I recall such thread...What were my words again???

You will get this. Remember I made my power at 13* of timing so, you don't need a lot to get the car a steam rolling.

If I'm not mistaken the timing curve of our engine is more of a parabolic curve. You will get nothing at first then it will be decent gains until MBT, then it will start to taper off and you'll experience knock.

Side note: Did you go to Rocky Mountain Race Week and watch any of the racing?

 

Did you say timing makes power - I don't recall? Do you remember that thread? I don't want to 'call out' OMZ but I thought he was the one who said boost makes power …But I'm not upset or anything, in reality, it's gonna be a little bit of both. This is all one big science experiment!!

Part of me is worried that maybe I'm losing compression or something and I have that revolving negative thought process like 'oh **** - something is majorly wrong' but I appreciate your support. I do have some cash from sidework / side hustle that I can spend on a tune and I think that's what I need to do.

From what I know, have seen, and have heard from trusted individuals is that our NA engines are MBT limited (like you said - so you can find top power / torque well before knock). And the DE when turbo'd/supercharged - light boost = MBT limited, medium boost - knock-limited, big boost - knock limited. Hopefully someone will confirm this.

I didn't catch Rocky Mountain Race Weekend - I've been crazy busy with work. Thanks for the support Conway!

 

It's not a simple answer, but both Timing and Boost make power when used properly together. To much of either is bad, to little of either is bad, its that combination of both that makes things fun. If you can make 500whp with 20psi and 5* of timing or 5psi and 20* of timing. Then you should shoot for the middle. Run 10psi and 10* of timing to make that same power. The timing is what is going to give you that low end torque while you are making boost and in part throttle.

Both OMZ and I said it's a combination of the two.

Take my car for example, I made 540whp at 18psi (i think, had belt slip) and 13* of timing. I should pulley up to the 3.13 to lower my boost but increase my timing to get that power back. It should only take two degrees of timing to get back the power lost from the boost. Lower boost creates less heat and helps prevent belt slip so the boost is more consistent. More timing creates higher combustion chamber temps and pressures so it's a give and take relationship.

I know for a fact that NA will hit MBT before knock. When we tuning my car NA we pushed the timing to make some power it was like 10* past MBT before we got knock. Were also at sea level with 93 oct fuel. Once you throw boost at it, it changes everything. If you were to be on 116 or e85 i don't think timing would be a factor on low boost <5psi but once you start to get higher boost or pump fuel, knock is always going to be you power limit (assuming your built for it).

Now on to Rocky Mountain Race Week, I'm seriously thinking about trying to do it next year. I wouldn't be doing it to set any records or anything, just a bucket list thing. Just like the Ice Cream Cruise that is also on my bucket list.

 

You guys are Funny....

Not sure what you guys are trying to figure out? lol

To many General Statements......

With a Blower Boost is Set! And Vortech SC'er's Love Timing.

Belt Slip is a Mechanical Problem that needs to be Fixed or Upgraded.....

You can make 30-32PSI on a 6rib Belt, if setup Right. maybe more.

VP C16, Almost will Never Detonate or Knock.

What is High Boost? These days over 50psi-130psi

What is too much timing? It's anything past MBT, If you get Knock on Low Octane Fuels back off 2* that's MBT. OR If you Stop making POWER, that's MBT

Again, The Vortech Loves Ignition Timing....... This is where they make a motor Sing! And you know when you are getting Right.

I ran 17* full advance on 93 Pump @ 20psi ( Stock VQ35DE) for 45,000 miles

I ran 26* full advance on VP C16 @ 20psi ( Stock VQ35DE) at the Dragstrip. As I would continue to add timing, it would continue to go Faster and Faster.

I see Drag Cars (YES different Motors) with 30PSI+ and 28-32* Timing With 10 or 11:1CR's Vortech WITHOUT an InterCooler on VP C16

But, in the end The Connecting Rods were Fatiguing and 5 out of 6 were Bending. Not because of Knock, 0 signs of Knock in the Combustion Chamber. They just were the Weak Link and could not handle power/torque.

If you guys would like an Ecell File to Use, with my Timing Data in it, It's an old one though. PM me with your email.

TimRod

 

For discussions sake bc you have wisdom that I seek...
yea yea yea - general statements, you're right and there's no one right answer!

from what I know and what I've seen (on pump 91 / 93oct) 22psi to 24psi is your limit before you start getting knock

I gotta find this C16! Unrealistic to think that you can run it in a daily but I will definitely pick it up to run at events.

too much timing would be timing beyond MBT

In my eyes hitting knock isn't MBT-timing (but I can see how one might say it is), I see it more as knock-limited timing (potatos pototos)

yea, you can only expect sooooo much from OEM components … I'm excited for your upcoming build!

Please and thank you - I'd love to see your timing file! I don't think it'll apply to me but Im interested for sure!

