LSs1Power

The only problem with the Procharger soo far is the belt slippage for people who want to run more than 12psi. Other than that, there is no problems. Most of the LS1 guys dont blame Procharger, Vortech, and the others if they blown their motors because they understand what they are getting into. But to answer ur question we dont have owners with procharger complaining about blown motors. The LS1 Edit is nice because it allow us to overwrite our stock PCM program without the addition of an external PCM such as E-manage. Of course our stock PCM cant handle tuning a car that is over 700rwhp so some people get the FAST system when they reach that power levels. If i had a 350Z and wanted to mod the hell out of it, i would invest in a E-manage because its the best software soo far that i have found for import cars.

elektrik_juggernaut

that wasn't my question.....but thats okay

i looked at the kit for your cars, and strangely, ATI saw fit to include in your kits some type of ignition retard.....even though the kit is producing 5-7psi.......so i can see why you folks don't have too many blown-up motors

Now if you look at our kit......it doesn't come with any type of ignition retard.......and the kit is designed for 7-8psi.......on top of that, our ECM's advance the the timing considerably in the higher RPM's.......like to 28 BTDC@6500 RPMs......don't you think that's a little high for this application?

Black LS1 T/A

Perhaps it is not what day you were born, but whether you are used to people who try to help selflessly. Actually, I DO have SOME motivation to see you guys boost successfully. I made this post at Ls1.com after seeing someone post about your ATI bashing over here. Instead of calling you all a bunch of whiners and losers, I posted this:

I think some of you techie types should ask for a PCM/Tuning section, research your options for tuning and take the lead on educating your community on conscientiously tuning their vehicles if they are going to run FI. We tell our guys to stay N/A if they aren't going to learn how to tune... or aren't willing to spend the money for a custom tune.

Check out the activity on this one section of our PCM Diagnostics and Tuning forum:

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=7

The Boosted guys should be furiously posting questions and answers in such a forum.

Oh.. I'm no troll... I'm one of the moderators of www.LS1Tech.com. I manage the Boosted List for our forum and my car is in the top 10 (#7).

http://www.blackls1ta.com/boosted_list.htm

Don't bash ATI... learn how to use their product. Listen to their advice if you are going to run t heir kit... they are not a fly-by-night company that just started up to take people for a ride (not the bad kind, anhway). They've been winning races and are the leader in intercooled supercharger applications.

Whoever you use, Vortech, ATI, etc. if you go ANYWHERE beyond the basic kit by putting on more power-adders or revving your engine higher than recommended or boosting it more than standard for the kit, you will ABSOLUTELY need to address tuning!

When a supercharger or turbo company gives a different market a blown option they initially risk finger-pointing that their product broke that car, until people learn the bounds of the device and how to use it.

Again, good luck!

-----------

I'd rather be blown, bored AND stroked!
Michael Buie

Black LS1 T/A

Thanks, LSs1Power. Thanks for coming over and chatting with these guys. It appears you know something about their car. That's good.

I'm not the smartest kid on the block when it comes to FI, but I darn sure ask a lot of questions to avoid exploding my engine!

elektrik_juggernaut

my car is stock except for the Procharger kit.......it gets detonation in the higher RPM's.......the stock timing is too high

i can totally understand why you guys are so happy with ATI........from what it sounds like, all you've ever gotten were a few shredded belts.....unfortunately, that's not the case with our kit.......but thanks for trying to help us out

Black LS1 T/A

Not really. I don't know anyone who has to retard timing on the LS1 because of 5 (standard for the base ATI kit) PSI. Now, IF they can't get 93 octane, I know some guys getting above that, maybe to that 7 PSI mark, that play it safe and retard some. But, the base kit did not come with a retarding mechanism (unless there are now doing something new). We have to get a tuner to retard timing or use LS1-Edit, or some other mechanism.

Hmmm... I would assume a smaller engine would be capable of more rpms or more boost than ours without risk of detonation. But, I am in untested waters here. Perhaps if someone could ask an ATI rep about it... maybe they won't feel they risk getting burned by sticking their nose out and providing advice.

They are the ones who tested your vehicle with the blower. But, sadly, a year or more of testing two or three vehicles won't address ALL the issues scores of guys with various engine configurations, climates and elevations might experience. But, I would sure be picking ATI's brains on the issues until it was very well nailed down.

That's odd the car actually advances timing at the highest rpms... but you didn't exactly say that. Our rpms are lower at first and do rise, but it not quite that simple. I'm gonna make another post... this one feels too long.

Black LS1 T/A

This is a portion of my stock timing map (from 400 to 6000 RPMs, the rest of the way out looks like 6000 RPMs).

