Mofab

Hey guy's Scotty Here From Mofab llc. Our customer's car 60k odo 30k on block (see mofab llc int the shop builds section) Has developed some issues. Our Shop does not assemble lower rotating assembly I leave that to the experts. (We stick to Developing Forced induction design) I do however assemble engines from the short block up. Our customers car came to us after being passed around some local shops in the Colorado area. The engine seemed solid. as it had been boosted for quite some time, Cp 8.5:1 manley rods not sure on bearings ARP Studs. After our new turbo setup GTX35 and bigger power E85 17psi 600whp 630tq on a dynojet. The car ran great but would get hot. Seemed to get worse, After a coolant test w high carbon, we decided to pull the heads for fear of a head gasket failure, Which was evident by the bubbles coming out of the coolant burping bottle. Upon further investigation the timing chain was almost completely wasted because one of the tensionors seized in full out position stretching the chain and wore all plastic guides through. Missing o rings for oil control of the cam phasing and wrong bolts placed here and there. Basically total loss was emanate if we hadn't tore her down. The machine shop told us the heads were warped. I also noted that the piston rings looked like they were gaped loosely, and the piston to wall clearance seemed large. I told the customer we should do a complete tear down and inspect the block for cracked sleeves/ or warped deck. He didn't want to.......of course i told him that was a bad idea but none the less we reassembled.
After we got the heads back w fresh valve job we did the following.
Completely new timing components and water pump.
Cosworth head gaskets
New Gaskets where applicable
Of course after the the car was put together she ran better than before but obviously with the tighter top end and loose bottom she consummed oil. No smoke tho.

I knew the car would use oil and made it evident to the customer again before we went together this needed to be done but again he told me to reassemble.

The real problem were having is the car still runs hot. We've tried everything. It doesn't push coolant at idle. or under load but does get hot. so hot that after a drive when u park it it boils over. I checked the block w a straight edge and didn't see any warpage while we were in there.
So now after all this the customer wants to tear it back down Buy a new short block and basically start all over. Im so frustrated with the car. I know there's a right way to do things and that would have been to tear it all down but again the customer didn't want to. I don't like taking peoples money twice for the same job but the customers always right.

This is what were doing now, and below is what we already have done.

New short block
New gaskets ect.
Possibly a smaller A/C Condenser
New Head Studs
What gaskets for the head?

Here's what the car currently has E85
Built block cp's manley ARP
Nismo cams
Fresh Heads/Valve Job
Coswoth head gaskets>>>>>>Are These BAD?
Koyo Radiator W Mishimoto fans But One Is upgraded to a 14"
Mofab llc GTX35R w FMIC 24X3x12 core Turbo sits by drivers headlight
3" Exhaust
Everything i mean everything is wrapped for heat protection EVERYTHING
Stock hood
Stock Bumper
No aftermarket oil cooler

Compression 90 first puff 115 across the board. on old engine

Here's what i think The block is either warped and my straight edge test wasn't enough to catch it or there is a hairline crack in a stock sleeve?
Whats the limit of an un sleeved block Wheel Horse Power/ Boost.
The customer now wants to do away with his built lower end and buy a new off the shelf short block from a z engine builder, I say we have his block checked (assuming you can do that? as in guarantee that there aren't any cracks, Have it decked/ honed, toss in some new pistons ( i want his compression bumped back up) and bearings and save him some money. Obviously were trying to solve two issues now. The customer wants 600whp reliable E85 by the way, No cooling issues, Wants to keep his A/C and run it on hot days w out overheating while just driving normally.
WHAT DO I DOOOOOOOO

Im Asking you all cause your the experts

Scotty
Mofab llc

kacz07

iTrader: (15)

IPP does good work.

bmccann101

iTrader: (16)

among all other things has he installed the pathfinder rear coolant bypass mod?

you are SURE there is no air in the system as its very prone to it.. oil coolers?
When you say runs hot, what is hot? And when does it do this ?

djamps

iTrader: (1)

Sleeves or no? If not, there has got to be air in the system. Either residual or pushed in. These engines are a straight PITA to purge.

midz350

iTrader: (4)

IPP, FP, GTM, IP... They all make good engines. But you can only have two VQ + reliable + FI.


GL.

350zion

iTrader: (58)

Dynosty assembled short block, Dynosty stopper head gasket, bleed bleed bleed.....


Good luck!

jerryd87

iTrader: (4)

ill knock on wood here but i wouldnt say that. i only have minor issues from my car some of the **** ive pulled over and fixed right there in like 2 minutes no major reliability issues and i have more miles then alot of people who blew engines, im almost to 4k miles on my engine now you just have to build it right which im still a firm believer that those who popped engines, the engine builder dint build it right and tried to use stock clearances on a high output engine. i beat the **** outa my engine and am not the least bit worried about it popping.

i also wouldnt be worried if i took it to dynosty and had it done.

rcdash

iTrader: (18)

With a Koyo radiator it should not be boiling coolant just driving around. I'd guess air is still in the system or the thermostat isn't working (or you still have a headgasket issue). Sounds like you suspect the headgasket isn't going to seal. Many have had luck with an HKS headgasket and L19 bolts. Not sure about the Cosworth... Best to talk to a leading VQ engine builder (e.g. Dynosty).

