J&S Safeguard with Greddy TT and eManage
04-18-2004, 05:40 PM
#1
J&S Safeguard with Greddy TT and eManage
I've been extensive research on the J&S Safeguard, and it's suitability when coupled with the Greddy TT and eManage.
The eManage is a great unit, and highly programmable. Mapping fuel seems relatively straightforward with a dyno and wideband, but in the area of timing...it gets a little bit trickier.
Timing retard is VERY subjective, and even if perfectly tuned on the dyno, different road or weather conditions can still create a dangerous detonation situation. Also, with the emanage, I'd have to set the timing and test...set and test...set and test...OK..you get my point.
Now, the J&S coupled with the eManage seems like a very good solution. I can use the emanage to easily map fuel. I can add fuel in certain areas, and subtract in others with relative easy with my Profec e-01 or a laptop (once I get the stock map values from ETX...
). Then, I can install the J&S to automatically retard timing when/if detonation is present. The J&S essentially will keep the car right on the brink of detonation, which gives you max power, and doesn't unecessariliy retard timing.
So as my WHP progresses, I can add fuel via emanage, and then let the J&S do its thing with timing retard.
Now, this SEEMS like a good solution, but i wanna know about the drawbacks of this type of setup. So far, I havent found any.> The J&S can retard timing up to 20degress if needed, and in an individual cylinder if needed, so you arent needlessly retarding the timing in all cyclinders (loosing power) when only 1 or 2 cylinders are misbehaving. It has has some kind of RPM and Boost dependent adjustments for added tunability.
What have I missed....I know there are some J&S experts out there in the SC world.
The eManage is a great unit, and highly programmable. Mapping fuel seems relatively straightforward with a dyno and wideband, but in the area of timing...it gets a little bit trickier.
Timing retard is VERY subjective, and even if perfectly tuned on the dyno, different road or weather conditions can still create a dangerous detonation situation. Also, with the emanage, I'd have to set the timing and test...set and test...set and test...OK..you get my point.
Now, the J&S coupled with the eManage seems like a very good solution. I can use the emanage to easily map fuel. I can add fuel in certain areas, and subtract in others with relative easy with my Profec e-01 or a laptop (once I get the stock map values from ETX...
). Then, I can install the J&S to automatically retard timing when/if detonation is present. The J&S essentially will keep the car right on the brink of detonation, which gives you max power, and doesn't unecessariliy retard timing.So as my WHP progresses, I can add fuel via emanage, and then let the J&S do its thing with timing retard.
Now, this SEEMS like a good solution, but i wanna know about the drawbacks of this type of setup. So far, I havent found any.> The J&S can retard timing up to 20degress if needed, and in an individual cylinder if needed, so you arent needlessly retarding the timing in all cyclinders (loosing power) when only 1 or 2 cylinders are misbehaving. It has has some kind of RPM and Boost dependent adjustments for added tunability.
What have I missed....I know there are some J&S experts out there in the SC world.
04-19-2004, 05:33 AM
#2
Registered User
iTrader: (12)
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Man in the Sun
Posts: 2,222
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: J&S Safeguard with Greddy TT and eManage
Originally posted by gq_model_626
I've been extensive research on the J&S Safeguard, and it's suitability when coupled with the Greddy TT and eManage.
The eManage is a great unit, and highly programmable. Mapping fuel seems relatively straightforward with a dyno and wideband, but in the area of timing...it gets a little bit trickier.
Timing retard is VERY subjective, and even if perfectly tuned on the dyno, different road or weather conditions can still create a dangerous detonation situation. Also, with the emanage, I'd have to set the timing and test...set and test...set and test...OK..you get my point.
Now, the J&S coupled with the eManage seems like a very good solution. I can use the emanage to easily map fuel. I can add fuel in certain areas, and subtract in others with relative easy with my Profec e-01 or a laptop (once I get the stock map values from ETX... ). Then, I can install the J&S to automatically retard timing when/if detonation is present. The J&S essentially will keep the car right on the brink of detonation, which gives you max power, and doesn't unecessariliy retard timing.
