When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
That was made with 13* of timing up top and a little bit of belt slip. So I have the potential to make a decent amount more power.
Originally Posted by bealljk
I agree with you Conway. And there are many variables to consider
(maybe you know where I'm going with this) Was your 540hp and 457tq with your supercharge … and … your kinetix intake? (see where I'm going with this?)
OMZ has brass ********* with the power, torque, and timing he was running on his car! But he too was suffering from parastatic losses of a supercharger(I speculate).
That was made with 13* of timing up top and a little bit of belt slip. So I have the potential to make a decent amount more power.
I will concede that the Kinetix makes more horsepower on the top end but due to its inefficient design(as previously discussed) it is costing your peak torque where max airflow isnt occuring and the engine relys on an efficient intake runner design to optimize torque.
If you have a little extra time on the dyno after your tune is complete you should swap the OEM intake back on and do a few pulls to see how it does as a near/direct comparison.
Yea 13 degrees seems soft ... you'll get it cleaned up! Excited to see how things play out after the break-in period.
Beall I just side on caution over destruction lol. I'm sure you'd be a more reliable source for info but can you even adjust the boost on that kit? It's going to make what the pulley tells it to make is it not?
Also don't hate on our intakes, they are better than stock after all lol.
Renfro do you have the kit already? I would talk to Z1 about it as they are a master dealer and one of their employees runs the kit on his G35
Beall I just side on caution over destruction lol. I'm sure you'd be a more reliable source for info but can you even adjust the boost on that kit? It's going to make what the pulley tells it to make is it not?
Also don't hate on our intakes, they are better than stock after all lol.
Renfro do you have the kit already? I would talk to Z1 about it as they are a master dealer and one of their employees runs the kit on his G35
With a blower, you'll make what ever boost your pulleys are set to. NOW, you could fab up a wastegate to bleed off excess boost if you wanted to run a set boost. Pulley down as low as you could so you hit said boost as quick as possible but have your wastegate bleed off the excess boost.
Don't forget I already did that N/A. The kinetix actually made a bigger difference in the mid range torque than it did in the up top HP.
I don't have the plenum spacer anymore so the test wouldn't be worth it. We all know the stock plenum with out a spacer is dookie.
Originally Posted by bealljk
I will concede that the Kinetix makes more horsepower on the top end but due to its inefficient design(as previously discussed) it is costing your peak torque where max airflow isnt occuring and the engine relys on an efficient intake runner design to optimize torque.
If you have a little extra time on the dyno after your tune is complete you should swap the OEM intake back on and do a few pulls to see how it does as a near/direct comparison.
Yea 13 degrees seems soft ... you'll get it cleaned up! Excited to see how things play out after the break-in period.
Conway. Did you get gains with the Kinetix intake compared to stock plenum with a spacer?
The HKS kit has a relief valve for boost when you cruise along.
Beall I just side on caution over destruction lol. I'm sure you'd be a more reliable source for info but can you even adjust the boost on that kit? It's going to make what the pulley tells it to make is it not?
Also don't hate on our intakes, they are better than stock after all lol. Renfro do you have the kit already? I would talk to Z1 about it as they are a master dealer and one of their employees runs the kit on his G35
I hear ya! It's wise - I'm the same way … how long have I been taking it easy on my rebuild fearing a meltdown!
I don't know enough about the kit over than boost control or messing with pulleys in some fashion? Yea, I would assume that the pulleys are the deciding factor - but my experience on these are very limited (and I appreciate the discussion here).
I am not a fan of the Kinetix - I have minimal engine/intake runner design experience but what I have learned early-on and of the basic principles is that the kinetixs breaks most those rules.
I don't believe they are better than stock (don't take that personally - I think the world of you and Conway). Especially when it comes to torque - your peak torque is where the engine is operating at it's highest efficiency (right? agree? disagree?) which means optimal volumetric efficiency? And you get there by filling the cylinder with the most air & fuel? Which is done with the ram-effect of airflow down a intake runner?
I'll go out on a limb here and say that the supercharger is further hiding and covering up the inefficiencies of the kinetixs intake.
Originally Posted by Conway_160
Don't forget I already did that N/A. The kinetix actually made a bigger difference in the mid range torque than it did in the up top HP. I don't have the plenum spacer anymore so the test wouldn't be worth it. We all know the stock plenum with out a spacer is dookie.
You did it NA but you are supercharged now - two different ball games. Its hard for me to conceptualize why your torque is so low compared to your hp.
Boost will be "set" by and limited by the pulley and running/not running the restrictor plate. However, boost is also going to vary based on breathing mods done to the engine. Say, the 110 might show 8psi on a completely stock motor, but it would likely dip to 6psi or maybe even lower with everything I have done to mine. I don't have the kit yet, but have researched a ton and made calls to some folks running the kit to ask questions. The pressure relief valve while cruising is a new one I haven't heard about, but sounds interesting.
I'm going to step out on a limb and argue in defense of the Kinetix velocity. In short, it just depends. I used it matched with 272 cams and think it did a great job hitting the numbers, area under the curve, and holding power in higher rpms (dyno attached). Every case I've seen it makes a good deal more power under FI applications vs an OEM plenum setup, but I guess it depends on the target and how you want the car to act. If your goal is a strong peak in the upper mid-range, an OEM plenum setup would likely be the way to go.
