21HP 19 FT Torque! On the 350Z
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Originally Posted by Wotnot
....your intake is over priced relative to the competition. I can buy a K n N for $260 and a JWT for around $100.
You might want to consider your price point. Just my .02![](https://my350z.com/forum/images/smilies/icon44.gif)
You might want to consider your price point. Just my .02
![](https://my350z.com/forum/images/smilies/icon44.gif)
#363
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Grasshopper, all credit to you for putting up and answering peoples questions! But i get the feeling you are avoiding my questions?
You seams to have covered most other questions but not my questions on the previous page, ill post them again:
And to add to that list of questions for Grasshopper:
4. Do you personally honestly beleve that your filter and heat shield connected to the stock MAF tunnel and intake piping generates a 25% increase in total power on a 94' BMW 325? (regardless of what your dyno says). YES or NO answer please
5. For the E36 BMW intake, how many runs did you do for baseline and the run with the intake, did all generate the around the 42hp or was this one peak "max gain" figure from one of the runs?
6. If you say that its a real dyno chart in the PDF for the E36, WHY IS IT SOOO POOR QUALITY COMPARED TO THE OTHER IMAGES?? It's impossible to make out ANY numbers, but i guess that is the whole point...
7. If you look closely at the dyno chart for the E36 you can see that on the filter run the power skyrockets out above the chart area just near peak rpm while the baseline dies at the same place, is this where you have your 42hp??
8. Your filter for the E39 (5-series) BMW (with the almost indentical inline 2.5 6cyl engine as in the E36) produces 4hp gains according to this: AFE BMW 525/528 Sales PDF . Does the 4" long 1½" larger diameter pipe and filter that you have for the E36 filter accomodate for the 38hp difference between these 2 of your filters on almost identical BMW 2.5 litre engines?
/Roger
You seams to have covered most other questions but not my questions on the previous page, ill post them again:
And to add to that list of questions for Grasshopper:
4. Do you personally honestly beleve that your filter and heat shield connected to the stock MAF tunnel and intake piping generates a 25% increase in total power on a 94' BMW 325? (regardless of what your dyno says). YES or NO answer please
5. For the E36 BMW intake, how many runs did you do for baseline and the run with the intake, did all generate the around the 42hp or was this one peak "max gain" figure from one of the runs?
6. If you say that its a real dyno chart in the PDF for the E36, WHY IS IT SOOO POOR QUALITY COMPARED TO THE OTHER IMAGES?? It's impossible to make out ANY numbers, but i guess that is the whole point...
7. If you look closely at the dyno chart for the E36 you can see that on the filter run the power skyrockets out above the chart area just near peak rpm while the baseline dies at the same place, is this where you have your 42hp??
8. Your filter for the E39 (5-series) BMW (with the almost indentical inline 2.5 6cyl engine as in the E36) produces 4hp gains according to this: AFE BMW 525/528 Sales PDF . Does the 4" long 1½" larger diameter pipe and filter that you have for the E36 filter accomodate for the 38hp difference between these 2 of your filters on almost identical BMW 2.5 litre engines?
/Roger
Last edited by Roggan; 08-19-2005 at 01:01 PM.
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Originally Posted by grasshopper
Q1 We have a ream of dyno sheets on this kit.
Q2 The owner is our VP of Engineering. He has a kit in his vehicle.
Q3 Air velocity varies in the tube and the MAF will pick up different air velocity depending on where it is located.
I am familiar with Jim Wolf Technologies and have a high degree of respect for what he does, especially with Nissans. Does anyone have any third party dyno results on his Popcharger?
Q2 The owner is our VP of Engineering. He has a kit in his vehicle.
Q3 Air velocity varies in the tube and the MAF will pick up different air velocity depending on where it is located.
I am familiar with Jim Wolf Technologies and have a high degree of respect for what he does, especially with Nissans. Does anyone have any third party dyno results on his Popcharger?
Yet you still stray away from the 40+hp BMW gain lie that we keep asking you about. Please speak about it truthfully. No way an intake can make that kind of power
![Roll Eyes (Sarcastic)](https://my350z.com/forum/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif)
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grasshopper has posted 6 times since...
