Independent Crawford Plenum Review & Dyno
Registered User
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From: Maryland
Re: Re: I think is a good thing..
Originally posted by randyshemin@comcast.
And by the way, whose idea was the reworked plenum? Who was first, and possibly still best? Not sure you can base your conclusions on this thread considering all the questions raised.
And by the way, whose idea was the reworked plenum? Who was first, and possibly still best? Not sure you can base your conclusions on this thread considering all the questions raised.
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2002
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From: NOR - CAL
well put MPH as usual, I am keeping in mind it's a N/A Plenum and seems to have done quite well, the originator of the idea (Doug) has a plenum proven to work with N20 and FI well, not just N/A.
I am intentionally staying out of All_Barks Dyno thread out of respect and to avoid more cat fights and the thread is going smoothly. If others treated my Crawford Owner Dyno Poll thread the same way it would be nice wouldn't it? Nice and peaceful?
I look at it this way, why does the plenum work? It's like the LS1 Vs the LS6 Manifold (plenum as it is callled here) it is higher in height , flows more air and in the end makes more power.
I can make a grounding kit show a 6hp gain on a Dyno if I want to, the people who have been around here long enough and know cars know this is 100 % true. I can also make it dyno zero gains, you know what I am saying?
In the end it comes down to our stock plenums are not ideal, Doug discovered this and is on his 5th revision and now we have a new one (N/A only for now I assume.) Only the Internet could turn this competition to lower prices into a bad thing. Well I shouldn't say that, it's just the shear velocity of people here.
Anytime you place hundreds of people in one room whether it be real person to person or cyber text like this you are gonna have this scenario of , this one is right and that one is wrong (or you could use better / worse.)
Bottom line, the plenum needed reworking from it's stock form. Doug did it and during the promotion, selling, and CUSTOMER SUPPORT via phone calls I really grew to like him, he is a very nice man with very good customer relation skills and in my opinion makes a great product that works accross all platforms. There is room on this forum for more than one plenum just as there is room for more than one FI or N20 kit or headers etc etc.
Right now there is only one plenum that is proven to work across all 3 platforms and that is the Craword. I have no interest in an N/A plenum but I am quite sure hundreds do, I will readdress the issue when a proven Kinetix FI plenum is out and give it a fair look, I honestly will to put back on my STB. It's gonna be tough to have it stay perfect in A/F like my Crawford and retain the stock STB and I am sure LSDU knows this, but I am interested and intrigued. I wait for the FI version because I have an FI car.
I am not biased or brand loyal I think after 14 months here people know I say what I feel sometimes much to others disliking but that is just how I am and won't change I am almost 40 years old.
Till the FI Plenum comes out perhaps we can start over with civility towards one another and post here in peace, I am willing to do so as long as I am not bashed, I dislike that, people know it so why do it?
I am intentionally staying out of All_Barks Dyno thread out of respect and to avoid more cat fights and the thread is going smoothly. If others treated my Crawford Owner Dyno Poll thread the same way it would be nice wouldn't it? Nice and peaceful?
I look at it this way, why does the plenum work? It's like the LS1 Vs the LS6 Manifold (plenum as it is callled here) it is higher in height , flows more air and in the end makes more power.
I can make a grounding kit show a 6hp gain on a Dyno if I want to, the people who have been around here long enough and know cars know this is 100 % true. I can also make it dyno zero gains, you know what I am saying?
In the end it comes down to our stock plenums are not ideal, Doug discovered this and is on his 5th revision and now we have a new one (N/A only for now I assume.) Only the Internet could turn this competition to lower prices into a bad thing. Well I shouldn't say that, it's just the shear velocity of people here.
Anytime you place hundreds of people in one room whether it be real person to person or cyber text like this you are gonna have this scenario of , this one is right and that one is wrong (or you could use better / worse.)
Bottom line, the plenum needed reworking from it's stock form. Doug did it and during the promotion, selling, and CUSTOMER SUPPORT via phone calls I really grew to like him, he is a very nice man with very good customer relation skills and in my opinion makes a great product that works accross all platforms. There is room on this forum for more than one plenum just as there is room for more than one FI or N20 kit or headers etc etc.
