So I'm digging around on the pop-charger topic.

The 6.5hp number seems to have come from http://www.nissanperformancemag.com

Magazines... we'll everyone has their own opinions there. But what I find even more enlightening is.. the pop-charger gains are just like the plenum.. at the top end only. Why is it acceptable to dis-allow the plenum's gains because 'you'll only get those for a split second' but the pop-charger is free from such scrutiny?

The answer is simple.. because its a one sided arguement from a biased individual.

 

 

 

Your very first post explains that you are a loyal Crawford man. Your sixth post calls me a dick head. I don't think I really have much to say to you except, enjoy your Crawford products bub.

 

Randy, that was pretty funny.

 

I don't think I really disagree about the stock comparison. That would really have been best. And, thanks for your post.

 

Thank you for your post. It's a very welcome read when having to wade through unfriendly posts.

 

A lot of the crap that's come out over the past few pages I have brought on myself by simply not standing for bull. Some places I definitely could have handled responses with more tact. I chose not to and I have no regrets.

There are Crawford loyalists who will rise up in arms for their beloved products. They are entitled to do so and Crawford is obviously doing something right to generate such fierce loyalty. It must clearly be with the way they treat and work with their customers. I've never said anything badly towards Doug that I can recall, I've developed considerable respect for Vandy and the way he has handled my critical posts.

The bottom line for this test is that it is independent data. It's not the best. It better than from the selling horse's mouth. And, if you choose to agree or disagree with it, that is entirely up to you.

Thank you for all the responses, positive or negative.

 

Amazing. Either some of you aren't reading the thread or are just plain idiots.

Just because the guy wanted to see an ind. stock dyno, doesn't mean he's solely responsible for arranging it.

Again, to clairfy (although some dolt will probably skip this before posting):

Vandy Z sent the plenum for HFM to test out, try out, see what he thinks PERSONALLY (modded or not). I think that was very professional of the Crawford team, but how does this make HFM the point person to arrange a detailed testing of this product with absolutely nothing to gain (but harassment). He doesn't owe anyone anything, but he's free to state his opinion.

HFM was critical of the product, but that doesn't make him responsible for providing ANY information -- that's the responsibility of a company thats making claims and selling a product.

Posting this dyno will hopefully help others make the right choice for their setup. What's the point of doing it on a stock setup, when the guy whos in the market for one of these is probably going to get other mods as well? Who *just* gets a plenum and is done? Spending $400 on a pulley and test pipes will make a lot more power.

12secZ, I really think your personal attacks don't belong here and should be taken offline.

 

I think you're being a little unfair too. HFM was openly critical of the fact that nobody had a before/after dyno. It seems that he stepped on alot of toes in the process. Ofcousre it makes him the point man to set up a dyno when Vandy provides him with a free product.

Alot of people might think he didn't put up when the time came. Can't do anything about that now. It was good of you guys to do the dynos, but HFM didn't make it easy on you.

As far as the pulleys and test pipes, you may be right, but there are penalties for those that you don't list as well. The crank pulley does not work well with FI applications, and the test pipes emit raspy sounds, or putrid smells, or both.

That's where I think you guys are not being fair. You did do the dyno work, and that's great, but you are pointing out all the faults with the Crawford piece, and now offering up an alternative that you say will make alot more power (not proven), but you don't offer up that there are drawbacks to those parts as well.

An independant dyno is supposed to compare the mod to the stock piece, not the mod to a JWT pop charger and a crank pulley or a set of test pipes and a crank pulley.

My opinion. Flame away if you choose. But don't label me a Crawford supporter or loyalist because I'm challenging what you say.

Dan

 

Danny, you're making an excellent point here. Should this be stock v stock w/plenum or something else? Well, we don't have stock v stock w/plenum. We have mod v mod w/plenum. Saint's point that someone who has the plenum will likely have other mods makes a whole lot of sense.

As for comparing other products, consider this. Gains of 0-4 hp/8-10 at 6,300 to redline makes this product useful when you plan on racing and expect to be at 6,300 + rpm. Other products that are cheaper and have simlar gains throughtout the powerband are more useful for virtually all other instances.

Is the plenum useful if you plan to go to the drag strip. I would absolutely have to say, yes.

 

Wasn't free... just a evaluation product that he has to send back asap. As far as I know, Vandy sent it to get HFM to try it in hopes to convert him. Tho I may be wrong as I don't know the exact terms.

It's difficult for him to get a stranger to give up his stock Z to test a part he's not going to keep. This is something the manuf. can easily do by providing a discounted plenum to a stock Z owner in return for the dyno (alternatively paying for the dyno). I'm pretty sure Vandy was well aware that the part was going to be installed on HFM's car and not a stock Z. Why hasn't the manuf. taken the step to do this and provide this information --- thats was HFM's ultimate question that he kept repeating (that clearly got on people's nerves)

You're absolutely correct. Almost every mod has it's penality in someone's book. It really comes down to the person's needs. To me, its about value. Plenum and headers are too expensive in terms of $ per hp ratio, and i've witnessed that the same gains can be accomplished with other much cheaper mods. Yet some others are ready (and able) to buy all available mods, without any concern that a few will probably make minimal gains. That's their choice, all I can do is preach to the ones that feel the same way as me.

