Tire FEATHERING: FYI
Originally posted by Boomer
I am. I've followed the problem since the first report that was posted here in late fall 2002. My fix was change tires, get a 4 wheel alignment and keep an eye on any wear. I am putting on Koni adjustable struts in early April which will give me the rebound control the Z now lacks.
Keep your OE tires for the track and buy street tires with some reasonable tread wear rating. The OE tires have 140 UTOG(WEAR RATING), most street tires have a rating of over 200. mine are rated 400 UTOG. While ratings vary among brands, its not always precise, but I can assure you 400 vs. 140 IS BIG! 140 rated tires are worn out at 12-15,000 miles, anything else is gravy.
So, get a good 4 wheel alignment, lose the tires and monitor your tires closely, I'm doing it every 3-4000 miles after the new struts are on an if a wear pattern starts, on the inside or outside(rare, like mine), change your alignment to avoid excessive toeout(inside wear) or excessive toein(outside wear) and watch your tire pressure like a hawk. Excessive wear on both tire shoulders =underinflation; excessive wear in the middle of the tires=overinflation.
I am. I've followed the problem since the first report that was posted here in late fall 2002. My fix was change tires, get a 4 wheel alignment and keep an eye on any wear. I am putting on Koni adjustable struts in early April which will give me the rebound control the Z now lacks.
Keep your OE tires for the track and buy street tires with some reasonable tread wear rating. The OE tires have 140 UTOG(WEAR RATING), most street tires have a rating of over 200. mine are rated 400 UTOG. While ratings vary among brands, its not always precise, but I can assure you 400 vs. 140 IS BIG! 140 rated tires are worn out at 12-15,000 miles, anything else is gravy.
So, get a good 4 wheel alignment, lose the tires and monitor your tires closely, I'm doing it every 3-4000 miles after the new struts are on an if a wear pattern starts, on the inside or outside(rare, like mine), change your alignment to avoid excessive toeout(inside wear) or excessive toein(outside wear) and watch your tire pressure like a hawk. Excessive wear on both tire shoulders =underinflation; excessive wear in the middle of the tires=overinflation.
Originally posted by dnguyent
The reason why we don't have roaring in our rear tire is because that tire experiences scrubing in both directions from both acceleration and decceleration, thereby negating the feathering effects. If you are feathering your rear tires, then either you're driving with your rear brakes on or your rear brakes aren't braking as much as they should be. Check which edge of the tread block you're wearing out (leading or trailing). The leading edge is the edge that faces forward, and trailing faces toward the back of the car.
If your leading edge is scrubbing, then your rear brakes are probably doing too much braking or is constantly braking somehow. On the other hand, if your trailing edge is scrubbing, then your rear brakes aren't being used much, and all the scrubbing is due to acceleration.
Now the front tires will only see braking, and with such a soft compound tire (and possibly poorly designed), it will always scrub off the leading edge of each tread block. Then comes the noise.
Because a few members of this forum still get feathering with other brands or models of tires, the culprit is not only the tires, but also the suspension design.
As for your warranty, I believe that if you bring in the car for problems before the warranty is over, then they must fix it. If the same problem reoccurs after the warranty is over then Nissan must still fix it. Based on some of the posts I've read, some dealerships will honor this policy, while others are downright sleezing their way out of it. At some point, the dealerships have to give up because they can't run a business without getting paid for all the efforts they put into it. So, all fingers are pointed at NNA, which isn't a surprise to anyone.
Bring your car in and have them do something about the noise from your rears (alignment) AND have them check your rear brakes too because something is going on there.
The reason why we don't have roaring in our rear tire is because that tire experiences scrubing in both directions from both acceleration and decceleration, thereby negating the feathering effects. If you are feathering your rear tires, then either you're driving with your rear brakes on or your rear brakes aren't braking as much as they should be. Check which edge of the tread block you're wearing out (leading or trailing). The leading edge is the edge that faces forward, and trailing faces toward the back of the car.
If your leading edge is scrubbing, then your rear brakes are probably doing too much braking or is constantly braking somehow. On the other hand, if your trailing edge is scrubbing, then your rear brakes aren't being used much, and all the scrubbing is due to acceleration.
Now the front tires will only see braking, and with such a soft compound tire (and possibly poorly designed), it will always scrub off the leading edge of each tread block. Then comes the noise.