The y-axis, up and down is in grams/cylinder, going up to 1.0 g/c. (Some of our later PCM's go to 1.2 g/c, I think)

19.0|22.0|27.0|30.0|34.0|38.0|41.0|41.0|41.0|41.0|40.0|40.0| 40.0|39.0|39.0|39.0|39.0|38.0|38.0|38.0
19.0|22.0|27.0|30.0|34.0|38.0|41.0|41.0|41.0|41.0|40.0|40.0| 40.0|39.0|39.0|39.0|39.0|38.0|38.0|38.0
19.0|22.0|27.0|30.0|34.0|38.0|41.0|41.0|41.0|41.0|40.0|40.0| 40.0|39.0|39.0|39.0|39.0|38.0|38.0|38.0
19.0|22.0|27.0|30.0|34.0|38.0|38.0|38.0|38.0|38.0|38.0|38.0| 38.0|39.0|39.0|39.0|39.0|38.0|38.0|38.0
17.0|22.0|28.0|31.0|34.0|36.0|37.0|38.0|38.0|38.0|38.0|38.0| 38.0|38.0|38.0|38.0|38.0|38.0|38.0|38.0
14.0|20.0|25.0|28.0|31.0|33.0|35.0|36.0|37.0|37.0|37.0|37.0| 37.0|36.0|35.0|35.0|35.0|35.0|35.0|36.0
13.0|18.0|24.0|27.0|28.0|31.0|33.0|34.0|35.0|35.0|35.0|35.0| 35.0|35.0|33.0|33.0|33.0|33.0|35.0|35.0
9.0|17.0|22.0|26.0|27.0|30.0|33.0|33.0|34.0|34.0|34.0|34.0|3 4.0|34.0|32.0|32.0|32.0|32.0|33.0|33.0
5.0|15.0|21.0|24.0|26.0|29.0|30.0|31.0|32.0|33.0|34.0|34.0|3 4.0|34.0|32.0|32.0|32.0|32.0|31.0|31.0
4.0|12.0|17.0|22.0|23.0|27.0|29.0|30.0|31.0|32.0|33.0|33.0|3 3.0|33.0|31.0|31.0|31.0|31.0|31.0|31.0
0.0| 8.0|13.0|17.0|21.0|25.0|26.0|29.0|30.0|31.0|32.0|33.0|33.0|3 3.0|30.0|28.0|28.0|29.0|31.0|31.0
-2.0| 4.0|11.0|15.0|18.0|21.0|23.0|26.0|28.0|29.0|30.0|31.0|32.0|3 2.0|27.0|27.0|27.0|28.0|31.0|31.0
-4.0| 2.0| 8.0|12.0|15.0|18.0|20.0|24.0|27.0|28.0|29.0|30.0|32.0|31.0|2 6.0|27.0|27.0|28.0|31.0|31.0
-4.0| 2.0| 7.0|10.0|14.0|17.0|19.0|22.0|26.0|27.0|28.0|29.0|31.0|30.0|2 5.0|26.0|26.0|27.0|29.0|28.0
-4.0| 2.0| 6.0| 9.0|13.0|16.0|19.0|20.0|24.0|27.0|28.0|28.0|30.0|29.0|25.0|2 6.0|26.0|27.0|28.0|28.0
-4.0| 2.0| 6.0| 9.0|13.0|16.0|18.0|20.0|24.0|27.0|28.0|28.0|29.0|28.0|25.0|2 5.0|24.0|26.0|28.0|28.0
-4.0| 2.0| 6.0| 9.0|13.0|16.0|18.0|20.0|24.0|27.0|28.0|28.0|29.0|28.0|25.0|2 4.0|23.0|26.0|28.0|28.0
-4.0| 2.0| 6.0| 9.0|13.0|16.0|18.0|20.0|24.0|27.0|28.0|28.0|29.0|28.0|25.0|2 4.0|23.0|26.0|28.0|28.0
-4.0| 2.0| 6.0| 9.0|13.0|16.0|18.0|20.0|24.0|27.0|28.0|28.0|29.0|28.0|25.0|2 4.0|23.0|26.0|28.0|28.0
-4.0| 2.0| 6.0| 9.0|13.0|16.0|18.0|20.0|24.0|27.0|28.0|28.0|29.0|28.0|25.0|2 4.0|23.0|26.0|28.0|28.0
-4.0| 2.0| 6.0| 9.0|13.0|16.0|18.0|20.0|24.0|27.0|28.0|28.0|29.0|28.0|25.0|2 4.0|23.0|26.0|28.0|28.0
-4.0| 2.0| 6.0| 9.0|13.0|16.0|18.0|20.0|24.0|27.0|28.0|28.0|29.0|28.0|25.0|2 4.0|23.0|26.0|28.0|28.0
-4.0| 2.0| 6.0| 9.0|13.0|16.0|18.0|20.0|24.0|27.0|28.0|28.0|29.0|28.0|25.0|2 4.0|23.0|26.0|28.0|28.0
-4.0| 2.0| 6.0| 9.0|13.0|16.0|18.0|20.0|24.0|27.0|28.0|28.0|29.0|28.0|25.0|2 4.0|23.0|26.0|28.0|28.0

Black LS1 T/A

It indeed appears, if you get detonation at higher rpms, you need to either

1. Increase your octane
2. Richen your a/f mixture in that rpm range OR
3. Reduce the timing.

Are there NO options for you guys to make this happen?