So as my WHP progresses, I can add fuel via emanage, and then let the J&S do its thing with timing retard.
Now, this SEEMS like a good solution, but i wanna know about the drawbacks of this type of setup. So far, I havent found any.> The J&S can retard timing up to 20degress if needed, and in an individual cylinder if needed, so you arent needlessly retarding the timing in all cyclinders (loosing power) when only 1 or 2 cylinders are misbehaving. It has has some kind of RPM and Boost dependent adjustments for added tunability.
What have I missed....I know there are some J&S experts out there in the SC world.
I've been extensive research on the J&S Safeguard, and it's suitability when coupled with the Greddy TT and eManage.
The eManage is a great unit, and highly programmable. Mapping fuel seems relatively straightforward with a dyno and wideband, but in the area of timing...it gets a little bit trickier.
Timing retard is VERY subjective, and even if perfectly tuned on the dyno, different road or weather conditions can still create a dangerous detonation situation. Also, with the emanage, I'd have to set the timing and test...set and test...set and test...OK..you get my point.
Now, the J&S coupled with the eManage seems like a very good solution. I can use the emanage to easily map fuel. I can add fuel in certain areas, and subtract in others with relative easy with my Profec e-01 or a laptop (once I get the stock map values from ETX...
). Then, I can install the J&S to automatically retard timing when/if detonation is present. The J&S essentially will keep the car right on the brink of detonation, which gives you max power, and doesn't unecessariliy retard timing.So as my WHP progresses, I can add fuel via emanage, and then let the J&S do its thing with timing retard.
Now, this SEEMS like a good solution, but i wanna know about the drawbacks of this type of setup. So far, I havent found any.> The J&S can retard timing up to 20degress if needed, and in an individual cylinder if needed, so you arent needlessly retarding the timing in all cyclinders (loosing power) when only 1 or 2 cylinders are misbehaving. It has has some kind of RPM and Boost dependent adjustments for added tunability.
What have I missed....I know there are some J&S experts out there in the SC world.
04-19-2004, 07:57 AM
#4
Registered User
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 427
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Besides cost, that's the safest and best way to eek out max power IMO.
As far as working together, they work great. I know people running both, even one that has sucessfully gone up to 16psi with a stock CR.
You just can't use the timing functions of the eManage, of course.
As far as working together, they work great. I know people running both, even one that has sucessfully gone up to 16psi with a stock CR.
You just can't use the timing functions of the eManage, of course.
04-19-2004, 03:29 PM
#6
Registered User
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 427
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
http://www.jandssafeguard.com/
Originally posted by 1G'
hmmm sounds good i cant wait to be running with you guys hey whats the price?? or link??
hmmm sounds good i cant wait to be running with you guys hey whats the price?? or link??
04-19-2004, 04:46 PM
#7
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Detroit, The Motor City
Posts: 949
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The emanage can pull advance per psi of boost. The map is PSIxRPM. I think it's a great solution and so far I am loving it. I can't see paying $600 for ANOTHER piggyback when I have one that will do it already in the car. The J&S is nice for superchargers because of it's linear nautre. But your going to end up pulling too much advance in the upper rpm's if your tuned for the midrange where you actually need to pull the most advance.
I think you guys just like to buy stuff for your Z!
I think you guys just like to buy stuff for your Z!
Trending Topics
04-19-2004, 05:23 PM
#8
ETX I agree with you. But the one feature I like on the J&S is that it can automatically retard timing in the individual cyclyder that is actually knocking...in a spilt second...before the human ear would hear the pinging.
The eManage is great, but once the timing map is set, it doesn't automatically adjust based on weather, a bad tank of gas, load on the vehicle, gear...etc.
The J&S will not unecessarily retard timing...it will only did it when detonation is imminent...and again...only in the cylyinder that is misbehaving...rather than the entire engine.
So I could potentually conceptrate on the stuff I can understand and measure (A/F), and let the J&S do it's timing retard thing invisbiliy in the background.
By the way..the J&S is only $485
The eManage is great, but once the timing map is set, it doesn't automatically adjust based on weather, a bad tank of gas, load on the vehicle, gear...etc.