"And to add to that list of questions for Grasshopper:
4. Do you personally honestly beleve that your filter and heat shield connected to the stock MAF tunnel and intake piping generates a 25% increase in total power on a 94' BMW 325? (regardless of what your dyno says) YES or NO please."
...was pointed out in post #348, I don't think we're going to hear a response about the BMW claims.
"And to add to that list of questions for Grasshopper:
4. Do you personally honestly beleve that your filter and heat shield connected to the stock MAF tunnel and intake piping generates a 25% increase in total power on a 94' BMW 325? (regardless of what your dyno says) YES or NO please."
...was pointed out in post #348, I don't think we're going to hear a response about the BMW claims.
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Even BMW issues aside, I've yet to get a response on the claimed 21 HP gain on the 350z and whether they are going to continue to make that claim. It's not a 21 HP gain peak power. It's not a 21 HP gain at max HP levels. No where is it a 21 HP gain.
The dyno, though not as controlled as I would like, looks like there is a 10 HP gain? This is not a knock on Nissansource, since he's not the one doing the actual dyno. But I realize that there are some things you can control for, others you can't. Ambient temp, humidity, tire PSI are factors you do your best with. But coolant temp, alignment, ECU resets, can be done.
If the intake was offered at a competitive price and marketed with a 5-10 HP gain, I don't think many here would have a problem with that. But with the claimed improvement not being realistic and not backed by this test, people take notice.
The dyno, though not as controlled as I would like, looks like there is a 10 HP gain? This is not a knock on Nissansource, since he's not the one doing the actual dyno. But I realize that there are some things you can control for, others you can't. Ambient temp, humidity, tire PSI are factors you do your best with. But coolant temp, alignment, ECU resets, can be done.
If the intake was offered at a competitive price and marketed with a 5-10 HP gain, I don't think many here would have a problem with that. But with the claimed improvement not being realistic and not backed by this test, people take notice.
#367
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Originally Posted by E K
If the intake was offered at a competitive price and marketed with a 5-10 HP gain, I don't think many here would have a problem with that. But with the claimed improvement not being realistic and not backed by this test, people take notice.
I would have concidered buying one if:
1. End customer price ~250$ MAX (no competitior except full carbon etc intakes costs more)
2. Acctual scanned belivable dyno charts showing realistic gains and curves
3. Not publishing ANYTHING for any of their products ever which is logically impossible (like a 25% power incease...)
In my opinion the only way for aFe to move on from this position would be to either prove 21hp on the 350Z (AND a 42hp "max gain" increase on a '94 325 BMW!) OR to admit that they have published figures from "freak" dyno runs or however they got those figures and stop doing it and re-publish true gains!
Originally Posted by grasshopper
As for the numbers from the E36 intake kit, the dyno chart on the product announcement is not drawn but the actual dyno chart results from our Mustang dyno. We had a hard time believing the results too. The only explanation I have for the results is the tapered tube that we use. It allows us to put a larger 4 1/2" diameter filter on the system and seem to accelerate the airflow. Again, I acknowledge that using "max gain" numbers rather than"peak gain" number has caused some misconceptions.
AFE BMW 325 - 42hp gain PDF w dyno chart
![thumbdown](https://my350z.com/forum/images/smilies/thumbsdown.gif)
Grasshopper, Is this how the full dyno readout looks like with the actual peak visible?: (pic below is same quality as in the sales PDF)
If no picture is visible, click here
Did AFE "accidentally" come of the throttle near peak RPM in the stock baseline run and inject NOS when dynoing their filter near peak RPM?! (And scale the graph so the top peak is not visible...)
/Roger
Last edited by Roggan; 08-19-2005 at 03:48 PM.
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Even if we were to accept the 21hp+ gains, which are obviously bogus, what about the disparity in the pre/post gains at lower rpms where all other intakes typically post NO gains? The BMW curve shows the AFE intake making gains over the stock intake (which must have had a sock stuffed in it) from the start, at the low end of the posted curve. Check out the JWT intake dyno curve on the previous page - there are no noticeable gains until at least 4500rpm. The torque gains are even more pronounced. Apparently AFE has found a way to make fantastic low end torque AND unbelievable top end horsepower, all in the same upgrade. I have already been convinced that this is nothing more than a marketing ploy, something all vendors probably do to some extent. The only reason I'm following this now is to see how much bigger a hole grasshopper is going to dig himself in.