Right now there is only one plenum that is proven to work across all 3 platforms and that is the Craword. I have no interest in an N/A plenum but I am quite sure hundreds do, I will readdress the issue when a proven Kinetix FI plenum is out and give it a fair look, I honestly will to put back on my STB. It's gonna be tough to have it stay perfect in A/F like my Crawford and retain the stock STB and I am sure LSDU knows this, but I am interested and intrigued. I wait for the FI version because I have an FI car.
I am not biased or brand loyal I think after 14 months here people know I say what I feel sometimes much to others disliking but that is just how I am and won't change I am almost 40 years old.
Till the FI Plenum comes out perhaps we can start over with civility towards one another and post here in peace, I am willing to do so as long as I am not bashed, I dislike that, people know it so why do it?
Last edited by 12SecZ; Feb 10, 2004 at 03:52 AM.
Z Flier
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 650
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From: VA - USA
Originally posted by zxsaint
HFM was critical of the product, but that doesn't make him responsible for providing ANY information -- that's the responsibility of a company thats making claims and selling a product.
HFM was critical of the product, but that doesn't make him responsible for providing ANY information -- that's the responsibility of a company thats making claims and selling a product.
Sorry, when you go around like he did.. you paint a big target on your own back. He's in effect calling Andy and Chris liars by not believing their dynos. Every question has been asked, and answered, yet its not enough for him.
He made it his personal mission to 'validate' the results somewhere besides people associated with Crawford. That's ok... but you can't **** on everyone and expect to not get the same sort of scrutiny on yourself. You reap what you sow.
Originally posted by zxsaint
What's the point of doing it on a stock setup, when the guy whos in the market for one of these is probably going to get other mods as well?
What's the point of doing it on a stock setup, when the guy whos in the market for one of these is probably going to get other mods as well?
I appreciate the effort put in to gather yet more data for the community. I just don't want to see this as 'proof' that the Crawford numbers are inaccurate.
To me, its just another set of dynos about the products on the market. Which is a GOOD thing. But its not conclusive or not to disprove Crawford's published claims. That's all I'm saying.
Fairlady Stalker
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,860
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From: Studio City, CA
Originally posted by flynnibus
Crawford has provided information.
Crawford has provided information.
That's ok... but you can't **** on everyone and expect to not get the same sort of scrutiny on yourself. You reap what you sow.
for the Z evolve with accuracy. This is why I organized a discounted dyno day with nothing to gain but more data.
I appreciate the effort put in to gather yet more data for the community.
To me, its just another set of dynos about the products on the market. Which is a GOOD thing. But its not conclusive or not to disprove Crawford's published claims. That's all I'm saying.
Last edited by zxsaint; Feb 10, 2004 at 10:02 AM.
Z Flier
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 650
Likes: 0
From: VA - USA
Originally posted by zxsaint
So has borla, aem, and the company that made the tornado. The idea is that it really helps to have others not affiliated show hard data that matches the advertised results.
So has borla, aem, and the company that made the tornado. The idea is that it really helps to have others not affiliated show hard data that matches the advertised results.
Originally posted by zxsaint
I don't see how I could have pissed on anyone.
I don't see how I could have pissed on anyone.
I whole heartedly agree with the value of indepedent testing. I just think in this one case hfm dug a hole, made a stand, and when it came to pull himself out, he just did himself more harm.
The take away from this whole event is:
1) The guys in socal were awesome in pulling together disconjunt resources to make this happen
2) VandyZ was nice enough to 'put his money where his mouth is' and ship out his plenum
3) The community and vendors can work together good or bad and let the info be public. That's the cool thing here.. that alot of the vendors embrace the oinline community enough to allow this to be an effective way to share information.. and not just marketing!
4) We have another set of dynos and benchmarks to compare against.
5) There isn't additional info here to believe or disbelieve Crawford's claims.
My personal stance is that I'm sure the product performs. Does it put out exactly XYZ? Probably not. But every car is different, and the end result is always a combination of unique results, making any such claims an 'average' or YMMV claim anyways.
I like the new crawford design because it can finally be visually and effectivly a gain now. The kenetix plenum looks interesting as well, for the obvious reasons.. but I'm certianly not going to be a rev1 customer
Plus, my poor Z gets a very limited mod budget. Someone convinced me along time ago that my family needs toys before I do
Originally posted by flynnibus
Crawford has provided information.