The J&S will not unecessarily retard timing...it will only did it when detonation is imminent...and again...only in the cylyinder that is misbehaving...rather than the entire engine.
So I could potentually conceptrate on the stuff I can understand and measure (A/F), and let the J&S do it's timing retard thing invisbiliy in the background.
By the way..the J&S is only $485
04-20-2004, 06:43 AM
#9
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Detroit, The Motor City
Posts: 949
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hrmm. Does the J&S use the stock knock sensor?
Usually under boost detonation is so severe you can hear it, but the knock sensor cannot. At that point it's too late. The stock knock sensor should pull timing if it hears any light knock.
Usually under boost detonation is so severe you can hear it, but the knock sensor cannot. At that point it's too late. The stock knock sensor should pull timing if it hears any light knock.
04-20-2004, 07:42 AM
#11
Registered User
iTrader: (12)
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Man in the Sun
Posts: 2,222
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by Smoked
True which J&S setup will you go with, is it the Marine/Racing, haven't read up enough on the setups.
True which J&S setup will you go with, is it the Marine/Racing, haven't read up enough on the setups.
04-20-2004, 02:36 PM
#12
Originally posted by etx
Hrmm. Does the J&S use the stock knock sensor?
Usually under boost detonation is so severe you can hear it, but the knock sensor cannot. At that point it's too late. The stock knock sensor should pull timing if it hears any light knock.
Hrmm. Does the J&S use the stock knock sensor?
Usually under boost detonation is so severe you can hear it, but the knock sensor cannot. At that point it's too late. The stock knock sensor should pull timing if it hears any light knock.
It also has quite a bit of programmability, so you can retard based on RPM, boost, and other factors. You can also set the start retard RPM..so for example...you could set it up only to retad after 3000rpm, and only after 3psi of boost...or something like that.
It seems very sophisticated, and again, it is making these minute adjustments at the speed of combustion....VERY VERY fast. In practice, the J&M is totally invisble...you should feel the retard, or any effect on the motor...just smooth knock-free power...regardless of conditions...as long as your A/F is pretty safe.
04-20-2004, 08:02 PM
#14
GQ,
This is the very route I was thinking about myself. The nice thing about it is that no additional piggyback computers will not be necessary. One would be able to just tune the ECU (in my case for the PE kit) with the right A/F and aggressive timings for, say, 7psi and can then turn up the boost while using J&S's boost dependent retardation feature to adjust the timing for the higher boost.
The J&S is being used on almost all serious high boost vehicles on the race circuit, so I definitely trust the device. Also, Corky Bell strongly suggests its use as it will permit for aggressive timings and retard them when needed (change in air temp, etc.).
This is a good idea for a reasonable cost. Great peace-of-mind, especially for those track days wher eyou can't help but have a question mark about the engine's safety when you really push the car.
Gurgen
This is the very route I was thinking about myself. The nice thing about it is that no additional piggyback computers will not be necessary. One would be able to just tune the ECU (in my case for the PE kit) with the right A/F and aggressive timings for, say, 7psi and can then turn up the boost while using J&S's boost dependent retardation feature to adjust the timing for the higher boost.
The J&S is being used on almost all serious high boost vehicles on the race circuit, so I definitely trust the device. Also, Corky Bell strongly suggests its use as it will permit for aggressive timings and retard them when needed (change in air temp, etc.).
This is a good idea for a reasonable cost. Great peace-of-mind, especially for those track days wher eyou can't help but have a question mark about the engine's safety when you really push the car.
Gurgen
04-20-2004, 08:16 PM
#15
Originally posted by slay2k
So GQ, you gonna go this route after all ? Or what ?
So GQ, you gonna go this route after all ? Or what ?
Despite the cost, I think this unit will more than pay for itself, in terms of engine longevity, and the dollars you would spend on the dyno to tune your timing.
Once the J&S is installed, I could use my Profec e-01 or laptop to adjust fuel, and let the J&S automatically adjust the timing accordingly. A/F is relatively easy to dial in without a dyno (and free)...as long as you have a wideband with data logging provisions (I have data logging in my Profec e-01), and nice long open road.