And initially, we had our fair share of blown engines. Our biggest problem seemed to be detonation killing stock engines or lifting the heads for those of us who tried to get more than 9 or 10 PSI out of the kit.

We have PROVEN this is bad tuning or exceeding the engine's capabilties to sustain the boost without taking measures to accomodate the power / boost increase... NOT the Procharger.

Black LS1 T/A

And do NOT... I repeat, do NOT continue to WOT your car if you hear audible knock. You will almost SURELY kill your engine.

This is not like N/A where you curse about pinging because you got some bad gas and the worst outcome is often that you just can't get power. Detonation is the Osama Bin Laden of the blown engine! Fix the detonation problem before you race your car!

f r e z N Y

Black,
I think there are few points here that you hit right on the head which are the principle gripes of many members here with ATI.
1. A/f – requires tuning
2. timing - requires tuning (which we have no option for from ATI)

Most understand that tuning is required to run efficiently and safely. The stance from ATI seems to be (and forgive my paraphrasing) "when properly installed, the kit is flawless.”. Taken directly from ATI’s website, “This supercharger system is a 100% complete bolt-on…” The impression that I have gotten from ATI, is that “tuning” doesn’t seem to be a necessity, as their kit is designed properly. If the kit is perfect, as is, or if it is simply a bolt on, then there should be no need for tuning, right? We all know that it is impossible to have a safe and efficient kit run flawlessly as a bolt on. For those who don’t, where is the information from ATI stating otherwise?

You see, I do not believe that ATI as a company cannot produce great products, and the LS1 community has seemingly adopted ATI as a reputable and reliable FI application manufacturer, but I do not feel as though they have given us 350z guys all the tools necessary to run FI safely, when they claim that they have.

GaryK

I think this whole "argument", if you will, is the result of differing expectations and different interpretations of the terminology used. I personally don't agree with everything you say here, but please don't take this as a personal attack...I'm trying to express an important concept here.

Just because a part or kit bolts on, you should not expect that tuning to your vehicle is not required. The kit in question can be called a bolt on modification, but that is not what's important here. By "bolting on" the kit, you are making a drastic change to the car...NA to FI is a big deal, especially when you consider the power gained with this kit. ATI does state that the car needs to be tuned after installing the kit. I don't have the manual handy, but I do know that there are several precautions mentioned in the manual relating to fuel pressure, a/f ratios, and tuning. You cannot expect any bolt on that increases power by this much to be a simple matter of a one size fits all tune.

As far as the timing issue, that is a gray area. If ATI had found problems that resulted from too much timing, they likely would have addressed this in the kit. We are now seeing that some guys are having problems due to the timing. However, there are a ton of variables...fuel octane, atmospheric conditions, other mods, fuel tuning, etc. These all have a big effect on the chances of detonation rearing its ugly head. But they can't control all these.

Rama

I was thinking about this last night I didn't catch it at first glance But the Ken guy said that they were aware of the timing issue but didnt put a timing retard box with the kit because they didn't think anyone would want it? HUH? Why would we want it without something that is vital especially when you know before hand that it could be an issue. It becomes very interesting to know however that the LS1 guys got timing retard with their kits. Is it me does it sound like ATI almost had a complete kit but they needed to be first on the block so they said F it or they just assumed it would be fine without it. I don't have one personally but I have read all 10,000 threads about this and the two things that keep being asked and/or mentioned is timing and A/F ratio's was there any mention of these things in their manual or on the website? Anything like this kit does not include timing retard you need to get your own or even advise timing retard? Does it come with any recommended A/F ratio's?

BLOBYU

GaryK

Nice

f r e z N Y

excellent contribution.

Rama

Um what? read this whole thread the LS1 guys are actually trying to help they seem to have some insight on ATI kits so let's see what they have to say I mean regardless if they aren't big fan's of vortech their are people that already have the ATI so let's see if we can get the ATI people help because this kit has been the hot topic for awhile now. let's get it taken care of.

BLOBYU

May I ask a simple question: why is Black LS1 T/A even on the board? Don't get me wrong, Everyone is welcome (obviously) but how is it that he's even interested in our 'stuff'....and staying interested. I wonder if he's been asked to do a favor for our friend Ken at ATI.

BLOBYU

He has got some great knowledge! I wish he worked at ATI - maybe they wouldn't have so many issues!

GaryK

Although the engines in our cars are different in many ways, they do have some similarity such as high compression. I think its good to have some LS1 guys offering another perspective on things.

I can understand his interest. Hell, I visit a lot of different automotive boards simply out of my interest in high performance cars in general. There is a lot to learn out there, and it doesn't all have to come from folks with the same car you drive. If these apparently knowledgeable guys with LS1 FI experience want to help out, why alienate them? I welcome him...he certainly seems to have some logical, realistic, and reasonable information to share.

BLOBYU

You got it! You're right! He has some great knowledge - You didn't read that? Who's casting him out?! I find it suspicious with regards to timing and subject matter. That's quite all! Jeeeez.