Sorry, when you go around like he did.. you paint a big target on your own back. He's in effect calling Andy and Chris liars by not believing their dynos. Every question has been asked, and answered, yet its not enough for him.
You are incapable of ignoring me or what is on this thread. That's evident from your continuing posts. I personally think you just enjoy flame wars.
Somehow, as you said above, you have made this about you. This thread has nothing to do with you. Nevertheless, you're continuing to make a claim that I have somehow done Crawford wrong to continue the argument.
From the moment I told you to shut the hell up if you're not going to do something constructive other than to attack me for posting results, you've done nothing but continue the attack. I think you've made this about you because you can't stand being told to shut the hell up. The idea that someone can tell you off is unacceptable to you. And, you are never, ever wrong. You will never apologize, never surrender a point and never, ever will you allow yourself to be embarrassed over an point. Yes, you've made this thread that has absolutely nothing to do with you, all about you. And, you will continue to attack me until you convince yourself that you've proven yourself. I told you before that you've lost it. Now I suggest you get over it.
That said, I've never called Andy a liar. As for Chris, well I'm not going to stoop to the same type of personal attack he imposed upon me.
You have equated not believing a manufacturer's test claims as calling them liars. I don't know what kind of twisted logic you're used to but if you want to believe the claim of manufacturers at face value, then you're a walking example of what's born every minute. Not accepting a manufacturer's claim and looking for independent results is not calling the manufacturer a liar. And, if you can't understand that concept, then I look forward to your next post.
made it his personal mission to 'validate' the results somewhere besides people associated with Crawford. That's ok... but you can't **** on everyone and expect to not get the same sort of scrutiny on yourself. You reap what you sow.
All I wanted was an independent dyno. What I got were personal attacks left and right by the usual battery of Crawford nuts that would believe the Crawford plenum is a portable rocket attachment for the Z if that's what they said. Just go up to this thread and count the number of personal insults I've received since posting.
Tell you what, if you think I've pissed on Crawford and deserve the assault, I challenge you to find as many comments where I have pissed on Crawford as to the number of times where some yahoo or another has something bad to say about me because god forbid, I asked for proof of Crawford's claims.
You can't say anything critical of Crawford. If you do, you better have a lot of friends on the forum, be able to ably defend yourself, be prepared to respond to scores of negative responses and deal with a world of crap that will be flung in your direction because you don't salute the Crawford flag. I say screw that fascist ********.
Because that is the existing set of data out there that hfm refuses to accept? There are dynos out there with other mods, just lots of mods. There wasn't anything besides from Andy and Chris that was stock, or close to stock.
You want to believe those dyno results, fine. But, I'll be damned before I let someone who has done no testing and nothing but post the dogma of their obviously correct opinions, convince me that the Crawford dynos are biblical as an authority.
I whole heartedly agree with the value of indepedent testing. I just think in this one case hfm dug a hole, made a stand, and when it came to pull himself out, he just did himself more harm.
I think I said it somewhere else, I really don't give a damn what you think. Frankly, you would do both of us a favor if you starting feeling the same way about what I think so that we can end this stupid flamefest.
But, you just can't do that, can you? So, I anticipate your response.
Crawford has provided information.
Sorry, when you go around like he did.. you paint a big target on your own back. He's in effect calling Andy and Chris liars by not believing their dynos. Every question has been asked, and answered, yet its not enough for him.
You are incapable of ignoring me or what is on this thread. That's evident from your continuing posts. I personally think you just enjoy flame wars.
Somehow, as you said above, you have made this about you. This thread has nothing to do with you. Nevertheless, you're continuing to make a claim that I have somehow done Crawford wrong to continue the argument.
From the moment I told you to shut the hell up if you're not going to do something constructive other than to attack me for posting results, you've done nothing but continue the attack. I think you've made this about you because you can't stand being told to shut the hell up. The idea that someone can tell you off is unacceptable to you. And, you are never, ever wrong. You will never apologize, never surrender a point and never, ever will you allow yourself to be embarrassed over an point. Yes, you've made this thread that has absolutely nothing to do with you, all about you. And, you will continue to attack me until you convince yourself that you've proven yourself. I told you before that you've lost it. Now I suggest you get over it.
That said, I've never called Andy a liar. As for Chris, well I'm not going to stoop to the same type of personal attack he imposed upon me.