04-20-2004, 10:51 PM
#16
Originally posted by gurgenpb01
GQ,
This is the very route I was thinking about myself. The nice thing about it is that no additional piggyback computers will not be necessary. One would be able to just tune the ECU (in my case for the PE kit) with the right A/F and aggressive timings for, say, 7psi and can then turn up the boost while using J&S's boost dependent retardation feature to adjust the timing for the higher boost.
Gurgen
GQ,
This is the very route I was thinking about myself. The nice thing about it is that no additional piggyback computers will not be necessary. One would be able to just tune the ECU (in my case for the PE kit) with the right A/F and aggressive timings for, say, 7psi and can then turn up the boost while using J&S's boost dependent retardation feature to adjust the timing for the higher boost.
Gurgen
This is the one area where the eManage beats out the relfash. With the eManage, you can manually input more fuel for higher boost conditions..or even have two or three fuel tables for different boost levels. With the ECU reflash, you are stuck at one boost level, which isnt necessarily a problem if you are OK with not changing your boost.
04-21-2004, 08:21 AM
#17
Registered User
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 427
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Another advantage of the J&S is the knock gauge.
Once you dial in the sensitivity level that it picks up knock, you can go out and start tweaking your eManage/SS-box or boost controller while having a warning light that shows when you're detonating. Then you can back off timing, add fuel, or reduce boost.
Jesse also brought up a good point that the J&S is superior in that it can compensate for a batch of bad gas. Or maybe a trip to higher elevation or hotter temps. You can be overly aggressive by retarding timing via boost/rpm with the eManage/SS FTC1 to leave plenty of safety net room at the cost of hp/tq, but with the J&S you don't have too. You can dial in EXACTLY the amount of retard you need for that load/RPM/condition and if you ever exceed that, the J&S will protect your engine. Again, with the knock gauge, you'll see detonation so you can back off, but with the eManage or SS-box, you're relying on your ears.
Once you dial in the sensitivity level that it picks up knock, you can go out and start tweaking your eManage/SS-box or boost controller while having a warning light that shows when you're detonating. Then you can back off timing, add fuel, or reduce boost.
Jesse also brought up a good point that the J&S is superior in that it can compensate for a batch of bad gas. Or maybe a trip to higher elevation or hotter temps. You can be overly aggressive by retarding timing via boost/rpm with the eManage/SS FTC1 to leave plenty of safety net room at the cost of hp/tq, but with the J&S you don't have too. You can dial in EXACTLY the amount of retard you need for that load/RPM/condition and if you ever exceed that, the J&S will protect your engine. Again, with the knock gauge, you'll see detonation so you can back off, but with the eManage or SS-box, you're relying on your ears.
04-21-2004, 12:29 PM
#18
Originally posted by IceY2K1Max
Another advantage of the J&S is the knock gauge.
Once you dial in the sensitivity level that it picks up knock, you can go out and start tweaking your eManage/SS-box or boost controller while having a warning light that shows when you're detonating. Then you can back off timing, add fuel, or reduce boost.
Jesse also brought up a good point that the J&S is superior in that it can compensate for a batch of bad gas. Or maybe a trip to higher elevation or hotter temps. You can be overly aggressive by retarding timing via boost/rpm with the eManage/SS FTC1 to leave plenty of safety net room at the cost of hp/tq, but with the J&S you don't have too. You can dial in EXACTLY the amount of retard you need for that load/RPM/condition and if you ever exceed that, the J&S will protect your engine. Again, with the knock gauge, you'll see detonation so you can back off, but with the eManage or SS-box, you're relying on your ears.
Another advantage of the J&S is the knock gauge.
Once you dial in the sensitivity level that it picks up knock, you can go out and start tweaking your eManage/SS-box or boost controller while having a warning light that shows when you're detonating. Then you can back off timing, add fuel, or reduce boost.
