I've got a build or something *PICS*
07-21-2012, 10:15 PM
#81
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I'm not trying to say they are bad and you should stay away from using the oil pump, but wrapping out the rpms that high is what I wouldn't trust. Lets just say I was coming back from some spirited driving before it was parked and my redline is at 8.
07-22-2012, 08:15 AM
#82
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hmm, i'm just curious what part in there fails. I've taken apart both a DE and rev up and they are pretty simple units with very little to fail. I would just like to see the area that fails on them so I can be aware.
07-22-2012, 12:29 PM
#83
Lots of na vq's rev out 8k (maxima forums awear by he rev up pump) and the common factor in failed pumps is fi. Fi usually has odd places to return oil (upper pan would be the correct location not lower) and usually from what ive seen dont have proper ventillation in the heads with high crank-case pressure. I wonder if this is somehow related. Im fairly busy today but when i get a chance id like to figure out exactly how our pump works. I could see somethig like too much pressure or too little pressure pre/post pump at high rpms causing the gear to fail, similar to if you run a turbo without chargepiping.
Not too likely, but off the top of my head is a possibility this should just fail...
Interested in what you all think could cause failure.
Last edited by Resmarted; 07-22-2012 at 12:31 PM.
07-22-2012, 12:58 PM
#85
go-fast did some research on the DE oil pump including the rev-up and this is what he told me privately before he was permabanned...
He hadn't done any testing on the Nismo oil pump though.
it can make the pressure but can't deliver the volume,as soon as you get close to necessary volume it starts bypassing because of pressure,but that's not the worst......it's way too turbulent and starts aerating internally long before bypass.
07-22-2012, 01:16 PM
#86
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To me when someone says that they see a physical broken pump. Loss of volume causing starvation would definitely kill an engine but the pump should still be intact. The simple internals make me wonder how someone could break it just from driving. It's a gear that rotates and forces oil into a passageway. That gear was pretty large and looked fairly strong when I had them apart. This is why i'm having a hard time believing there was an actual mechanical failure verses just a simple starvation due to the pump not keeping up.
07-22-2012, 01:46 PM
#87
i could see the aeration causing the pump to fail, the pump itself needs the oil for lubrication as much as anything else, also i dont have a spare here but if volume is a issue it should be possibly to have the housing milled some to increase clearances then a even stronger spring installed to put the pressure back up. this is essentially hw they do the small block chevy pumps(slightly different but same idea since the pumps work differently.)
Last edited by jerryd87; 07-22-2012 at 02:21 PM.
07-22-2012, 04:18 PM
#88
I dont see aeration causing the gear to shatter like sp's did.
Like binder said, it's just a gear. I can see it seizing up but shattering...?
Those of you who have broken their pumps, do you have any pics or opened up your pump?
What go fast described sounds like the engine would be getting starved and the pump would just be inefficient, not causing pumps tonjust grenade
Like binder said, it's just a gear. I can see it seizing up but shattering...?
Those of you who have broken their pumps, do you have any pics or opened up your pump?
What go fast described sounds like the engine would be getting starved and the pump would just be inefficient, not causing pumps tonjust grenade
07-22-2012, 05:46 PM
#89
looking at pics from the maxima forums(i cant find pics from the SP cars oil pump) the gears are very close togeather. aeration very well could cause them to shatter since there would be no oil to soften the blow, instead it will become metal on metal contact which would not only increase chances of them shattering but also potentially cause harmonics that weaken the metal. the DE oil pump is made from "powdered" metal and isnt very strong, not sure what the rev up is made out of but weight difference indicates something, or the same thing but tempered differently to handle the abuse.
the only other thing i can think of would be distortion of the case itself allowing increased clearance which combined with aeration would further increase the hit metal on metal is taking as well as causing less teeth contact. i know in the old tremec t5 transmissions this was a huge problem that would cause the trans to grenade. if this is the case then simply milling the case for more volume would be a bad idea unless some way to stop aeration was implemented.
i know the ford mod motors use a similar design for their oil pump and has similar grenading problems, was found to be a combination of aeration and the weak powdered metal used, so they have them available with billet gears instead.
the one pic i found on maxima forums though show a cracked case which would lead me to believe possibly a distorted case allowed the teeth to chip. HOWEVER the one rev up failure i saw on the maxima forums was with lightweight under drive pulleys and a non balanced rotating assembly so its fully expected that it grenaded the balance is required for those rpms(8500) and if it wasnt the pump it would have been the bearings. my crank and flywheel both required HEAVY balancing , alot taken out of the JWT flywheel and the crank had both a significant amount taken out as well as several spots weighted with mallory. this is with pauter rods and wossner pistons. the rods might be heavier then most but my pistons are also a bit lighter.