I have a lot of respect for doug's work. Innovators deserve the respect, especially when they keep close to the community with great customer service. But a consumer deserves to know the truth about a products performance without letting other factors like great service influence them. We've seen how the part did on your car, and now we've seen how it did on my car. Looking at two ind. results only give the potential consumer more data to make their decision. It only helps. What I learned is that this product, just like some other mods, doesn't maintain its advertised gains when applied to a slightly modified car (pulleys, cats, exhaust). I feel the same way about header/exhaust combinations. It's just my observations that i've witnessed and researched, some will agree, some won't... but nonetheless it helps the community evolve and new consumers make their decisions based on this.

And i'm sure we'll get that as well soon, but I still think that my example is more beneficial since most tuners will probably be installing this on a car with other mods.

You're opinions have always been logical, hopefully others can learn from this approach as quite a few posts on this thread are really in poor taste and really dont belong in this discussion.

 

I know this was mentioned earlier, but I hope everyone keeps in mind that as you start to vary from stock form you run the risk of creating tuning issues. Especially when parts were not tested and designed to work together. Now, could the data look better if the car had gone to TS for some fine tuning after the Plenum install? Very possible. Could it have made no difference at all? Also possible, but over the past year one would say that a car with this many intake and exhaust mods could benefit from fine tuning with TS, still it may not have made much of a difference as there is always that "what if" until proven otherwise.

One thing I really like about Crawford is that they are doing the testing of their products as a "package." With that approach to testing, the products have a higher success of "playing well" together when put on a car. The mods seem to compliment each other to create a very useful HP and TQ curve for all types of driving whether everyday driving or drag strip racing. This package has also been shown to work well with the stock ECU. For those who want to mix and match to buy whichever product from whichever company, this may not be how they want to do business. For others, it is a great N/A alternative and one stop shoping at a place that is great with their customers.

In the end its all about personal preference and again, what you want from your car. There is good information in this thread, unfortunately like most things in life, you will have to wade through the **** to get to the good stuff. Then hopefully it will help you to make your own decision based on what you want.

 

That is so untrue. But there are more than the fair share here.

HFM thanks for your time. I agree that your results are not laboratory, but who cares? Thanks for taking the time and $$$ to do this for us...the ungrateful lot that we are! At any rate, I am neither pro nor con on this Crawford thing. Whoever said something about sampling rates a few posts ago hit the nail on the head. To say that the claims are false (or true), there would need to be a large number of different dynos...all on the same machine...with stock cars. There are way too many variables left uncontrolled to be conclusive. That's why there is wiggle room and this thread has not solved anything.

Leave HFM alone, he did not have to do what he did. He might have been better served to post UP FRONT that he did not have a stock car to dyno, but that is semantic, not a criticism. The fact that you made a contribution puts you ahead of the ricers and magazine racers in my book.

Crawford cannot possibly anticipate every single mod and make the miracle product. There are a number of customers (many stock) who saw great gains. I think the gains may be greater with a few hundred extra revs past 6600. In your defense, HFM, you said there were more cost-effective mods not that this one was worthless. That statement is true for your car in your set-up. Which is what you said.

Maybe I am just not as smart as my last IQ test indicates. What is the problem here? Dyno results are (and always have been) car-specific. One can make ASSUMPTIONS based on what you see, but one can't extrapolate conclusions without empirical data (proof). As a board, we owe thanks to anyone who dynos or reviews products for the board. So thank you HFM and others who did this. This is no place for personal attacks and vendettas. This thread reads like a Howard Dean training video script. Who would have thought that politics would be a more sedate subject that Crawford headers. Also, big props to Crawford for making products for our cars. At least we have choices. Now I'm going back to lurking, before I get sniped for trying to make sense and disprove the "******" comment.

M

 

Had an offline discussion with doug. He feels theres a possibility that my AEM may be the cause of low numbers, and I think he may be right to a degree. Before he said anything to me, I was already getting ready to ditch the AEM since it gets so damn hot under the hood. It's really hot to the touch, and I can't see how it can be better than the stock plastic.

I have all the dyno files from our event, and after comparing my car to others, it does indeed look like my A/F is richer. I'm going to pull the AEM off and put the stock intake back and see if I feel a difference.

 

Let's talk about this.

 

dude your numbers on that banner perhaps a moe than a TAD ambitous w/only 3 mods. Perhaps you too have got a dose of reality on what your car is really putting out on avg not at best case.

 

While Wld350Z and myself have been zeroing in on Suspension.

HFM has done his best to provide a Crawford Plenum to those who want to make thier own tests.

I guess the point of testing the Crawford is Mute now that the New Plastic Plenums have arived and shown good power.

But I believe that HFM has done the best possible to sort out Fact from Fiction.

Thanks HFM for contributing to the My350Z Community, and those viewers who may have spent thier money without any real independent tests of this product.

You folks have seen the products, and those are not the same quality of Japanese tuners. But the fact that a fellow can be succesfull in selling an aftermarket product to many people. And actually bring income to his group with out any real facts is quite amazing. Sort of like Lentronics Z Video... Lot's of hype and no real help.

Cheers Amy -

 

I never said the numbers on my banner are average, it's the best pull so far. The numbers aren't made up, it was run at another dyno event with witnesses. I've posted the dyno sheet, so i'd suggest you let your fingers do some walking, do a search, and give yourself a reality check, dude.

 

See the poll results and ask yourself- Are those satisfied customers or victims of hype? I think the answer is obvious!

If you knew Doug from Crawfords I don't think you would make such a statement...it's not just about income!

And by the way, whose idea was the reworked plenum? Who was first, and possibly still best? Not sure you can base your conclusions on this thread considering all the questions raised.