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^I think I 'edited' your post accidentally?!?!?!? I hit the wrong button! all apologies!
Originally Posted by Tran251
Good to see you’re able to enjoy driving it again. Looks like it’s pulling pretty hard!
do you notice a difference with the flat floors?
to be honest - I can't tell ... I think from a principle standpoint it runs better as I'm not creating a mass amount of turbulent air under the car.
The car doesnt liven up until 40mph+ I think mostly bc I have no boost control strategy and I have no timing in the tune...
There are like a million 'mini-tasks' that I need to get done
water methanol
anti-lag (if I run it)
launch control
a tune
front bumper
some more weight reduction
and I want to install sliding potentiometers on the car and data log how the car does at differing speeds ... get a baseline with no flat-floor and then run the flatfloor and even mess with the rear portion and see how it changes ... poor-man's wind-tunnel I guess.
Other than a little trouble shooting on my fuel pump I havent done anything with the car.
In Unknown_Performance shop were wrapping up our third rear-mount turbo kit for a pretty relaxed guy on the east coast, a guy here locally wants us to modify a stillen/vortech supercharger (really just the IC & piping) from a 370z to his Q50. He's got a sexy Q50 that keeps getting stepped on and would like to get around the 350ft-lb mark and we got two other interested guys with G35 chassis that want kits (one has already paid, the other is waiting).
^I think I 'edited' your post accidentally?!?!?!? I hit the wrong button! all apologies!
to be honest - I can't tell ... I think from a principle standpoint it runs better as I'm not creating a mass amount of turbulent air under the car.
The car doesnt liven up until 40mph+ I think mostly bc I have no boost control strategy and I have no timing in the tune...
There are like a million 'mini-tasks' that I need to get done
water methanol
anti-lag (if I run it)
launch control
a tune
front bumper
some more weight reduction
and I want to install sliding potentiometers on the car and data log how the car does at differing speeds ... get a baseline with no flat-floor and then run the flatfloor and even mess with the rear portion and see how it changes ... poor-man's wind-tunnel I guess.
Other than a little trouble shooting on my fuel pump I havent done anything with the car.
In Unknown_Performance shop were wrapping up our third rear-mount turbo kit for a pretty relaxed guy on the east coast, a guy here locally wants us to modify a stillen/vortech supercharger (really just the IC & piping) from a 370z to his Q50. He's got a sexy Q50 that keeps getting stepped on and would like to get around the 350ft-lb mark and we got two other interested guys with G35 chassis that want kits (one has already paid, the other is waiting).
May I suggest an HKS EVC 6 for your boost control? jk jk. Sweet build btw! I have some good friends in CO will have to stop by your shop one day when Im in town.
Ever considered a small shot for the lower end of the boost spectrum? Love the sound btw, sounds amazing compared to those shoddy NA tomei/straight pipers.
Oh yea - I definitely would and some guys are using C02 shots to spool-up quicker. I think the Link can handle that. I need to get other things ironed out first. I'm not too wildly concerned about building boost. I think it's mostly in the ignition timing and the boost control solenoid.
I had the car out last night and I put some duty cycle in the BCS and I was making boost much more efficiently and quicker. I'd definitely consider it!
I had the car out last night with my buddy who has the blue Z and a guy wanted to come shoot our cars for his photo business so we all met up.
From a mechanical side, the car ran fine - the boost was a little more present as I messed with the BCS and I activated the water methanol. It really only sprayed two or three times on the way home. It was dark - I didn't have my radar detector and there are deer on the main road home so I didn't get too crazy with the car.I had a quick conversation with Conway the other day and was throwing around the idea of would WMI perform better if it was cold? could you fill the WMI tank with ice to cool the WMI solution down to ~40degrees? would that further help decrease IATs? It would obviously mess with the water:methanol ratio if you were looking for a 50:50 mix? The experiment goes on and I started looking for longer cylindrical ice molds and a 2.25" aluminum IC pipe, about 4.5" long will work. So I filled it with water and put it in the freezer. My next attempt with be adding some methanol to the water mixture that I freeze. But here's prototype #1: I don't know that this will yield ground-breaking results, especially for the trouble / hassle / effort put in. It may be more efficient to fill the tank (and my tank is 1 quart) with 20% water, 40% ice and 40% methanol and know that the 40% ice will only be good for that single pass.