also never saw this before but
http://www.importperformanceparts.ne...mpsnissan.html
if i would have known about those i would have gotten that in a heartbeat vs the revup me loves high volume pumps.
the only other thing i can think of would be distortion of the case itself allowing increased clearance which combined with aeration would further increase the hit metal on metal is taking as well as causing less teeth contact. i know in the old tremec t5 transmissions this was a huge problem that would cause the trans to grenade. if this is the case then simply milling the case for more volume would be a bad idea unless some way to stop aeration was implemented.
i know the ford mod motors use a similar design for their oil pump and has similar grenading problems, was found to be a combination of aeration and the weak powdered metal used, so they have them available with billet gears instead.
the one pic i found on maxima forums though show a cracked case which would lead me to believe possibly a distorted case allowed the teeth to chip. HOWEVER the one rev up failure i saw on the maxima forums was with lightweight under drive pulleys and a non balanced rotating assembly so its fully expected that it grenaded the balance is required for those rpms(8500) and if it wasnt the pump it would have been the bearings. my crank and flywheel both required HEAVY balancing , alot taken out of the JWT flywheel and the crank had both a significant amount taken out as well as several spots weighted with mallory. this is with pauter rods and wossner pistons. the rods might be heavier then most but my pistons are also a bit lighter.
also never saw this before but
http://www.importperformanceparts.ne...mpsnissan.html
if i would have known about those i would have gotten that in a heartbeat vs the revup me loves high volume pumps.
Last edited by jerryd87; 07-22-2012 at 05:59 PM.
07-22-2012, 06:47 PM
#90
07-22-2012, 07:48 PM
#91
that definitly looks like it was caused by aeration similar to what the mod motors see. if that was a issue of case deflection it would have simply chipped the teeth off. the case was undoubtedly broken by the gears coming apart, it contained it very well as well which further tells me it wasnt case deflection, take a look at the mod motors they dont contain the oil pump pieces hardly at all so i would say the cases are stronger in our case.(at least oem, the ford racing one appears to be much stronger)
otherwise the only way i could see that happening is harmonics, i highly doubt sp was running lightweight pulleys or a unbalanced rotating assembly so wont be that except mayby harmonics caused by metal on metal from aeration and cavitation.
obviously a thinker ring or better material will help stop that but it still wouldnt solve the problem more of just a bandaid, not sure how much of that is eliminated by a spacer and cosworth oil control kit. the oil control kit seemed like a good idea so i went with it. i imagine a rev up + billet machined gears would be far less then a nismo pump, or just have w/e pump you have rebuilt and have new billet gears machined.
for most cases the mod guys buy billet gears that flow more volume and dont have issues after that, might be a idea for me when i eventually end up putting cams in mine, get some billet gears made at the same time, mayby if carbon fiber parts goes well for me it ill just be able to buy a small hobby mill haha.
i would like to know what sp meant by widening the engagement area on there update where they say they microwelded the revup pump. possibly lowered the clearance inside the pump by giving it bigger teeth idk. sorry for the thread jacking lol, mayby the HR pump would be worthwhile being much thicker gears from what im reading should be simple retrofit, eliminate one locating dowel or elongate a hole for a much stronger gear.
otherwise the only way i could see that happening is harmonics, i highly doubt sp was running lightweight pulleys or a unbalanced rotating assembly so wont be that except mayby harmonics caused by metal on metal from aeration and cavitation.
obviously a thinker ring or better material will help stop that but it still wouldnt solve the problem more of just a bandaid, not sure how much of that is eliminated by a spacer and cosworth oil control kit. the oil control kit seemed like a good idea so i went with it. i imagine a rev up + billet machined gears would be far less then a nismo pump, or just have w/e pump you have rebuilt and have new billet gears machined.
for most cases the mod guys buy billet gears that flow more volume and dont have issues after that, might be a idea for me when i eventually end up putting cams in mine, get some billet gears made at the same time, mayby if carbon fiber parts goes well for me it ill just be able to buy a small hobby mill haha.
i would like to know what sp meant by widening the engagement area on there update where they say they microwelded the revup pump. possibly lowered the clearance inside the pump by giving it bigger teeth idk. sorry for the thread jacking lol, mayby the HR pump would be worthwhile being much thicker gears from what im reading should be simple retrofit, eliminate one locating dowel or elongate a hole for a much stronger gear.
Last edited by jerryd87; 07-22-2012 at 08:34 PM.