You have equated not believing a manufacturer's test claims as calling them liars. I don't know what kind of twisted logic you're used to but if you want to believe the claim of manufacturers at face value, then you're a walking example of what's born every minute. Not accepting a manufacturer's claim and looking for independent results is not calling the manufacturer a liar. And, if you can't understand that concept, then I look forward to your next post.
made it his personal mission to 'validate' the results somewhere besides people associated with Crawford. That's ok... but you can't **** on everyone and expect to not get the same sort of scrutiny on yourself. You reap what you sow.
All I wanted was an independent dyno. What I got were personal attacks left and right by the usual battery of Crawford nuts that would believe the Crawford plenum is a portable rocket attachment for the Z if that's what they said. Just go up to this thread and count the number of personal insults I've received since posting.
Tell you what, if you think I've pissed on Crawford and deserve the assault, I challenge you to find as many comments where I have pissed on Crawford as to the number of times where some yahoo or another has something bad to say about me because god forbid, I asked for proof of Crawford's claims.
You can't say anything critical of Crawford. If you do, you better have a lot of friends on the forum, be able to ably defend yourself, be prepared to respond to scores of negative responses and deal with a world of crap that will be flung in your direction because you don't salute the Crawford flag. I say screw that fascist ********.
Because that is the existing set of data out there that hfm refuses to accept? There are dynos out there with other mods, just lots of mods. There wasn't anything besides from Andy and Chris that was stock, or close to stock.
You want to believe those dyno results, fine. But, I'll be damned before I let someone who has done no testing and nothing but post the dogma of their obviously correct opinions, convince me that the Crawford dynos are biblical as an authority.
I whole heartedly agree with the value of indepedent testing. I just think in this one case hfm dug a hole, made a stand, and when it came to pull himself out, he just did himself more harm.
I think I said it somewhere else, I really don't give a damn what you think. Frankly, you would do both of us a favor if you starting feeling the same way about what I think so that we can end this stupid flamefest.
But, you just can't do that, can you? So, I anticipate your response.
Originally posted by jooklum99
HFM thanks for your time. I agree that your results are not laboratory, but who cares? Thanks for taking the time and $$$ to do this for us...the ungrateful lot that we are!
M
HFM thanks for your time. I agree that your results are not laboratory, but who cares? Thanks for taking the time and $$$ to do this for us...the ungrateful lot that we are!
M
Re: I think is a good thing..
Originally posted by AmyCroft
HFM has done his best to provide a Crawford Plenum to those who want to make thier own tests.
I guess the point of testing the Crawford is Mute now that the New Plastic Plenums have arived and shown good power.
But I believe that HFM has done the best possible to sort out Fact from Fiction.
Thanks HFM for contributing to the My350Z Community, and those viewers who may have spent thier money without any real independent tests of this product.
You folks have seen the products, and those are not the same quality of Japanese tuners. But the fact that a fellow can be succesfull in selling an aftermarket product to many people. And actually bring income to his group with out any real facts is quite amazing. Sort of like Lentronics Z Video... Lot's of hype and no real help.
Cheers Amy -
HFM has done his best to provide a Crawford Plenum to those who want to make thier own tests.
I guess the point of testing the Crawford is Mute now that the New Plastic Plenums have arived and shown good power.
But I believe that HFM has done the best possible to sort out Fact from Fiction.
Thanks HFM for contributing to the My350Z Community, and those viewers who may have spent thier money without any real independent tests of this product.
You folks have seen the products, and those are not the same quality of Japanese tuners. But the fact that a fellow can be succesfull in selling an aftermarket product to many people. And actually bring income to his group with out any real facts is quite amazing. Sort of like Lentronics Z Video... Lot's of hype and no real help.
Cheers Amy
-
I had an opportunity to speak with ZxSaint regarding his conversation with Doug. I will defer the details of the conversation to Saint since this was a private conversation between the two of them.
However, Saint has convinced me that there maybe some problems with the accuracy of the dyno due to one of Saint's mods and based upon what Doug has experienced at the shop with the same mod.
How much of a difference remains unknown until the particular mod is tested as opposed to stock form. In the meanwhile, I thought it only fair to say that the accuracy of the dyno maybe slightly suspect.
Neverthess, it remains raw data that people may view as they see fit until further tests can be done.