Resmarted

iTrader: (2)

Agreed.

I've heard bad things about forged, gtm, and IPP seems to be popping up more often with lower end issues. GTM I don't trust, for many reasons, and forged well that's a bit longer of a story including customer service I found unsatisfactory regarding renting an un-useable torque plate among other things I won't specify because it involves other people's cars on this board.

I would only spend money with Dynosty, SP racing, Vinny Ten, or Mazworx at this point, and frankly I pretty much only have.

The guys making bigger power on here all use one of those shops. Theyve proven themselves (arguably mazworx less than the rest, but all the others have the fastest z's on the planet with plenty of proof on customers cars).

I did most of my build purchasing with dynosty per a recommendation from a user on here, and I haven't regretted anything. They've told me a ton, answered a lot of questions and I give them the highest of regards with quality, knowledge and experience.

PS, I have an 04 stock shortblock sitting in my garage. 44k miles, great motor. Needs to be cleaned (just for piece of mind, been in a GARAGE ffs) possibly decked, but otherwise 0 issues. If your customer wants a good stock spec engine for cheap, I'm not asking much, and I can say it was not beat on, had an automatic, full services done etc. Pulled it out to build my car, didn't ship my oemer to dynosty to be machined, ended up buying a core from them long story short.

Anyway good luck.

Mofab

I know all about the issues with bleeding the cooling system, trust me we got all the air out. As far as stock sleeves go, whats there limit, Whats the chances of a micro fracture in one, Im thinking she just needs to be decked, but i want to be sure. I really dont want to tear out this motor and give it to someone as a core. Its allready built and makes great power. I appriciate the help tho. Thanks alot. I know all about SP but Dynasty is new to me. i guess we will do some more research.....
Scott.

Boosted Performance

iTrader: (14)

The guys at Dynosty are great to deal with, and you won't be dissapointed if you decide to get them to build the engine.

I have a few customers with Dynosty built engines, and they are all happy making great power for a while now.

jerryd87

iTrader: (4)

too few people run stock sleeves with massive power so its still unknown, what we do know is hal from dynosty has been over 700 to the wheels on stock sleeves for awhile now. also its known that they are thick as **** stock and made out of the same material as dartons sleeves, they arnt as thick but pretty close i would have to relook it up but iirc they are around a quarter inch thick stock

Resmarted

iTrader: (2)

I could measure walls at home next time I stop by, but what do you mean "made out of the same material as dartons sleeves"?
FWIW, hals car is making 800whp (on a low reading DD) now from what I heard.

There were cars running 900whp+ on stock sleeves, the one that was rumored to have cracked a sleeve never actually did.

Str8dum1 made 898whp on stock sleeves. Funny thing is both hal and str8dum were running eagle rods. Str8s car broke rods not block.

EDIT:
So theoretically there is no 'limit' to the factory sleeves. The vq doesn't seem to have the same issues that the ej blocks have where the heads cause the open deck to crack, but the open deck seems to be the main issue to be concerned about. I don't think a block guard would actually help, but I did think about doing a half block fill, upper half only and having the machine shop then machine the block to convert the block to a close deck style, but I eventually gave up on the idea, seeing as I would reach my rod limits before then.

jerryd87

iTrader: (4)

both are made of solid ductile iron, vs the standard type of cast iron used in most oem cylinders. the benefit darton has is being a bit thicker at 3/8ths a inch thick, the support they have might be a benefit as well but not 100% sure of that since no one really knows if the stock sleeves actually do shift under high power its just conjecture.

the benefit of the ductile iron is it flexs a bit vs standard cast iron similar to why you go for forged pistons instead of hyper-eutectic(the hypers actually have higher strength but they shatter not flex so the tune has to be perfect, forged flexs some and can absorb a bit of det and pre ignition.)

Resmarted

iTrader: (2)

Oh I see. I did not know that the oem sleeves weren't cast. Good to know!

johnwigs

this thread is useless...
1. mentioning of pathfinder (coolant bypass mod) actionable offense should be 3 canes from cane master!!!! the pathfinder uses the extra thermostat in the back to keep the coolant in the engine longer for the engine to warm up faster to light off catalyst, not a performance mod unless you are wanting your engine to get hot faster???
2. bleeding the coolant system??? what is this the 1800s? catch up with the times and use an air lift and remove all the air then your cooling system is air free
3. boiling coolant... HELLO!!! USE EVANS!!!! it can't boil
4. Vinny Ten as a great engine builder??? yeah if you want your parts sourced from used engines and NAPA then go right on and take that step
5. Head studs... stock HR head bolts work great... and don't require having to retorque in 1000 miles, or engine replacment for when the head or deck warps due to heat expansion differences....
6. The John is tired now... time to rest, Vote Ron Paul!!!! lol

jerryd87

iTrader: (4)

1) you need to not even speak about engines guess what the thermostats open at the same tempature hot coolants dosnt stay in any longer your a idiot. what it DOES do is allow fresh coolant to flow to the rear of the engine block so you have more even coolant temp vs much hotter in the rear vs the front. thats why the pathfinder has it and only the pathfinder, because they expected higher temps from towing long distances

2)or how about drill a 1/8th hole in the thermostat(or if you have nismo/mishimoto remove the little plunger) so coolant can constantly flow a little and air dosnt get trapped. your air lift system is a over priced piece of junk to convince gullable people into buying complex items for a simple problem.