07-22-2012, 10:34 PM
#92
that definitly looks like it was caused by aeration similar to what the mod motors see. if that was a issue of case deflection it would have simply chipped the teeth off. the case was undoubtedly broken by the gears coming apart, it contained it very well as well which further tells me it wasnt case deflection, take a look at the mod motors they dont contain the oil pump pieces hardly at all so i would say the cases are stronger in our case.(at least oem, the ford racing one appears to be much stronger)
otherwise the only way i could see that happening is harmonics, i highly doubt sp was running lightweight pulleys or a unbalanced rotating assembly so wont be that except mayby harmonics caused by metal on metal from aeration and cavitation.
obviously a thinker ring or better material will help stop that but it still wouldnt solve the problem more of just a bandaid, not sure how much of that is eliminated by a spacer and cosworth oil control kit. the oil control kit seemed like a good idea so i went with it. i imagine a rev up + billet machined gears would be far less then a nismo pump, or just have w/e pump you have rebuilt and have new billet gears machined.
for most cases the mod guys buy billet gears that flow more volume and dont have issues after that, might be a idea for me when i eventually end up putting cams in mine, get some billet gears made at the same time, mayby if carbon fiber parts goes well for me it ill just be able to buy a small hobby mill haha.
i would like to know what sp meant by widening the engagement area on there update where they say they microwelded the revup pump. possibly lowered the clearance inside the pump by giving it bigger teeth idk. sorry for the thread jacking lol, mayby the HR pump would be worthwhile being much thicker gears from what im reading should be simple retrofit, eliminate one locating dowel or elongate a hole for a much stronger gear.
otherwise the only way i could see that happening is harmonics, i highly doubt sp was running lightweight pulleys or a unbalanced rotating assembly so wont be that except mayby harmonics caused by metal on metal from aeration and cavitation.
obviously a thinker ring or better material will help stop that but it still wouldnt solve the problem more of just a bandaid, not sure how much of that is eliminated by a spacer and cosworth oil control kit. the oil control kit seemed like a good idea so i went with it. i imagine a rev up + billet machined gears would be far less then a nismo pump, or just have w/e pump you have rebuilt and have new billet gears machined.
for most cases the mod guys buy billet gears that flow more volume and dont have issues after that, might be a idea for me when i eventually end up putting cams in mine, get some billet gears made at the same time, mayby if carbon fiber parts goes well for me it ill just be able to buy a small hobby mill haha.
i would like to know what sp meant by widening the engagement area on there update where they say they microwelded the revup pump. possibly lowered the clearance inside the pump by giving it bigger teeth idk. sorry for the thread jacking lol, mayby the HR pump would be worthwhile being much thicker gears from what im reading should be simple retrofit, eliminate one locating dowel or elongate a hole for a much stronger gear.
Back to the topic of aeration... Is it that the pump actually aerates the oil, or rather builds up an air pocket inside? I can understand the idea that the aerated oil causes a seizure but shattering the gear?
In four cylinders gears shatter typically from harmonics. Obviously the ATI damper should help, but the 60* v-6 is not a very harmonically sound design. And increasing the revolutions may be bringing out a secondary harmonic, which is why the pump is failing at high revolutions.
I honestly don't know anything about aeration + oil pump failures other than I'd imagine the heat and lack of oil would cause the pump to seize and then fail rather than... explode. I may be wrong about this and I really don't know much about this topic. Will look into it further to expand my understanding and if I find something of use to this discussion, will post.
EDIT:
If we take a look at basic number of stock main pulleys broken at high rpms, and factor in that the pump comes before the main pulley... wouldn't it make sense that the issue lies in a harmonic? Fluid dampers help a lot with harmonics, but they can't stop all of them....
EDIT2:
I really don't think it's aeration now that I think about this... Aeration would occur dependent only on rpm. If there are several NA cars running these big rpm without problems day in and day out it must be linked to power. What else is linked to power? Harmonics. The greater the power, the greater the amplification of harmonics in the engine. Now aeration may still occur but the pump may be able to over come this.
Last edited by Resmarted; 07-22-2012 at 10:42 PM.
07-22-2012, 10:36 PM
#93
It's advertised that the Nismo pump has steel gears, but don't know if it has the same basic design and aeration problem as the OEM DE pump.
http://mynismo.com/products/?id=2783
At least the HR and VHR oil pumps were designed to handle a stock redline of 7500RPM. Unless there is some definitive positive info out there on the Nismo DE pump, I'm thinking the HR pump is worth more consideration and investigation for those of us FI guys with high RPM endeavours.
http://mynismo.com/products/?id=2783
At least the HR and VHR oil pumps were designed to handle a stock redline of 7500RPM. Unless there is some definitive positive info out there on the Nismo DE pump, I'm thinking the HR pump is worth more consideration and investigation for those of us FI guys with high RPM endeavours.