However, Saint has convinced me that there maybe some problems with the accuracy of the dyno due to one of Saint's mods and based upon what Doug has experienced at the shop with the same mod.
How much of a difference remains unknown until the particular mod is tested as opposed to stock form. In the meanwhile, I thought it only fair to say that the accuracy of the dyno maybe slightly suspect.
Neverthess, it remains raw data that people may view as they see fit until further tests can be done.
Registered User
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,023
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From: Central Jersey
HFM -
I know Amy was supporting you, but her premise is blatantly false. You'd do better NOT to associate with people who are taking swipes at Crawford if you would like Crawford people not to take swipes at you. That's the essence of independant. Sucks.
Dan
I know Amy was supporting you, but her premise is blatantly false. You'd do better NOT to associate with people who are taking swipes at Crawford if you would like Crawford people not to take swipes at you. That's the essence of independant. Sucks.
Dan
Z Flier
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 650
Likes: 0
From: VA - USA
Originally posted by hfm
You are incapable of ignoring me or what is on this thread
You are incapable of ignoring me or what is on this thread
Originally posted by hfm
Somehow, as you said above, you have made this about you
Somehow, as you said above, you have made this about you
Originally posted by hfm
Nevertheless, you're continuing to make a claim that I have somehow done Crawford wrong to continue the argument
Nevertheless, you're continuing to make a claim that I have somehow done Crawford wrong to continue the argument
Originally posted by hfm
From the moment I told you to shut the hell up...
From the moment I told you to shut the hell up...
Originally posted by hfm
That said, I've never called Andy a liar
That said, I've never called Andy a liar
Do I believe that if Andy got 17 peak horsepower on his dyno that I will get 17 peak horsepower? No. Is that because I don't believe Andy's results, or because he donated his car as a test bed? No, its because I don't believe a mod is good for X power on every car. Do I believe their dynos aren't biased? No. I'm sure there are some details that weren't offered up initially, or something else that may have gone 'best not said', but it certainly doesn't mean I don't believe his car got what they showed. Also going in their favor is the willingness to discuss the said results. If they didn't want to talk details, then I'd be more suspicious.
Originally posted by hfm
Not accepting a manufacturer's claim and looking for independent results is not calling the manufacturer a liar. And, if you can't understand that concept, then I look forward to your next post.
Not accepting a manufacturer's claim and looking for independent results is not calling the manufacturer a liar. And, if you can't understand that concept, then I look forward to your next post.
Originally posted by hfm
Tell you what, if you think I've pissed on Crawford and deserve the assault, I challenge you to find as many comments where I have pissed on Crawford as to the number of times where some yahoo or another has something bad to say about me because god forbid, I asked for proof of Crawford's claims.
Tell you what, if you think I've pissed on Crawford and deserve the assault, I challenge you to find as many comments where I have pissed on Crawford as to the number of times where some yahoo or another has something bad to say about me because god forbid, I asked for proof of Crawford's claims.
Originally posted by hfm
You can't say anything critical of Crawford. If you do, you better have a lot of friends on the forum, be able to ably defend yourself, be prepared to respond to scores of negative responses and deal with a world of crap that will be flung in your direction because you don't salute the Crawford flag. I say screw that fascist ********.
You can't say anything critical of Crawford. If you do, you better have a lot of friends on the forum, be able to ably defend yourself, be prepared to respond to scores of negative responses and deal with a world of crap that will be flung in your direction because you don't salute the Crawford flag. I say screw that fascist ********.
NJ Jerk
Originally posted by 350zdanny
HFM -
I know Amy was supporting you, but her premise is blatantly false. You'd do better NOT to associate with people who are taking swipes at Crawford if you would like Crawford people not to take swipes at you. That's the essence of independant. Sucks.
Dan
HFM -
I know Amy was supporting you, but her premise is blatantly false. You'd do better NOT to associate with people who are taking swipes at Crawford if you would like Crawford people not to take swipes at you. That's the essence of independant. Sucks.
Dan
Originally posted by flynnibus
Stop posting falsehoods and you will not get a reply.
I see, now I'm posting falsehoods. Right.
So, if I said something true, you would finally shut up? What would you like me to say to make you quiet?
No.. you brought up personal stuff with your very first reply to me. I've never brought my ideas into any of this.