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Originally Posted by Roggan
...
Guys, look again closely at the BMW 325 dyno chart (which Grasshopper has confirmed to be "GENUINE"), look at the two HP curves (same with TQ) as they approach peak, the aFe filter curve shooting up out from the chart in a almost 90 degree angle while the baseline just fades down!!
...
/Roger
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Originally Posted by Roggan
Hey
Everything is included. It comes with the piping which you can connect to the front grille, or you can leave it as short ram sucking air from the shielded carbon box to the stock intake location, in the box there is a smart device to filter any water that would make its way in.
You can also select the color for the piping, it comes in polished, red, blue and silver.
Here is the product anouncement with some details about its construction and materials etc: K&N 350Z Typhoon product anouncement
Here is a believable propper dyno chart: K&N 350Z Typhoon Dyno Run
Here is the install instructions with pictures, you can see exactly how it looks like and installs: K&N 350Z Typhoon install instructions PDF
/Roger
Everything is included. It comes with the piping which you can connect to the front grille, or you can leave it as short ram sucking air from the shielded carbon box to the stock intake location, in the box there is a smart device to filter any water that would make its way in.
You can also select the color for the piping, it comes in polished, red, blue and silver.
Here is the product anouncement with some details about its construction and materials etc: K&N 350Z Typhoon product anouncement
Here is a believable propper dyno chart: K&N 350Z Typhoon Dyno Run
Here is the install instructions with pictures, you can see exactly how it looks like and installs: K&N 350Z Typhoon install instructions PDF
/Roger
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#371
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Originally Posted by E K
But it's not true horsepower. That's like claiming an automatic transmission G35/350z makes 270+ ft lbs of torque at 3500 when it's due to the torque convertor slipping.
Originally Posted by E K
That's why it's useful to be able to see more than one run in each configuration. Wouldn't the engineers at any performance parts company realize this on the dyno?
/Roger
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Originally Posted by Roggan
Grasshopper, all credit to you for putting up and answering peoples questions! But i get the feeling you are avoiding my questions?
You seams to have covered most other questions but not my questions on the previous page, ill post them again:
And to add to that list of questions for Grasshopper:
4. Do you personally honestly beleve that your filter and heat shield connected to the stock MAF tunnel and intake piping generates a 25% increase in total power on a 94' BMW 325? (regardless of what your dyno says). YES or NO answer please
5. For the E36 BMW intake, how many runs did you do for baseline and the run with the intake, did all generate the around the 42hp or was this one peak "max gain" figure from one of the runs?
6. If you say that its a real dyno chart in the PDF for the E36, WHY IS IT SOOO POOR QUALITY COMPARED TO THE OTHER IMAGES?? It's impossible to make out ANY numbers, but i guess that is the whole point...
7. If you look closely at the dyno chart for the E36 you can see that on the filter run the power skyrockets out above the chart area just near peak rpm while the baseline dies at the same place, is this where you have your 42hp??
8. Your filter for the E39 (5-series) BMW (with the almost indentical inline 2.5 6cyl engine as in the E36) produces 4hp gains according to this: AFE BMW 525/528 Sales PDF . Does the 4" long 1½" larger diameter pipe and filter that you have for the E36 filter accomodate for the 38hp difference between these 2 of your filters on almost identical BMW 2.5 litre engines?
/Roger
You seams to have covered most other questions but not my questions on the previous page, ill post them again:
And to add to that list of questions for Grasshopper:
4. Do you personally honestly beleve that your filter and heat shield connected to the stock MAF tunnel and intake piping generates a 25% increase in total power on a 94' BMW 325? (regardless of what your dyno says). YES or NO answer please
5. For the E36 BMW intake, how many runs did you do for baseline and the run with the intake, did all generate the around the 42hp or was this one peak "max gain" figure from one of the runs?