07-22-2012, 10:46 PM
#94
I would agree that a bigger better pump is always worth it, especially when the cost is... nearly identical.
Check my last post, i've edited it since yours.
I see that the aeration/cavitation can cause vibrations as the air bubbles basically pop. Maybe it is aeration? I still believe that harmonics may still also be a culprit. Hard to say for sure without data
Check my last post, i've edited it since yours.
I see that the aeration/cavitation can cause vibrations as the air bubbles basically pop. Maybe it is aeration? I still believe that harmonics may still also be a culprit. Hard to say for sure without data
Last edited by Resmarted; 07-23-2012 at 12:18 AM.
That's news to me.
07-22-2012, 11:48 PM
#96
I honestly don't mind the thread jack. This community needs more technical discussions, and hands on approaches. We've been sitting in the passenger seat for far too long.
Back to the topic of aeration... Is it that the pump actually aerates the oil, or rather builds up an air pocket inside? I can understand the idea that the aerated oil causes a seizure but shattering the gear?
In four cylinders gears shatter typically from harmonics. Obviously the ATI damper should help, but the 60* v-6 is not a very harmonically sound design. And increasing the revolutions may be bringing out a secondary harmonic, which is why the pump is failing at high revolutions.
I honestly don't know anything about aeration + oil pump failures other than I'd imagine the heat and lack of oil would cause the pump to seize and then fail rather than... explode. I may be wrong about this and I really don't know much about this topic. Will look into it further to expand my understanding and if I find something of use to this discussion, will post.
EDIT:
If we take a look at basic number of stock main pulleys broken at high rpms, and factor in that the pump comes before the main pulley... wouldn't it make sense that the issue lies in a harmonic? Fluid dampers help a lot with harmonics, but they can't stop all of them....
EDIT2:
I really don't think it's aeration now that I think about this... Aeration would occur dependent only on rpm. If there are several NA cars running these big rpm without problems day in and day out it must be linked to power. What else is linked to power? Harmonics. The greater the power, the greater the amplification of harmonics in the engine. Now aeration may still occur but the pump may be able to over come this.
Back to the topic of aeration... Is it that the pump actually aerates the oil, or rather builds up an air pocket inside? I can understand the idea that the aerated oil causes a seizure but shattering the gear?
In four cylinders gears shatter typically from harmonics. Obviously the ATI damper should help, but the 60* v-6 is not a very harmonically sound design. And increasing the revolutions may be bringing out a secondary harmonic, which is why the pump is failing at high revolutions.
I honestly don't know anything about aeration + oil pump failures other than I'd imagine the heat and lack of oil would cause the pump to seize and then fail rather than... explode. I may be wrong about this and I really don't know much about this topic. Will look into it further to expand my understanding and if I find something of use to this discussion, will post.
EDIT:
If we take a look at basic number of stock main pulleys broken at high rpms, and factor in that the pump comes before the main pulley... wouldn't it make sense that the issue lies in a harmonic? Fluid dampers help a lot with harmonics, but they can't stop all of them....
EDIT2:
I really don't think it's aeration now that I think about this... Aeration would occur dependent only on rpm. If there are several NA cars running these big rpm without problems day in and day out it must be linked to power. What else is linked to power? Harmonics. The greater the power, the greater the amplification of harmonics in the engine. Now aeration may still occur but the pump may be able to over come this.
something else it very well could be is the pump IS trying to seize, the points where its breaking is the thin spots, very likely as well its trying to seize and the crank simply snaps it to pieces since there's no way that little thing is going to stop the crank.
mayby we should get someone to make billet internals*coughcoughhalyoulistening?coughcough* since this seems to be a solution for other platforms. not entirely sure though, because there are plenty who make alot of power without revving it high and havnt had exploded pumps. work with a guy who ran a gtm stage 5 turbo kit and claimed 800 to the wheels and 8k rpms with no issues before he sold it for a gtr(no idea if hes telling the truth or not but i know he keeps trying to sell me his old carillos and cp pistons), and isnt hal at around the same area but 8k5 rpm instead? or is he running a nismo pump?
not sure but mayby be worthwhile to try and get a shop to start making gears for our pumps, nearly every other platform that uses the same type of pump design has them, gotta be a reason. if nothing happens of that nature i might look at the hr pump w/e i do my cams the gear is most definitly bigger. till then im rpm limited just because of where my cams make power.