Page 3. https://my350z.com/forum/showthread....0&pagenumber=3
ZxSaint comments on the Crawford crew taking things to far. You start off by stating that I am the one to whom the crew is making their response. Then you allege that I hijack threads, make a stink all over the board, that I stomp around the forum, singing a song and do nothing but criticize my post, belittle the time and effort I spent on an event I didn't ask to do, and then imply that I'm cheap. You label me and you attack me personally.
No. You started the personal stuff. And, when I get personal back, you can't take what you dish out.
I never said such a thing. I said it would be wrong for you to claim these findings as invalidation of Crawford's claims.
Listen, after 28 or 30 or however number runs Crawford did, I wouldn't be surprised if they somehow managed to find 20 hp. Do I believe that's what's going to happen everytime I turn over the engine. No.
You think I'm wrong for saying that? Well, how many times do I have to say, I really don't care?
Yes.. I find that most amusing. That's quite a persausive method you have there. I get a good chuckle every time you resort to that. It shows your depth.
Sometimes the truth hurts, doesn't it? Oh, that's right, I resort to falsehoods. I'm a liar. I'm the one who was personal first. So, how could I be right about this either?
You just keep posting away, not because of what I said, but because...well, why don't you tell us?
Using those words.. not here. But what do you call it when someone says 'this is fact' and you don't believe them? You can ask them any question about any variable, yet you refuse to accept his claims. So please, explain.. if you can't accept what Andy says as truth, what do you consider the things he is saying to be?
Do I believe that if Andy got 17 peak horsepower on his dyno that I will get 17 peak horsepower? No. Is that because I don't believe Andy's results, or because he donated his car as a test bed? No, its because I don't believe a mod is good for X power on every car. Do I believe their dynos aren't biased? No. I'm sure there are some details that weren't offered up initially, or something else that may have gone 'best not said', but it certainly doesn't mean I don't believe his car got what they showed. Also going in their favor is the willingness to discuss the said results. If they didn't want to talk details, then I'd be more suspicious."
You again started this by claiming I called or am calling Adam a liar. I never called Adam a liar. And, I'm not going to go down this road arguing with you about something that again, has nothing to do with this thread. This thread is about an independent dyno. It is not about whether or not Crawford, Adam, Doug or anyone else is a liar. You obviously want to make it into that, but I'm not going to let you.
This isn't a random website.. this isn't about taking a piece of paper and believing it on face value... this is real people you are talking to on the other side. Have a question? Ask them, they'll answer it. Maybe if you had interacted with these people BEFORE they worked with Doug like many of us here have.. maybe you'd see differently.
I have actually come to like Adam. Chris I think is, just what he calls himself, a Crawford pimp. I don't like him at all. Doug, comes across as a very nice guy. If you've worked with Doug and you like him, that really is nice.
But, how these guys treat customers, how nice they are, has nothing to do with the performance of the plenum.
Yeah.. all this would have happened if all you did was just asked for other proof.
I'm only talking to you since you wont let this drop.
I just posted above I don't believe it makes XYZ power (XYZ because I don't feel like pulling up their specific quote). I didn't get jumped on. I don't have 'friends' in this forum. Maybe if you went on more substance then flame you wouldn't have such an issue?
You really can't see how Crawford's fans, I'm not talking about Vandy or Doug, but Chris, and everyone else on this thread who has attacked me, have a routine and habit to attack anyone who doesn't say Crawford products rock? Actually, let me correct that, Chris hasn't said anything here. Probably at Adam or Doug's request. And, I do genuinely appreciate not having to deal with opening up another front on this thread. If you can't see it, you not flying in a bus, you're flying blind.
Whatever man.
You want to keep this discussion open, fine. Just recognize, I started the thread and am responding to you. You are keeping the flames up.
What's would you like me to say to drop this? Or, shall we go on? It's all good by me.
Stop posting falsehoods and you will not get a reply.
I see, now I'm posting falsehoods. Right.
So, if I said something true, you would finally shut up? What would you like me to say to make you quiet?
No.. you brought up personal stuff with your very first reply to me. I've never brought my ideas into any of this.
Page 3. https://my350z.com/forum/showthread....0&pagenumber=3
ZxSaint comments on the Crawford crew taking things to far. You start off by stating that I am the one to whom the crew is making their response. Then you allege that I hijack threads, make a stink all over the board, that I stomp around the forum, singing a song and do nothing but criticize my post, belittle the time and effort I spent on an event I didn't ask to do, and then imply that I'm cheap. You label me and you attack me personally.