6. If you say that its a real dyno chart in the PDF for the E36, WHY IS IT SOOO POOR QUALITY COMPARED TO THE OTHER IMAGES?? It's impossible to make out ANY numbers, but i guess that is the whole point...
7. If you look closely at the dyno chart for the E36 you can see that on the filter run the power skyrockets out above the chart area just near peak rpm while the baseline dies at the same place, is this where you have your 42hp??
8. Your filter for the E39 (5-series) BMW (with the almost indentical inline 2.5 6cyl engine as in the E36) produces 4hp gains according to this: AFE BMW 525/528 Sales PDF . Does the 4" long 1½" larger diameter pipe and filter that you have for the E36 filter accomodate for the 38hp difference between these 2 of your filters on almost identical BMW 2.5 litre engines?
/Roger
http://www.afefilters.com/5410171.asp
There's a link to the dyno at the bottom of the page. I hope it is helpful. Draw your own conclusions from that. Any response I make would be based on this dyno because that is all I have to go on.
By the way, for all interested observers, I have contacted Jason and I will be providing him with our 350Z kit to test. If there are any other questions you have, I will do my best to answer them.
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Originally Posted by grasshopper
Regarding answering your questions on our BMW products on a 350Z forum, I'm reluctant to do so out of respect for the owners of this forum. As still yet a non-supporting member, I fear I may be overstepping my welcome.
#374
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Originally Posted by grasshopper
Regarding answering your questions on our BMW products on a 350Z forum, I'm reluctant to do so out of respect for the owners of this forum. As still yet a non-supporting member, I fear I may be overstepping my welcome. This discussion is very enlightening and I wouldn't want to be banned.
Originally Posted by grasshopper
If you wish to take the discussion to a BMW forum site, I will follow you there and respond to any questions there as best as I can.
Please answer the questions there.
Originally Posted by grasshopper
In the meantime, I've uploaded a bigger and clearer image of the dyno chart on the E36 system. Here is the link to our BMW E36 kit.
http://www.afefilters.com/5410171.asp
There's a link to the dyno at the bottom of the page. I hope it is helpful. Draw your own conclusions from that. Any response I make would be based on this dyno because that is all I have to go on.
http://www.afefilters.com/5410171.asp
There's a link to the dyno at the bottom of the page. I hope it is helpful. Draw your own conclusions from that. Any response I make would be based on this dyno because that is all I have to go on.
![](https://my350z.com/forum/images/smilies/icon11.gif)
Stock Engine power: 155hp
With Afe Filter: 192hp
Lets continue the discussion in the off topic thread.
Originally Posted by grasshopper
By the way, for all interested observers, I have contacted Jason and I will be providing him with our 350Z kit to test.
/Roger
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BMWs (especially the M cars) are known to be pretty much tuned to the max from the factory. Adding aftermarket parts to these cars yeilds very little gains for a LARGE amount of money spent. In my opnion, the Dinan stuff is a freakin joke. You can spend $5,000 and only gain 17hp...sheesh :-P
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Originally Posted by grasshopper
Q3 Air velocity varies in the tube and the MAF will pick up different air velocity depending on where it is located.
Originally Posted by hfm
Hey ######,
3. Why would moving the MAF sensor closer to filter do
anything?
Q3 Air velocity varies in the tube and the MAF will
pick up different air velocity depending on where it
is located.
https://my350z.com/forum/showthread.php?t=133339
Unless there are bends or turbulence in the piping, I
don't think air velocity will substantially change
between MAF locations. What do you think?
I'd like to post your response and will of course keep
your opinion anonymous if that's okay.
3. Why would moving the MAF sensor closer to filter do
anything?
Q3 Air velocity varies in the tube and the MAF will
pick up different air velocity depending on where it
is located.
https://my350z.com/forum/showthread.php?t=133339
Unless there are bends or turbulence in the piping, I
don't think air velocity will substantially change
between MAF locations. What do you think?
I'd like to post your response and will of course keep
your opinion anonymous if that's okay.
Originally Posted by confidential source
Hey Dan,
I didn't read the whole 19 f-ing pages, but this seems like BS.