Because a few members of this forum still get feathering with other brands or models of tires, the culprit is not only the tires, but also the suspension design.
As for your warranty, I believe that if you bring in the car for problems before the warranty is over, then they must fix it. If the same problem reoccurs after the warranty is over then Nissan must still fix it. Based on some of the posts I've read, some dealerships will honor this policy, while others are downright sleezing their way out of it. At some point, the dealerships have to give up because they can't run a business without getting paid for all the efforts they put into it. So, all fingers are pointed at NNA, which isn't a surprise to anyone.
Bring your car in and have them do something about the noise from your rears (alignment) AND have them check your rear brakes too because something is going on there.
Thank you so much. I will actually bring my car to a different dealership because I'm having some problems with my current one. I will definately have them check the allignment again and the brakes.
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Joined: Dec 2002
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From: NEW JERSEY
Originally posted by dnguyent
My thoughts exactly. It sounds like another slimy rumor in hopes that it will shu away a "problematic" owner.
Does anyone one subscribed to this thread know of anyone else that miraculously does not have this issue with the OEM tires and suspension? I mean, I'd like to hear someone say that they got 20k miles out of the RE040 on stock suspension with normal wear, and no roaring. I look at my tires, and even if they are starting to roar (moderately) at 9000 mi, it looks like they should last another 10k miles, easily. After 2000+ posts, I don't recall any that stated NO ROARING issue. I just assumed that the folks that haven't claimed any tire roaring problems are just oblivious, deaf or both.
Like many of the members, I will use my hard earned $ to pay for new suspension bits and wheels to rid of the noise. But, this WILL be my last Nissan, and I'll be making aggressive efforts to deter future purchases by friends, family, and acquaintances. I know I have already delayed a few buyers by warning them to wait till Nissan fixes this problem. I'm not embarrassed to tell people that this beautiful Z sounds like it's got mud bogging tires.
My thoughts exactly. It sounds like another slimy rumor in hopes that it will shu away a "problematic" owner.
Does anyone one subscribed to this thread know of anyone else that miraculously does not have this issue with the OEM tires and suspension? I mean, I'd like to hear someone say that they got 20k miles out of the RE040 on stock suspension with normal wear, and no roaring. I look at my tires, and even if they are starting to roar (moderately) at 9000 mi, it looks like they should last another 10k miles, easily. After 2000+ posts, I don't recall any that stated NO ROARING issue. I just assumed that the folks that haven't claimed any tire roaring problems are just oblivious, deaf or both.
Like many of the members, I will use my hard earned $ to pay for new suspension bits and wheels to rid of the noise. But, this WILL be my last Nissan, and I'll be making aggressive efforts to deter future purchases by friends, family, and acquaintances. I know I have already delayed a few buyers by warning them to wait till Nissan fixes this problem. I'm not embarrassed to tell people that this beautiful Z sounds like it's got mud bogging tires.
In researching new tires, almost every brand in this caliber of tire has some negative comment of feathering and poor wear, from just about every car manufacturer.
As was stated elsewhere in this forum, this Z is a great car; some of us have to put up with more grief than others.
Joined: Jun 2002
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Originally posted by jmark
Keith, I see your up & running on the net again. I paid for my Konis today. Looking forward to hearing your review of the Konis as I won't get mine on till early May. Just unable to get a time when BJ isn't racing or I'm not coaching my son in AAU basketball. It won't be long now.
Keith, I see your up & running on the net again. I paid for my Konis today. Looking forward to hearing your review of the Konis as I won't get mine on till early May. Just unable to get a time when BJ isn't racing or I'm not coaching my son in AAU basketball. It won't be long now.
Tire Block
Dnguyent Wrote:
Now the front tires will only see braking, and with such a soft compound tire (and possibly poorly designed), it will always scrub off the leading edge of each tread block. Then comes the noise.
End of quote.
Looking at a set of feathered 350Z tires.. Several brands.
Actually the leading edge of the tire block is tallest with the trailing edge being worn down. The part of the block that touches the road first is not the point of wear.
That is the part that baffled the aviation tire center. They did however indicate tow out and strut rebound rate to be the principle issue.
And one problem yet to be tested is a supension geometry issue.
As the tire goes up ( on a bounce ) the "ball" of the tire moves laterally ( read side ways ). This leaves a shread pattern on a diagonal. About this time the next block is hitting the road, and the again tire is pushed upward. The wear occurs on the trailing edge again.