No. You started the personal stuff. And, when I get personal back, you can't take what you dish out.
I never said such a thing. I said it would be wrong for you to claim these findings as invalidation of Crawford's claims.
Listen, after 28 or 30 or however number runs Crawford did, I wouldn't be surprised if they somehow managed to find 20 hp. Do I believe that's what's going to happen everytime I turn over the engine. No.
You think I'm wrong for saying that? Well, how many times do I have to say, I really don't care?
Yes.. I find that most amusing. That's quite a persausive method you have there. I get a good chuckle every time you resort to that. It shows your depth.
Sometimes the truth hurts, doesn't it? Oh, that's right, I resort to falsehoods. I'm a liar. I'm the one who was personal first. So, how could I be right about this either?
You just keep posting away, not because of what I said, but because...well, why don't you tell us?
Using those words.. not here. But what do you call it when someone says 'this is fact' and you don't believe them? You can ask them any question about any variable, yet you refuse to accept his claims. So please, explain.. if you can't accept what Andy says as truth, what do you consider the things he is saying to be?
Do I believe that if Andy got 17 peak horsepower on his dyno that I will get 17 peak horsepower? No. Is that because I don't believe Andy's results, or because he donated his car as a test bed? No, its because I don't believe a mod is good for X power on every car. Do I believe their dynos aren't biased? No. I'm sure there are some details that weren't offered up initially, or something else that may have gone 'best not said', but it certainly doesn't mean I don't believe his car got what they showed. Also going in their favor is the willingness to discuss the said results. If they didn't want to talk details, then I'd be more suspicious."
You again started this by claiming I called or am calling Adam a liar. I never called Adam a liar. And, I'm not going to go down this road arguing with you about something that again, has nothing to do with this thread. This thread is about an independent dyno. It is not about whether or not Crawford, Adam, Doug or anyone else is a liar. You obviously want to make it into that, but I'm not going to let you.
This isn't a random website.. this isn't about taking a piece of paper and believing it on face value... this is real people you are talking to on the other side. Have a question? Ask them, they'll answer it. Maybe if you had interacted with these people BEFORE they worked with Doug like many of us here have.. maybe you'd see differently.
I have actually come to like Adam. Chris I think is, just what he calls himself, a Crawford pimp. I don't like him at all. Doug, comes across as a very nice guy. If you've worked with Doug and you like him, that really is nice.
But, how these guys treat customers, how nice they are, has nothing to do with the performance of the plenum.
Yeah.. all this would have happened if all you did was just asked for other proof.
I'm only talking to you since you wont let this drop.
I just posted above I don't believe it makes XYZ power (XYZ because I don't feel like pulling up their specific quote). I didn't get jumped on. I don't have 'friends' in this forum. Maybe if you went on more substance then flame you wouldn't have such an issue?
You really can't see how Crawford's fans, I'm not talking about Vandy or Doug, but Chris, and everyone else on this thread who has attacked me, have a routine and habit to attack anyone who doesn't say Crawford products rock? Actually, let me correct that, Chris hasn't said anything here. Probably at Adam or Doug's request. And, I do genuinely appreciate not having to deal with opening up another front on this thread. If you can't see it, you not flying in a bus, you're flying blind.
Whatever man.
You want to keep this discussion open, fine. Just recognize, I started the thread and am responding to you. You are keeping the flames up.
What's would you like me to say to drop this? Or, shall we go on? It's all good by me.
Last edited by hfm; Feb 10, 2004 at 09:42 PM.
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 107
Likes: 2
From: md
Let me first start off by saying I have the plenum. I like it. Doug's a great guy and his service is awesome. Does the plenum make power? I think so, but if it didn't who cares, it's a little too late now.
I've learned a lot from people on this forum, especially the ones that do all the work and post on a regular basis. I've even PM'ed a lot of you and have gotten a lot of good advice. I've based most of my mods on the research I've gathered on this forum, and for that I thank you guys.
With that being said, all this fighting and bickering makes you guys look like a bunch of car dorks whose lives revolve around making a whopping "7-10HP". If you want the plenum, read all the reviews on it and get one. If you're skeptical, then don't get one. But my gosh, we're going on 9 pages worth of argument over a $500 piece of metal, get a life. Just my .02 cents, take it for what it's worth.