Conway. Did you get gains with the Kinetix intake compared to stock plenum with a spacer?
The HKS kit has a relief valve for boost when you cruise along.
Up top it was marginal but down low it was substantial.
You did it NA but you are supercharged now - two different ball games. Its hard for me to conceptualize why your torque is so low compared to your hp.
To this day I still can't explain the torque reading. I'm wondering if the speed at the bottom is wrong and that is causing the low torque rating. I'll have to go back and see if he has any sheets of the bottom axis being MPH and not RPM.
Beall I would agree with the VE statement in a NA engine, but may vary in boosted applications. My whole thought with this kit has been you need to source your entire fuel system and engine management so why even bother with it's lower power form if you intend on raising the boost. Do it right off the start and do it once.
As far as runner design, I went through learning the effects of it but it was a while back, it has to play well with header layout too but then again in NA engines.
In theory longer runners create torque and shorter runners create hp. I used to have a program we used at school but I think it was on my old computer that doesn't work anymore. Now I haven't measured the Kinetix vs the stock one but me maybe I will. I do have my old modded bottom and spacer maybe I'll keep them and do testing in the future lol. They "look" longer on the Kinetix but I don't necessarily think they are, that would explain why Conway was seeing better mid-range but it doesn't explain why it makes better power up top, unless the stock one is just THAT choked up top.
Beall I would agree with the VE statement in a NA engine, but may vary in boosted applications. My whole thought with this kit has been you need to source your entire fuel system and engine management so why even bother with it's lower power form if you intend on raising the boost. Do it right off the start and do it once.
As far as runner design, I went through learning the effects of it but it was a while back, it has to play well with header layout too but then again in NA engines.
In theory longer runners create torque and shorter runners create hp. I used to have a program we used at school but I think it was on my old computer that doesn't work anymore. Now I haven't measured the Kinetix vs the stock one but me maybe I will. I do have my old modded bottom and spacer maybe I'll keep them and do testing in the future lol. They "look" longer on the Kinetix but I don't necessarily think they are, that would explain why Conway was seeing better mid-range but it doesn't explain why it makes better power up top, unless the stock one is just THAT choked up top.
I appreciate the discussion and anything negative that I say shouldnt be taken personal against you, conway, or anyone else that has this manifold as I'm doing my best to simply bring up design flaws of the Kinetixs and not the end user - so dont take it as a personal attack. A. I like everyone here and B. that's pretty childish (If I dont like you I dont talk to you and I wouldnt waste my time)
I would love to see a computer generated flow analysis of the intake (to the best of ones abilities)
I never would take it as an insult, I just defend the manifold because I think it gets a bad rep because of the SSV doing so bad. I don't have access to tools needed and my welding skills aren't the best, but the Kinetix while not optimal is still better in design to stock. I think if I was to make it would be a mirrored design to it, incorporate velocity stacks in it, and have the TB be angled somewhere near the dip stick.
everyone doing custom or modded ones alway end up with a center TB or a elbow somewhere, neither are optimal.
I never would take it as an insult, I just defend the manifold because I think it gets a bad rep because of the SSV doing so bad. I don't have access to tools needed and my welding skills aren't the best, but the Kinetix while not optimal is still better in design to stock. I think if I was to make it would be a mirrored design to it, incorporate velocity stacks in it, and have the TB be angled somewhere near the dip stick.
everyone doing custom or modded ones alway end up with a center TB or a elbow somewhere, neither are optimal.
forgive my ignorance ... which manifold do you have? Send me a link to your build - please and thank you!
Quick question to you guys running this kit, are you running a stock TB, would the 75mm even do anything given that the intake pipe for this kit is 2-3/4" OD?
I currently have one but if it ain't going to do anything then I'll just go back to the stock one once I put the kit on.
How much boost are you guys hitting and is the max boost reached at redline? How high do you rev the engine? My max boost is little under 10 psi around 6500 rpm. My redline is at 7250 rpm, but boost starts to drop after 6500 rpm. I wonder if I have a vacuum leak or belt slip...
I bought the the bigger tb out of curiosity. I'll let you know how it plays out.
100% belt slip. Boost is a curve that raises with RPM.
Originally Posted by 350z-Helsinki
How much boost are you guys hitting and is the max boost reached at redline? How high do you rev the engine? My max boost is little under 10 psi around 6500 rpm. My redline is at 7250 rpm, but boost starts to drop after 6500 rpm. I wonder if I have a vacuum leak or belt slip...
I bought the the bigger tb out of curiosity. I'll let you know how it plays out.
How much boost are you guys hitting and is the max boost reached at redline? How high do you rev the engine? My max boost is little under 10 psi around 6500 rpm. My redline is at 7250 rpm, but boost starts to drop after 6500 rpm. I wonder if I have a vacuum leak or belt slip...
I bought the the bigger tb out of curiosity. I'll let you know how it plays out.
Cool, keep me updated, I really don't see how it would help given that the charge pipe is smaller, I've considered taking the pipe to a shop and having it made in a bigger size but it looks like there isn't much space in there as is. Not sure if it would be worth it. Also is everyone running the air filter that comes with the kit? I don't trust foam filters and wanted to possibly relocate and use a dry media filter.
My order was delayed so badly that I decided to cancel it. So no updates for the bigger TB. I guess I should leave the Z alone and start working on my 280z.
04-15-2020, 04:07 PM