3) congrats your retarded evans might have a higher boiling point but yes it can boil, boiling coolant happens from air in the system even with evans it WILL happen. im running 15% antifreeze, 5% water wetter(if you really dont think it works your retarded everyone who has tried it has had it work it lowers surface tension while retaining the ability to transfer heat like water just need some antifreeze for anti corrosion) and 80% water, guess what? my coolant dosnt boil even on 85 degees every day of the year, high power 550+ hp runs or sitting in traffic it dosnt even really budge above 180.

4) ill admit i wont use VTR simply due to his price and i know i can build it reliable for much cheaper and never worry but his reputation speaks for itself and they dont have failed engines reported anywhere.

5) you obviously have never had anything boosted, arp2000 is stronger strengths then hr and guess what? those where failing and reported failings hence the l19, i dont have warped heads nor do hundreds of others dont know anyone who retorques them either i even heat cycled me engine getting it to 180 degrees with heat guns and dint budge on the triple check your ****ing stupid.

im seriously unsure if your trolling or really just that stupid because obviously you have no intention to ever build anything with any real power because following your recommendation its guaranteed to fail. that or you pay someone to do it then pretend like that means you know what your talking about which any of the people on here who actually work on there **** can tell your full of it.

ohhhhhh ok now i see i remember someone mentioning your shop before and talking about how great you where and then looking you up you just recently opened a legitimate business and attempted to pass **** off like you where the first doing it despite other shops doing the same thing for years...............yup nm everything is now explained. how may times did you manage to build a engine for dai and it blow? ive heard anywhere from 1 to 4 but know for sure at least one engine you built for him blew, rather early iirc too.

Resmarted

iTrader: (2)

Im interested in hearing what makes you say VT is a bad engine builder. They've been making records in the import world for quite a while now, and that's a bold claim.

5 tty bolts are **** compared to studs. Given even the same material, studs are inherently stronger and provide more accurate torque readings. In fact, rarely anyone ever retorques their l19s. And guess what? Some of those very people are making 1000hp, sometimes more.

The vtr statement i'd like to hear more about. But the HR studs claim is so far out the *** BS that it's astonishing.

Oh and jerry, I checked out my block earlier, the cylinder wall looks to be about 5/16" thick. That's what my friend and I were guesstimating with a random ruler. Then we got distracted. Turns out setting big old black widows on fire with wd40 IS as fun as it sounds.

johnwigs

If the coolant by-pass mod is sooo good as you say... then why is it not used anymore? its not on the Z or on the flagship GTR? it must work too good right, and the extra thermstat is attached to the coolant OUTLET, how does that allow cold coolant into the block?...

look at Vinny Ten's website for pricing "additional cost for OE compenents" and his pricing is astronomical for mediocore builds even uses orange silicone on exhaust manifold gaskets, and I didn't say "bad" just not a good choice

You can argue head stud arguement all day long, but everyone should know that cast aluminum and steel expand at different rates when heated... the TTY bolts compensate for such differences. Head studs do not do this and something has to give

Dai's gymkhana car has the same engine in it... well technicly not "in" it it is out for building new front end, but the engine still runs, and HR is being built with a custom TT setup, engines that blew up were all stock engines with 650HP being ran through them... we can all agree that those engines were not expected to last long, the built one has

jerryd87

iTrader: (4)

yah i knew it was thick as **** i just couldnt remember exactly what it was i think the only other stock engine that is close to that(actually a little better) is the GM 5.3L iron truck blocks.

jon wigs 1) the gtr is a completely different engine with different cooling paths so that comparision is stupid.
2) what z was designed with the intention of towing trailers for long periods of time? exactly none of them the additional coolant was provided to handle the additional heat generated by the constant load of towing.
3) not sure how you dont know your own customer since the engine you built(and is even displayed on your FB page is his formula D 350z, his gymkhana car is a S chasis with a ls2 last i heard his car with your built engine blew after 3 events(the z)

can see your not going to win many customers on here because you obviously have little knowledge of actual high performance. tty bolts are bad BECAUSE they stretch, the arp's stretch as well but not nearly as much, which means that when the metal expands when hot the heads are going to try and expand into each other and increase clamping force. your not going to convince ANYONE that that is a good bolt for high power builds since people have had failures with studs that are STRONGER.

its like testing body armor an it failing to stop a bullet then saying "eh use half the thickness its good enough", sure if you like wasting money and accomplishing nothing.