I've learned a lot from people on this forum, especially the ones that do all the work and post on a regular basis. I've even PM'ed a lot of you and have gotten a lot of good advice. I've based most of my mods on the research I've gathered on this forum, and for that I thank you guys.
With that being said, all this fighting and bickering makes you guys look like a bunch of car dorks whose lives revolve around making a whopping "7-10HP". If you want the plenum, read all the reviews on it and get one. If you're skeptical, then don't get one. But my gosh, we're going on 9 pages worth of argument over a $500 piece of metal, get a life. Just my .02 cents, take it for what it's worth.
Last edited by brgerflipr; Feb 10, 2004 at 09:57 PM.
Originally posted by brgerflipr
Let me first start off by saying I have the plenum. I like it. Doug's a great guy and his service is awesome. Does the plenum make power? I think so, but if it didn't who cares, it's a little too late now.
I've learned a lot from people on this forum, especially the ones that do all the work and post on a regular basis. I've even PM'ed a lot of you and have gotten a lot of good advice. I've based most of my mods on the research I've gathered on this forum, and for that I thank you guys.
With that being said, all this fighting and bickering makes you guys look like a bunch of car dorks whose lives revolve around making a whopping "7-10HP". If you want the plenum, read all the reviews on it and get one. If you're skeptical, then don't get one. But my gosh, we're going on 9 pages worth of argument over a $500 piece of metal, get a life. Just my .02 cents, take it for what it's worth.
Let me first start off by saying I have the plenum. I like it. Doug's a great guy and his service is awesome. Does the plenum make power? I think so, but if it didn't who cares, it's a little too late now.
I've learned a lot from people on this forum, especially the ones that do all the work and post on a regular basis. I've even PM'ed a lot of you and have gotten a lot of good advice. I've based most of my mods on the research I've gathered on this forum, and for that I thank you guys.
With that being said, all this fighting and bickering makes you guys look like a bunch of car dorks whose lives revolve around making a whopping "7-10HP". If you want the plenum, read all the reviews on it and get one. If you're skeptical, then don't get one. But my gosh, we're going on 9 pages worth of argument over a $500 piece of metal, get a life. Just my .02 cents, take it for what it's worth.
Exspected Increase.
Originally posted by brgerflipr
Let me first start off by saying I have the plenum. I like it. Doug's a great guy and his service is awesome. Does the plenum make power? I think so, but if it didn't who cares, it's a little too late now.
I've learned a lot from people on this forum, especially the ones that do all the work and post on a regular basis. I've even PM'ed a lot of you and have gotten a lot of good advice. I've based most of my mods on the research I've gathered on this forum, and for that I thank you guys.
With that being said, all this fighting and bickering makes you guys look like a bunch of car dorks whose lives revolve around making a whopping "7-10HP". If you want the plenum, read all the reviews on it and get one. If you're skeptical, then don't get one. But my gosh, we're going on 9 pages worth of argument over a $500 piece of metal, get a life. Just my .02 cents, take it for what it's worth.
Let me first start off by saying I have the plenum. I like it. Doug's a great guy and his service is awesome. Does the plenum make power? I think so, but if it didn't who cares, it's a little too late now.
I've learned a lot from people on this forum, especially the ones that do all the work and post on a regular basis. I've even PM'ed a lot of you and have gotten a lot of good advice. I've based most of my mods on the research I've gathered on this forum, and for that I thank you guys.
With that being said, all this fighting and bickering makes you guys look like a bunch of car dorks whose lives revolve around making a whopping "7-10HP". If you want the plenum, read all the reviews on it and get one. If you're skeptical, then don't get one. But my gosh, we're going on 9 pages worth of argument over a $500 piece of metal, get a life. Just my .02 cents, take it for what it's worth.
somebody needs to put this thread out of its misery...bottom line is hfm posted up some dyno numbers and did the best job that he could in getting some information on the crawford plenum...may not be what everyone was expecting but oh well, take it for what it is...also, brgerflipr well said man
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Joined: Dec 2002
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From: Maryland
I have a question, does anybody except the person who wrote it actually read the really long argument posts? I just skip over all that crap. Why don't you guys save your keyboards some? I think only one or two of you actually read through it all. No one is listening! 