Last edited by jerryd87; 07-22-2012 at 11:51 PM.
07-23-2012, 12:29 AM
#98
im not really sure, i know this much though mod motors have a extra cylinder on each side and have the same problem, and from what ive heard(since i havnt really looked into it) the rb26 has a similar issue as well. not saying its not harmonics i know thats just the mod guys where saying aeration. its very likely it could be both as well, like i said before aeration could cause metal on metal which would create harmonics as well, it also very well could be power as well.
something else it very well could be is the pump IS trying to seize, the points where its breaking is the thin spots, very likely as well its trying to seize and the crank simply snaps it to pieces since there's no way that little thing is going to stop the crank.
mayby we should get someone to make billet internals*coughcoughhalyoulistening?coughcough* since this seems to be a solution for other platforms. not entirely sure though, because there are plenty who make alot of power without revving it high and havnt had exploded pumps. work with a guy who ran a gtm stage 5 turbo kit and claimed 800 to the wheels and 8k rpms with no issues before he sold it for a gtr(no idea if hes telling the truth or not but i know he keeps trying to sell me his old carillos and cp pistons), and isnt hal at around the same area but 8k5 rpm instead? or is he running a nismo pump?
not sure but mayby be worthwhile to try and get a shop to start making gears for our pumps, nearly every other platform that uses the same type of pump design has them, gotta be a reason. if nothing happens of that nature i might look at the hr pump w/e i do my cams the gear is most definitly bigger. till then im rpm limited just because of where my cams make power.
something else it very well could be is the pump IS trying to seize, the points where its breaking is the thin spots, very likely as well its trying to seize and the crank simply snaps it to pieces since there's no way that little thing is going to stop the crank.
mayby we should get someone to make billet internals*coughcoughhalyoulistening?coughcough* since this seems to be a solution for other platforms. not entirely sure though, because there are plenty who make alot of power without revving it high and havnt had exploded pumps. work with a guy who ran a gtm stage 5 turbo kit and claimed 800 to the wheels and 8k rpms with no issues before he sold it for a gtr(no idea if hes telling the truth or not but i know he keeps trying to sell me his old carillos and cp pistons), and isnt hal at around the same area but 8k5 rpm instead? or is he running a nismo pump?
not sure but mayby be worthwhile to try and get a shop to start making gears for our pumps, nearly every other platform that uses the same type of pump design has them, gotta be a reason. if nothing happens of that nature i might look at the hr pump w/e i do my cams the gear is most definitly bigger. till then im rpm limited just because of where my cams make power.
RB26's use the same nismo oil pump, but for some reason the vq isn't rated as high... Which leads me back to the idea that it's again harmonics.
Also it would make sense if SP's car broke theirs SOONER than most others (when applying the harmonics idea) because they ran quite a lot of power (again more power=more violent harmonics).
I was also thinking about the novelty of billet gears, but I think someone needs to figure out what precisely is causing the pumps to fail first. A billet gear may be stronger, and more resistant or less prone to aeration, but if the problem lies in harmonics it could still fail. We could get ATI to make a bigger or re designed damper, but if it's aeration we'll still ruin pumps (you know what I mean lol).
I really wish I could digitally simulate the vq35 and it's auxiliary devices just to test theories in solid works or the such, but I'm not at that level yet.
07-23-2012, 09:27 AM
#100
The pumps do break because of harmonics/shock/whatever you want to call it.
If you look at failed pumps 99.9% of the time the crack starts in the corners where the inner mating area has been keyed(flattened out) to the crank. More stresss is put on these two spots(4 total) then any other area. If you bounce of the rev limiter a lot you get a jack hammer effect on all four corners making it more likely to crack.
The DE nismo pump has stronger gears and some contouring in these key areas to help with stress cracks. Other then that it is identical to a normal revup pump. I have a Nismo pump in my car now but did not get a chance to compare it to a HR pump. I have detailed pictures of what im talking about on my home desktop.
If you look at failed pumps 99.9% of the time the crack starts in the corners where the inner mating area has been keyed(flattened out) to the crank. More stresss is put on these two spots(4 total) then any other area. If you bounce of the rev limiter a lot you get a jack hammer effect on all four corners making it more likely to crack.
The DE nismo pump has stronger gears and some contouring in these key areas to help with stress cracks. Other then that it is identical to a normal revup pump. I have a Nismo pump in my car now but did not get a chance to compare it to a HR pump. I have detailed pictures of what im talking about on my home desktop.