The intake can do two possible things off the top of my head:
1. increase the available air by; less restriction (freer flowing,
possible
worse filtration), colder (denser) air by intake location, or possible
ram
air effect when driving.
2. Changing the MAF sensor location can trick the ECU to a different
point
on the map. (leaner and/or more timing will make more hp if you have
the
octane and don't hurt the motor.)
I can't believe that just the intake can make these gains in a fair
test.
This is physics, not magic!
Let me know if there's ever an accurate test with this thing. Their
dyno
graph is a joke too!
How's life going man!? You have time to waste on this stuff??
Hope all is well.
I didn't read the whole 19 f-ing pages, but this seems like BS.
The intake can do two possible things off the top of my head:
1. increase the available air by; less restriction (freer flowing,
possible
worse filtration), colder (denser) air by intake location, or possible
ram
air effect when driving.
2. Changing the MAF sensor location can trick the ECU to a different
point
on the map. (leaner and/or more timing will make more hp if you have
the
octane and don't hurt the motor.)
I can't believe that just the intake can make these gains in a fair
test.
This is physics, not magic!
Let me know if there's ever an accurate test with this thing. Their
dyno
graph is a joke too!
How's life going man!? You have time to waste on this stuff??
Hope all is well.
A few things. First, I'd like to acknowledge that the MAF location can in fact result in increased dyno results. I suppose fuel efficiency will be lost by altering the ECU map but, for some people, including myself, that's an acceptable change.
Second, this maybe moot but, Grasshopper, I'm curious, was the graph SAE corrected?
Third, I'm looking forward to reviews by Jason. I know he will provide us with an accurate test. And, I commend Grasshopper for following up on this approach.
Lastly, I'm asking everyone to please give Grasshopper some slack. Sure, we're not buying the advertised claims. But, AFE is making an effort to demonstrate their kit. They did so with Nissansource, who took a lot of unnecessary guff, and now they're doing so with Jason. Until Jason posts the dynos, there's no need for on-going bashing. We all know what's up but, since AFE is complying with our requests for a true independent dyno, let's wait and see what happens.
Last edited by hfm; 08-20-2005 at 07:07 AM.
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Originally Posted by hfm
I said I'd check this statement out. The response was unexpected.
The source is genuine and confidential and is an individual whose opinion I have absolute confidence when it comes to matters relative to the 350Z.
A few things. First, I'd like to acknowledge that the MAF location can in fact result in increased dyno results. I suppose fuel efficiency will be lost by altering the ECU map but, for some people, including myself, that's an acceptable change.
Second, this maybe moot but, Grasshopper, I'm curious, was the graph SAE corrected?
Third, I'm looking forward to reviews by Jason. I know he will provide us with an accurate test. And, I commend Grasshopper for following up on this approach.
Lastly, I'm asking everyone to please give Grasshopper some slack. Sure, we're not buying the advertised claims. But, AFE is making an effort to demonstrate their kit. They did so with Nissansource, who took a lot of unnecessary guff, and now they're doing so with Jason. Until Jason posts the dynos, there's no need for on-going bashing. We all know what's up but, since AFE is complying with our requests for a true independent dyno, let's wait and see what happens.
The source is genuine and confidential and is an individual whose opinion I have absolute confidence when it comes to matters relative to the 350Z.
A few things. First, I'd like to acknowledge that the MAF location can in fact result in increased dyno results. I suppose fuel efficiency will be lost by altering the ECU map but, for some people, including myself, that's an acceptable change.
Second, this maybe moot but, Grasshopper, I'm curious, was the graph SAE corrected?
Third, I'm looking forward to reviews by Jason. I know he will provide us with an accurate test. And, I commend Grasshopper for following up on this approach.
Lastly, I'm asking everyone to please give Grasshopper some slack. Sure, we're not buying the advertised claims. But, AFE is making an effort to demonstrate their kit. They did so with Nissansource, who took a lot of unnecessary guff, and now they're doing so with Jason. Until Jason posts the dynos, there's no need for on-going bashing. We all know what's up but, since AFE is complying with our requests for a true independent dyno, let's wait and see what happens.