 

https://vpracingfuels.com/product/c16/?c=219

C16 is not something you run daily. It's race track only fuel unelss you have seriously deep pockets.. Its about $20 a gallon. That is why people run E85, its not quite 116 oct but its ~100-110 depending on the blend. This allows a decent amount of timing AND gives you the cooling effect.

I know how much you hate corn, just adding fuel to your inner fire.

 

Bandimere has a fuel station with a healthy selection of Sunoco fuels. The 110 to 116 (and I don't know if these are leaded or unleaded) are between $9 and $15 / gallon. It's easier to take a 5-10gallon can there and fill up than order directly from Sunoco or VP.

I know, I know … I don't like the corn! It's not that I don't like it, it's that I don't like the inconsistency of availability and inconsistency of grade …

https://bandimere.com/wp-content/upl...02-10-2020.pdf

 

Looks like you need to fashion up a drain on your fuel cell. $11 a gallon for 116 isn't bad! Put 3 gallons in when you get to the track and let that engine sing. 25psi and 23* of timing... LET HER SCREAM!

Real talk though how far are you from Bandimere? I'd be willing to bet their E98 is always E-98 and would allow you to push the car to your hearts content. I'll even bet their E85 is always E-85 but its more expensive than the E98.

 

I'm still running an OEM tank! It'd be another 20-30lbs of savings and I have a 5gallon cell ... one day!

I'm a healthy 45min to an hour away. I bet their E85 is E85 all day long! You got a point ... the bigger issue is that I could go E85 but it would not yield me much more power ...

My block is capped at / around 700hp? and realistically 600hp to 650hp for street use, which is 18psi to 20psi? which a 91oct can take along with WM. It'd cost me $1800 in new injectors and another few hundred dollars in sensors? It's alot more money for not much gain.

 

Stock sleeves were 900 i thought. Not many people push a DE that far though. I know people push HR's that far but i think they are better sleves and block.

Its not only about the power capabilities, its a cleaner cooler fuel. But I agree if you are not wanting to go ***** to the wall that extra money should be used on a fuel cell to switch over when you get to the track.

 

You dont think I can touch 700hp on like 23psi? on a 104/110oct w/water methamphetamines?

def cooler? cleaner? for how little I drive the car it's not a huge factor.

one step at a time!

 

Meth does wonderful things! I'm not saying you can't , if you can the oct up to 104 then it won't be a big deal. I'm just worried about the dookie 91 as the base fuel. Meth can only push it so far.

From what I've read corn is a few hundred degrees cooler than gas.

 

Am I f'd up thinking that I can push into 600hp on 18psi to 20psi of boost with reference that I did my 568hp on 17psi with no WMI back on my greddy twin setup? 20psi of boost puts me at ~610hp. I dont think my tuner was picking up on any detonation - we had to stop the session bc my fuel pump couldnt keep up.

Drop a 104 or 110oct in there and run 5 to 6 more psi and that puts me at 700'ish and I can die a happy man?? lol...

appreciate the discussion!

 

a little hat tip to OMZ for sharing his tuning file with me. Very interesting Tim!

I took the car out yesterday and uploaded my 568hp tune and I rounded all my ignition timing values down ... for instance, a 13.9degree BTDC value became 13degrees. I also programmed in my boost control to only allow me to hit 12psi of boost (which is what my tuner dialed me down to).

A little bit of a hiccup, but the car would crank but not start (fuel pump primed) with that old tune...so I copied/pasted my ign timing values into my previous tune and ran the car. It started fine and we got up and running. I did change my boost control table and I was still hitting 17psi of boost!! It perplexed me and when I went back to the table I forgot to clear out two rows of cells (meaning I had enough duty cycle in the that I was able to push 17psi) ...

I want to get a few minor things fixed on the car and I'm gonna head in for a tune.

Part of me wants to go rent dyno time and tune the fuel myself...

 

Beall, What is your suspension / tire / camber setup?! ( maybe I missed it in this giant thread lol ) Are you currently making full use and putting all 600hp to the ground? Just wondering why the bump goal of needed 700whp?

 

I have a set of Fortune Auto coilovers and they were put to stock camber/toe back in Fall of 2018.

I think I'm only making 300 to 350hp as I need to go and get tuned.

700hp is about the limit of the clutch/transmission/drive shaft/axles, plus or minus? Just trying to maximize that.

 

700 may be the limit for your clutch and myabe the axles but not tranny or diff.

Tranny is capable of 1000 or 8 sec car power. Diff is also up there. The CTSV guys are switching to z pumpkins because they are so cheap and strang.

 

Stock sleeves if anyone cares.

 

Dam, thats a ton of power. What is that 35psi on a 6766?

 

Tom!

Is that 1067hp?

on pump? equivalent to 94oct and a healthy dose of WMI?

what did you do about your transmission?

How are things over there? How are you doing?