Jesse also brought up a good point that the J&S is superior in that it can compensate for a batch of bad gas. Or maybe a trip to higher elevation or hotter temps. You can be overly aggressive by retarding timing via boost/rpm with the eManage/SS FTC1 to leave plenty of safety net room at the cost of hp/tq, but with the J&S you don't have too. You can dial in EXACTLY the amount of retard you need for that load/RPM/condition and if you ever exceed that, the J&S will protect your engine. Again, with the knock gauge, you'll see detonation so you can back off, but with the eManage or SS-box, you're relying on your ears.
04-21-2004, 01:22 PM
#19
Registered User
iTrader: (5)
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Palos Verdes, CA
Posts: 1,218
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by Eagle1
This is precisely the reasoning that I followed in choosing the unit, which I have sitting in my library at home but not installed. The reason is that after going through the material it quickly became apparent to me that I was in way over my head on an installation of this as a DIY project. I took the unit down to PerfNissan for them to scope out, and they tend to be real "can do" guys, but they felt it was too advanced. Is there anybody in the So Cal area that has put one of these on a G35/350Z that can speak from personal experience with the unit on and operating on their car, and an installer to recommend? I know that with my extremely conservative a/f ratio right now that I am burning way too rich and leaving way too much power behind. Going for the zenith is not the objective, just to tune it the way you should for a performance car and knowing that if something goes awry you will not burn a hole in a piston or shove a rod through the cylinder wall. I need a name and number if anybody out there has one, please.
This is precisely the reasoning that I followed in choosing the unit, which I have sitting in my library at home but not installed. The reason is that after going through the material it quickly became apparent to me that I was in way over my head on an installation of this as a DIY project. I took the unit down to PerfNissan for them to scope out, and they tend to be real "can do" guys, but they felt it was too advanced. Is there anybody in the So Cal area that has put one of these on a G35/350Z that can speak from personal experience with the unit on and operating on their car, and an installer to recommend? I know that with my extremely conservative a/f ratio right now that I am burning way too rich and leaving way too much power behind. Going for the zenith is not the objective, just to tune it the way you should for a performance car and knowing that if something goes awry you will not burn a hole in a piston or shove a rod through the cylinder wall. I need a name and number if anybody out there has one, please.
He did install jritoli's 350z procharger on so this additional electronics should be no problem.
Also he did do the installation of gg_626_model's profec e-01.
Contact them at 626-962-1503 and let them know that Jeff aka bobowah sent ya.
-Jeff
04-21-2004, 02:01 PM
#20
Originally posted by gq_model_626
If your ECU is tuned for 7psi, you will not be able to safely turn up the boost or you will go lean. The ECU will NOT compensate with more fuel automatically...you'd need to get reflashed for the higher boost level. The MAF voltage maxes out at 5V....at around 4-5000rpm depending on gear, boost, and engine load...after that, the ECU has no idea what the airflow is, and you map is only good for 7psi in this example. But the J&S would still handle timing issues regardless of boost.
This is the one area where the eManage beats out the relfash. With the eManage, you can manually input more fuel for higher boost conditions..or even have two or three fuel tables for different boost levels. With the ECU reflash, you are stuck at one boost level, which isnt necessarily a problem if you are OK with not changing your boost.
If your ECU is tuned for 7psi, you will not be able to safely turn up the boost or you will go lean. The ECU will NOT compensate with more fuel automatically...you'd need to get reflashed for the higher boost level. The MAF voltage maxes out at 5V....at around 4-5000rpm depending on gear, boost, and engine load...after that, the ECU has no idea what the airflow is, and you map is only good for 7psi in this example. But the J&S would still handle timing issues regardless of boost.
This is the one area where the eManage beats out the relfash. With the eManage, you can manually input more fuel for higher boost conditions..or even have two or three fuel tables for different boost levels. With the ECU reflash, you are stuck at one boost level, which isnt necessarily a problem if you are OK with not changing your boost.
It is still THE tool to go with. Also, does nyone know if you only need the Bosh Lxxx 11 sensor to add to their knock/af gauge to get accurate A/F readings? Do you guys think this A/F is acurate?
Gurgen