I don't know how dry-ice would fair? That's alittle bit more trouble with added cost and hassle.
Oh yea - I definitely would and some guys are using C02 shots to spool-up quicker. I think the Link can handle that. I need to get other things ironed out first. I'm not too wildly concerned about building boost. I think it's mostly in the ignition timing and the boost control solenoid.
I had the car out last night and I put some duty cycle in the BCS and I was making boost much more efficiently and quicker. I'd definitely consider it!
I had the car out last night with my buddy who has the blue Z and a guy wanted to come shoot our cars for his photo business so we all met up.
From a mechanical side, the car ran fine - the boost was a little more present as I messed with the BCS and I activated the water methanol. It really only sprayed two or three times on the way home. It was dark - I didn't have my radar detector and there are deer on the main road home so I didn't get too crazy with the car.I had a quick conversation with Conway the other day and was throwing around the idea of would WMI perform better if it was cold? could you fill the WMI tank with ice to cool the WMI solution down to ~40degrees? would that further help decrease IATs? It would obviously mess with the water:methanol ratio if you were looking for a 50:50 mix? The experiment goes on and I started looking for longer cylindrical ice molds and a 2.25" aluminum IC pipe, about 4.5" long will work. So I filled it with water and put it in the freezer. My next attempt with be adding some methanol to the water mixture that I freeze. But here's prototype #1: I don't know that this will yield ground-breaking results, especially for the trouble / hassle / effort put in. It may be more efficient to fill the tank (and my tank is 1 quart) with 20% water, 40% ice and 40% methanol and know that the 40% ice will only be good for that single pass.
I don't know how dry-ice would fair? That's alittle bit more trouble with added cost and hassle.
here are some pics from last night...
Nice, don't forget the density of ice changes when water turns to a solid.
Oh yea - I definitely would and some guys are using C02 shots to spool-up quicker. I think the Link can handle that. I need to get other things ironed out first. I'm not too wildly concerned about building boost. I think it's mostly in the ignition timing and the boost control solenoid.
I had the car out last night and I put some duty cycle in the BCS and I was making boost much more efficiently and quicker. I'd definitely consider it!
I had the car out last night with my buddy who has the blue Z and a guy wanted to come shoot our cars for his photo business so we all met up.
From a mechanical side, the car ran fine - the boost was a little more present as I messed with the BCS and I activated the water methanol. It really only sprayed two or three times on the way home. It was dark - I didn't have my radar detector and there are deer on the main road home so I didn't get too crazy with the car.I had a quick conversation with Conway the other day and was throwing around the idea of would WMI perform better if it was cold? could you fill the WMI tank with ice to cool the WMI solution down to ~40degrees? would that further help decrease IATs? It would obviously mess with the water:methanol ratio if you were looking for a 50:50 mix? The experiment goes on and I started looking for longer cylindrical ice molds and a 2.25" aluminum IC pipe, about 4.5" long will work. So I filled it with water and put it in the freezer. My next attempt with be adding some methanol to the water mixture that I freeze. But here's prototype #1: I don't know that this will yield ground-breaking results, especially for the trouble / hassle / effort put in. It may be more efficient to fill the tank (and my tank is 1 quart) with 20% water, 40% ice and 40% methanol and know that the 40% ice will only be good for that single pass.
It will help... A tiny bit.
The VAST majority of the temperature pulled out from WMI is due the the phase change. I.e. the WM going from a liquid to a gas. Using just methanol as an example, it takes 81 J per mol per degree Celsius. Rough math assuming 1mol shows that freezing it would add 2.43 KJ of heat rejection. The phase change is 37.3 KJ of heat rejection per mol. So with the effort of freezing it you would see around a 6% increase in heat rejection.
What was your reasoning for putting your WMI pre turbo instead of into the exit tank of the intercooler?
From my understanding, WMI also has quite a bit of detonation prevention that is not directly due to the decrease in charge temp, but more due to the suspended vapor controlling the chamber temperature and how the flame moves in the chamber. I don't know as much about that.
Last edited by GreyZ; Jun 29, 2020 at 05:40 AM.
Reason: Added some more info.
Nice, don't forget the density of ice changes when water turns to a solid. Safe to assume you're freezing distilled water?
I'm trying not to get too locked up in the math & science of it ... I dont mind doing 50% water and 50% meth and dropping that ice cube in there ... obviously when the ice melts complete I could be at 70% water and 30% meth but it's all good. The intake air temp sensor (although analog & slow) will pick up on the lower intake air temps sufficient for my use. I want WMI for the lower intake temps and the cleaning not necessarily the octane boost.
Originally Posted by GreyZ
It will help... A tiny bit.
The VAST majority of the temperature pulled out from WMI is due the the phase change. I.e. the WM going from a liquid to a gas. Using just methanol as an example, it takes 81 J per mol per degree Celsius. Rough math assuming 1mol shows that freezing it would add 2.43 KJ of heat rejection. The phase change is 37.3 KJ of heat rejection per mol. So with the effort of freezing it you would see around a 6% increase in heat rejection.
What was your reasoning for putting your WMI pre turbo instead of into the exit tank of the intercooler?
From my understanding, WMI also has quite a bit of detonation prevention that is not directly due to the decrease in charge temp, but more due to the suspended vapor controlling the chamber temperature and how the flame moves in the chamber. I don't know as much about that.
Thanks Grey for taking the time to explain this in this manner - some good points and healthy science behind it. To me its essentially free power. It doesnt take much to drop a ice-core in the WM tank.
I actually have three WMI ports - pre-turbo to take heat off off the turbo, post turbo and post intercooler to start the atomization as early as possible. All three nozzles are AEM's 250cc - so it's not a ton of WMI at each port and I would hope that by the time it reaches the IAT sensor it has had time to atomize with the charge air.
From what I've understand the WM + air + fuel charge has a lower overall temp that is 'that much further away' from the pre-detonation temp.
Originally Posted by 0taku
I always figured that the intake manifold would be the most efficient way to take advantage of the WMI system.
I dont disagree with you on premise that there's more than one way to skin a cat ... I think running WMI pre-IAT sensor is best as the IAT sensor has a chance to adjust based on actual air temps that are entering the engine. I also think the sooner you can inject WM the more time it has to completely atomize into the charge.
running it post-IAT/MAF it has less time and you're putting a cooler air charge in the cylinder than what the ECU thinks is going in. Which would be better than the opposite but it's inconsistent (sometime you have charge air at the same temp as determined by the IAT sensor and sometimes you have lower charge temp than what has been determined by the IAT)
Thanks Grey for taking the time to explain this in this manner - some good points and healthy science behind it. To me its essentially free power. It doesnt take much to drop a ice-core in the WM tank.
I actually have three WMI ports - pre-turbo to take heat off off the turbo, post turbo and post intercooler to start the atomization as early as possible. All three nozzles are AEM's 250cc - so it's not a ton of WMI at each port and I would hope that by the time it reaches the IAT sensor it has had time to atomize with the charge air.
From what I've understand the WM + air + fuel charge has a lower overall temp that is 'that much further away' from the pre-detonation temp.
No problem, I didn't know the actual numbers until I did the math, so learn some myself also. I am sure that you have read quite a bit about injection placement, but I believe that the preturbo placement can do some very wird stuff to the compressor map, basically making it behave like a much larger turbo because the air is substantially more dense with suspended WM vapor. It will be interesting if you can actually tell a difference. I would also suggest that you always make sure to run the car for a while after a heavy spray. You do not want to leave damp methanol in a hot intercooler, or any aluminum really.
The other comment is that from my understanding the Methanol part of WMI is what drives most of the temperature drop because of the evaporation, but the water part typically stays as a vapor in the chamber to help with detonation. So the meth helps with preignition and the water helps with detonation because it slows the flame front.