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Originally Posted by grasshopper
Regarding answering your questions on our BMW products on a 350Z forum, I'm reluctant to do so out of respect for the owners of this forum. As still yet a non-supporting member, I fear I may be overstepping my welcome. This discussion is very enlightening and I wouldn't want to be banned. If you wish to take the discussion to a BMW forum site, I will follow you there and respond to any questions there as best as I can. In the meantime, I've uploaded a bigger and clearer image of the dyno chart on the E36 system. Here is the link to our BMW E36 kit.
![](https://my350z.com/forum/images/smilies/icon18.gif)
As someone who is quite experienced in marketing I must say......you are an amateur. If you went to school for this, get your money back. If you are following the advice of senior marketing staff, I recommend your company downsize. Anyone with a brain could have seen this many posts ago. The back-peddling that you have been demonstrating is almost embarrassing for me to read. If you are going to inflate numbers/claims, take small steps grasshopper. Tack on a couple here and there......good lord, you are claiming nearly twice the power of ALL other intake systems available for this vehicle.........doing so, with very foggy evidence.
![](https://my350z.com/forum/images/smilies/icon08.gif)
Constructive criticism...........
The price; well, what can I say here......jesus christ on a crutch........outrageous!
The claims; again, so unbelievable that well, they're not
The marketing; I have seen $38 dollar intake systems on ebay with better/more believable pitches than those from your company.........what's really sad, if you are looking at $/HP.......their intakes made of leftover bulk plumbing supplies are actually a much better deal.
![](https://my350z.com/forum/images/smilies/icon14.gif)
The conclusion; you guys/gals need to regroup. You obviously thought this was going to be an easy sell. Most with 350z's are not 16 year olds with ever-expanding, easily fooled minds. Most of us have been around the block a few times. Most of us have been taken for a few $'s here and there. Just remember, just because it is more expensive doesn't mean its better folks.............last but not least, if your company would like proven independent testing of just about any intake system available for this vehicle, do like any other MEMBER of this forum and use the SEARCH function, or use some of those marketing funds and buy a friggin magazine like the rest of us.
![thinking](https://my350z.com/forum/images/smilies/thinker.gif)
I will retort to your following responses now, just so I won't ever have to come across this thread again...........
grasshopper: I'm sorry you feel this way orion350z
orion350z:I'm not
..........continue; and I use this term loosely; your discussion
Last edited by orion350z; 08-21-2005 at 09:35 PM.
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Originally Posted by orion350z
![](https://my350z.com/forum/images/smilies/icon18.gif)
As someone who is quite experienced in marketing I must say......you are an amateur. If you went to school for this, get your money back. If you are following the advice of senior marketing staff, I recommend your company downsize. Anyone with a brain could have seen this many posts ago. The back-peddling that you have been demonstrating is almost embarrassing for me to read. If you are going to inflate numbers/claims, take small steps grasshopper. Tack on a couple here and there......good lord, you are claiming nearly twice the power of ALL other intake systems available for this vehicle.........doing so, with very foggy evidence.
![](https://my350z.com/forum/images/smilies/icon08.gif)
Constructive criticism...........
The price; well, what can I say here......jesus christ on a crutch........outrageous!
The claims; again, so unbelievable that well, they're not
The marketing; I have seen $38 dollar intake systems on ebay with better/more believable pitches than those from your company.........what's really sad, if you are looking at $/HP.......their intakes made of leftover bulk plumbing supplies are actually a much better deal.
![](https://my350z.com/forum/images/smilies/icon14.gif)
The conclusion; you guys/gals need to regroup. You obviously thought this was going to be an easy sell. Most with 350z's are not 16 year olds with ever-expanding, easily fooled minds. Most of us have been around the block a few times. Most of us have been taken for a few $'s here and there. Just remember, just because it is more expensive doesn't mean its better folks.............last but not least, if your company would like proven independent testing of just about any intake system available for this vehicle, do like any other MEMBER of this forum and use the SEARCH function, or use some of those marketing funds and buy a friggin magazine like the rest of us.
![thinking](https://my350z.com/forum/images/smilies/thinker.gif)
![Stick Out Tongue](https://my350z.com/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif)