be pointless. You ought to have Mike redo your timing though too since you have easy access to his box.

 

i believe that some timing would have to be written to your ECM for the new rev limit to work, since there shouldn't be any stock timing maps out past the stock rev limit

 

If you intend to use a J&S external, you probably want to request that they "go easy" on the timing alteration. The ECU can only adjust timing upon MAF (not used for WOT), RPM, Temperature and learned baseline (learned during closed loop operation , but probalby has a fractional impact factory WOT timing). The ECU does not have the ability to sense or measure +psi (ie a wide range MAP sensor. So an ECU-only timing method needs to be set conservatively (since it is open-loop_ @ WOT)

With a J&S controller , the timing retard method can be done in a more comprehensive manner. Partly based upon "Boost+RPM" and party based upon "Knock detection". This hybrid theortically should allow you to run closer to optimum timing in the mid-range under boost nad still have repeatable safety margin. This should result in more area under the curve msot as a result to improved mid-range TQ.

In 12Secs setup , there may be some untapped power that the full openloop method has stripped.

IMO.

 

I agree with G3po. The J&S does have some important advantages. Another is that the J&S can retard timing on individual cylinders rather than just making a broad sweep correction when knock is detected. And since the stock ecu probably was not designed with FI in mind, it may not be able to pull as much timing based on knock.

 

EXPOUND PLEASE!

 

When reprogramming the Factory ECU, there is only so much that can be done within the factory unit, since the factory design was never intended for >1 Atmosphere operation. So the ECU tuner(s) can do things like:

a) raise rev and speed limiter. In a centrifical SC case raising the rev limit raises the peak boost.

b) reduce the effect off factory learning algorithms. This allows more repeatablity when tuning other systems such as intake exhaust etc. for WOT operation. even though these varibale smay be adjusted when in closed loop , they do have a bearing on WOT operation. If the factory ECU detects exessive knock (say beuase of bad gas) it must still protect the engine under WOT operation also , even if knock inout is squelcehed under actual WOT operation. So the ECU will assume a less aggressive timing map to protect the engine under WOT.

c) Optimally adjust A/F and Timing characteristics when below 1 atmosphere

d) adjust AT shift characterisitcs. Both points and speed of shift.
Since vacuum look odd to the factory ECU when under boost , they can clean up weird shifting when at what appears to be 0psi.

e)alter the transiton pont between closed and open loop operation.

f) adjust throttle characteristics, only possible due to drive by wire.Tuners can actually make the thottle "feel" more crisp by giving it a little non-linear low at low actuation. I've heard of tuners doing this to Beemers.

g) alter the operation of traction and stablity control. I think the most they woudl be doing here is to disable the function. I don't think the tuners are versed enough in vehical dymamics to safely teak these operations witout significant liablity.

etc.

Specifically (in a non-optimal way) for FI applications they can:

h)re-calibrate the A.F map to compensate for oversized injectors.
This map can not be made to track boost prefectly , so some open loop correlations must be made specifically under WOT.
Basically they will predict boost based upon a limited set of input variables. The most predominat variable is RPM. Others such as IAT, water temperature etc. can also be used to adjust the prediction. However; what they can not do is perfectly map 1:1 A/F based opon the "actual" real time boost. However; having a little fatter A/F curve for safety is less obtrusive to optimum WOT power than overly conservative Timing retard.

i)recalibrate the timing map in a similar fashion to b).
Issue with this , is that in order to produce adeqautte safety margin, the timing retard must be slightly more aggressive (correlated to expected boost). I wouldlseriously doubt that any ECU tuner is makeing use of the knock sensor under WOT at high RPM.

So were you could loose some power (mostly TQ in the mid band) is due to this slightly "over conservative timing retard" curve. The ECU can not tract very closely to the actual points of detonation onset in any specific cylinder. So if a J&S method really works as advertised ,what it could provide is a timing map which "pushes" closer to the optimum timing under boost ,since it can account for the valuble input variables such as per cylinder knock and boost. The factory ECU reflash is a rougher approximation.

Lot of verbage, but I beleive there is at least some truth in the expanation. I do n ot fully know how robust the J&S algotrithm is in its ablity to isolate valid knock signatures from background noise under mid to high RPM. If it does this well, then it will offer a very near optimum solution.

 

Well they installed my injectors while I was there and they did your subsection "h, and i."

I am keeping an open mind on the Safeguard I just don't have 500 bucks right now. I feel much safer with this setup than I do with the stock FMU one though I assure you. I pound my car everyday now, the first time I didn't even make it home. It's been about 3k miles since larger injector and reflash too!

 

IOW's I want the JS Safeguard but I'm broke (in laymans terms.) But yes, they did do A through I above, but I am striving for perfection and my shift points could be better.

 

I don't think the safeguard will do much good for you since your timing is already retarded through the ECU flash.

 

Well hey, you just saved me 500 bucks man,

Thanks!

I could use it right now!

 

I don't imply that you TS e-flash is not a "safe setup at all".
All I speculate is that with a more "active , closed loop" method
not viable given the input limitations of the ECU (it' a hardware limitation of the system and not really under TS re-flash capablity)
you may be able to push the TQ curve up specifically in the mid band. Granted $500 is a pretty steep price for experimentation.

I would recommend to anyone considering a re-flash (if they have the $$$) is to go easy on the de-timing in the re-flash and give themselves more room fro optimization via a piggy back controller such as J&S. It may also allow added gains at the track is ~100 UL is used , since the timng curve can adjust somewhat automatically, The NIMO ECU will never be able to do this, regradles how well the ECU tuner wlaks on water.

Personally I also prefer a controller scheme which can track boost changes (ie via pulley) replacement also. Again there is no determnistic way for the ECU tuner to provide this capability and I don't want to be indentured to the tuner. It requires either piggy back A/F + Timing or a complete ECU swap.

 

OK,

In English please. I know you are trying to help but you are way other my head in knowledge. I don't have engineering degrees.

I know you are one of the strongest proponents of WI on all the boards and know all the intricicies of WI but let's just rule that out for me OK?

I am not going WI for whatever reason, it's too involved and requires too much maintenace. I'm not knocking it, it's just not for me. I am going to up my boost though despite others fears, I think I will be OK. I'm not gonna redline through every gear at the track twice a week for 11 second times slips I just want 400rwhp and more torque. I think I have the fuel supply to do it. I would certainly consider (and have been for a week) a AEM or similiar fuel rail but can you point me to a link for one for my car, I can't find one?

Secondly, it sounds like you are saying I am too retarded ( )
so are you suggesting that when I go back for my reflash for my 9 lbs and cat pipes to tell them to not retard the timing as much as they originally did? I don't want expirements, I want safety measures that work, this one that I did (switching from FMU to TS/PE was proven b4 I did it.) I think you are asking me to expirement and I will leave that to somone else. Anything easier I can do that is not risky sure, I'm all ears!

 

I just wanted to quote this so I can come back to it later when I have time. I have a feeling that if you went back and really read G3po's post, then read yours again, you'd change it. You're not making sense....

 

You're not doing anything but following me harrasing me either. No substance to your post at all just another Max bash because you feel protected here. 2 in two threads in one hour. Stop bothering me, your plan is to try and get me in trouble here and it is obviuos. Please just do me a favor and leave me alone Gary. Thanks.

 

Well got off the phone with Nissan Engineer (coolinfo)
Take it for what its worth...but I have been in contact with nissan engineers because of my car problem and they are shipping my transmission to califoria. They were all Japanese, the NNA guy incharge of training techs and handles all the service and parts departments in my region.

Not giving any names but this guy KNEW HIS SH*T. (Blew my mind.) He said something about hes the guy that trains the techs on the new model cars or something like that. Said something about a 310 hp V8 truck coming and a SUV and that alot of new models appearing to public in December.

I talked to him for 2 hours tonight and asked him alot of questions because he knew all the answers and confidently stated so. He helps the engineer "Task Force" and is the guy at NNA that has been helping me with my problems. He said my car has raised enough red flags SO I guess my car has become the official test pig thats why they are sending parts back to california.

"Highlights"

He said YOU CANNOT get performance gains with out either reprograming the ecu or faking it by cutting or sodering some wires/circuts and making it think it is running in normal specs. He said thats what aftermarket companies do when they "so called reprogram" the ecu and then charge $1300 bucks for it...(he laughed at that).... He said without faking it would do something about running in fail safe mode which makes it even crapper than stock specs....his example to my dumb *** was like windows 98 running in safe mode when there is a error.

He told me to save my money on the aftermarket mods until the air/fuel mapping info is released.

He said that a K&N won't make that much differences because of the way the 02 computers are run...It would just last longer than a normal airfilter.

He kept on saying the ECM needs to be reprogramed and released...OR cheaply faking out the computer by messing with the o2 sensors.

He told me that a easy way to prove that your aftermarket bolt ons aren't working would be to to run emmission tests before and after...if they are the same then your ECU compensated for the bolt on and just changed the mapping back to normal specs aka no gain OR defaulted to fail safe mode aka loss HP

He said that any mod would have to have the program retuned on the ECM to keep the computer from thinking its running too lean or rich. He said emissions are a big source for finding HP and mentions something about 320 hp total for a correctly tuned ecu.

Thats what he heard was capable of...

He said that he knows the specs/diagram of the ecu very well and what wire would need to be cut and resistors that need to be placed.

I told him...he needs to start a aftermarket company and sell it Darn conflict of interests


He also said that the 350z 2003 was detuned to 287.

I asked why...he said NISSAN did it so that the car on its debut wouldnt have major problems with a maxed out air/fuel maping and some kind of curve????? Nissan couldn't risk the 350Z being a flop and press slaming it because of problems. Also keeping the 50 state emissions in legal specs was part of it too. Nissan was conservative on maping the ecu this time. In future Z cars if this launch is successful they will dial up the mapping to increase the power. He also said something like they would increase the mass air flow sensor and essembly that would increase the breathing of the car.

He also said that NISMO is definitly making a turbo kit and HE PERFERRS the supercharger and thinks we should all be going on the forums asking for a nismo supercharger since nissan does pay serious attention to the major forums on the net.....

He went on and on about turbos being more touble than they are worth....

He said the supercharger has less parts, more reliable, and he doesnt have to change the exhaust system. More parts equals more things that can go wrong. He said that the Turbo option would also be very expensive.

Secondly he said it would be a nightmare because owners would boost the heck out of em them and blow their motors. He likes the painless less expensive supercharger and thinks it would be more reliable because of a belt driven pulley that has less problems and mention that the compression was too high for a reliable high boost turbo setup.

MAN I wish I was more technical. He mentioned alot of numbers, compression figures, Volts needed per sensor, Air/fuel mixture levels and so on.

LOL...I bottom lined it for him at the end of the conversation....

HOW CAN I GET MORE HP!!!!!

He said air intake kits, cams and exhaust sytems will just change the sound of the car until you can figure a way to reprogram the car or trick the sensors. He said with them fooled that we would see some slight gains. He mentioned something about the ECU going into fail safe mode again (he lost me there with some more technical figures)

The car will do good with a forced induction kit that is setup correctly with the mapping.....(supercharger all the way he said)

Lastly he said Nitros....That shocked me...I said "really you think its safe to run on the Z ?" then he suddenly changed the topic...LOL

So...moral of the 350z story...ECU and EMISSONS are the enemy.

SUPERCHARGERS and Mass air flow system raised from 20 something to 30 something are what he would do.

Nitros----for race cars only


My brain is on overload with info from him...if i can remeber more stuff he said I'll post it on this thread.


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Last edited by InternetABYSS on 10-16-2002 at 10:10 PM