I believe that the preturbo placement can do some very wird stuff to the compressor map, basically making it behave like a much larger turbo because the air is substantially more dense with suspended WM vapor. It will be interesting if you can actually tell a difference. I would also suggest that you always make sure to run the car for a while after a heavy spray. You do not want to leave damp methanol in a hot intercooler, or any aluminum really.
The other comment is that from my understanding the Methanol part of WMI is what drives most of the temperature drop because of the evaporation, but the water part typically stays as a vapor in the chamber to help with detonation. So the meth helps with preignition and the water helps with detonation because it slows the flame front.
It's a good observation. The 250cc nozzles are pretty small. My gut-feeling is that it the WMI wont have enough time to fully atomize in the 6" before it hits the turbo.
I don't think I'll be able to tell a difference tbh, I think I'm more going off how WMI acts in a vacuum/on paper and trying to improve the system on principle. Without a very accurate dyno and the ability to eliminate most/all variables??? I don't know if there is solid way of determining the net effect??
Yea - the system is setup to spray after 0psi so anything in vacuum the system off.
Originally Posted by GreyZ
The other comment is that from my understanding the Methanol part of WMI is what drives most of the temperature drop because of the evaporation, but the water part typically stays as a vapor in the chamber to help with detonation. So the meth helps with preignition and the water helps with detonation because it slows the flame front.
elaborate on this … I don't disagree with you. If the methanol decreases cylinder temps that will drive-down the chances of pre-ignition. Methanol does act as a fuel and wouldn't that assist with decreasing the chance of detonation?
Bealljk, I'm looking for where I read it, but it is not recommend to place the nozzle before centrifugal or turbo's. The impeller spins to fast and with the water hitting the blades can cause pitting on the blades leading to failure. It takes very high pressure and very very small droplets to not damage compressor wheel.
If it is also not recommend to do pre-intercooler. There are chances the water can pool up inside the intercooler defeating the purpose of the WMI.
Bealljk, I'm looking for where I read it, but it is not recommend to place the nozzle before centrifugal or turbo's. The impeller spins to fast and with the water hitting the blades can cause pitting on the blades leading to failure. It takes very high pressure and very very small droplets to not damage compressor wheel.
If it is also not recommend to do pre-intercooler. There are chances the water can pool up inside the intercooler defeating the purpose of the WMI.
Everyone here is killing! Thanks for crapping on alllllll my points!
Im gonna try it at some point in time and I'll inspect my impeller wheel for damage. I did it on the greddy twins and it didn't do anything bad. The nozzle I intended to use isn't working right - the backflow valve isn't sealing so it drip-leaks … so I wont be running that until I can get a functioning nozzle.
Yea, being in Colorado I think it would evaporate out before it did damage.
Got the car to the track yesterday and it was huge let-down, straight up disappointment … nothing broke but the car ran very very slow...
embarrassing slow, like paper bag of your head slow, like 92mph @16seconds slow … sucked... only took two passes the entire night.
I will probably abandon freezing WM as it's just too big of a pain in the bummmm. But I did get a few squirts of WMI and I'm not sure if it did anything.
So if there is a silver lining to the night it was on my first pass I did 17psi of boost and nothing exploded!! Subsequently, I got boost control dialed in a bit down to 14psi. Also, had a .049 RT on my first pass (likely dumb luck)
We got some stickers printed up from a buddy were doing a turbo kit for.
And our buddy Tyler (Tyler Bonn Photography) got some nice shots of our cars. Here are some of his shots:
ignition timing ... were you on that thread a little while back where we were discussing horsepower and torque and I said that ignition timing makes power and a handful of people said boost makes power ... nope, had plenty of boost!! Ign timing all day long!
I'm using a mix of an HPA starter map and my 477hp tune ign timing values ... compared to my 568hp on 17psi I'm between 4 degrees and 8 degrees retarded.
I just need to go retune (simply put) ... plenty of test miles on the car, plenty of hard pulls, plenty of heat cycles, pushed plenty of boost on the engine, ran the engine well out of my comfort range.
Time to sack-up, test the car, and see how I've done over the past 22months.
jk jk. Sweet build btw! I have some good friends in CO will have to stop by your shop one day when Im in town.