We are trying to reason this out.. It looks as if.. when a normal car hits a bounce - the shock/strut returns the tire smoothly back to the ground. Our car's struts pounds the tire back at the ground.
Cheers Amy
-
Now the front tires will only see braking, and with such a soft compound tire (and possibly poorly designed), it will always scrub off the leading edge of each tread block. Then comes the noise.
End of quote.
Looking at a set of feathered 350Z tires.. Several brands.
Actually the leading edge of the tire block is tallest with the trailing edge being worn down. The part of the block that touches the road first is not the point of wear.
That is the part that baffled the aviation tire center. They did however indicate tow out and strut rebound rate to be the principle issue.
And one problem yet to be tested is a supension geometry issue.
As the tire goes up ( on a bounce ) the "ball" of the tire moves laterally ( read side ways ). This leaves a shread pattern on a diagonal. About this time the next block is hitting the road, and the again tire is pushed upward. The wear occurs on the trailing edge again.
We are trying to reason this out.. It looks as if.. when a normal car hits a bounce - the shock/strut returns the tire smoothly back to the ground. Our car's struts pounds the tire back at the ground.
Cheers Amy
-
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Joined: Feb 2003
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From: Apex, NC
Originally posted by got_jesus?
So will a camber kit correct the problem???????????????????????
anybody~
So will a camber kit correct the problem???????????????????????
anybody~
Would it correct the issue entirely? Not sure, but many people that I have talked to with much more knowledge than me about alignment issues seem to think so.
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From: Texas/DFW/Keller
Originally posted by fuzzwart
At several points in this long thread it has been suggested that being able to adjust the camber would help to resolve the issue. When discussing the issue with my service manager, he said that he was hoping that some kind of "kit" for camber adjustment would be part of the "fix" as he believed that it would help.
Would it correct the issue entirely? Not sure, but many people that I have talked to with much more knowledge than me about alignment issues seem to think so.
At several points in this long thread it has been suggested that being able to adjust the camber would help to resolve the issue. When discussing the issue with my service manager, he said that he was hoping that some kind of "kit" for camber adjustment would be part of the "fix" as he believed that it would help.
Would it correct the issue entirely? Not sure, but many people that I have talked to with much more knowledge than me about alignment issues seem to think so.
THANKS!!!!!!
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 162
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From: Clearwater, Florida
Originally posted by got_jesus?
Ooohhh...ok... I figure getting a camber kit would at least solve the problem for a little bit.
THANKS!!!!!!
Ooohhh...ok... I figure getting a camber kit would at least solve the problem for a little bit.
THANKS!!!!!!
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Joined: Nov 2003
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From: Texas/DFW/Keller
Originally posted by overZealous
A camber kit is not likely to solve this problem or even mitigate it in my opinion. Alot of negative camber will certainly accelerate the wear on the inside edges, however, it will not produce shoulder cupping. The 2mm total toe recomendation that Nissan has issued has also caused feathering to occur on the outside edges. That has been my direct experience. Reducing negative camber would have no effect on that. You can play with the camber and toe all day and you can most definitely change how the symptoms of the shoulder cupping problem are exhibited but at the end of the day you will still have cupped tires. The Z doesn't even have that much negative camber to begin with. The car in your sig line on the other hand...
A camber kit is not likely to solve this problem or even mitigate it in my opinion. Alot of negative camber will certainly accelerate the wear on the inside edges, however, it will not produce shoulder cupping. The 2mm total toe recomendation that Nissan has issued has also caused feathering to occur on the outside edges. That has been my direct experience. Reducing negative camber would have no effect on that. You can play with the camber and toe all day and you can most definitely change how the symptoms of the shoulder cupping problem are exhibited but at the end of the day you will still have cupped tires. The Z doesn't even have that much negative camber to begin with. The car in your sig line on the other hand...
Wow! I am really scared of purchasing a Z after hearing all these issues.......
Originally posted by Boomer
Yes, I paid for mine today also. ETA at BJ's is 3/29, so mid April, I hope. As soon as they are on, I will do a first impressions, then in-depth a little while longer will they seat in and I can play with tire pressure. Good luck to your son with his basketball.
Yes, I paid for mine today also. ETA at BJ's is 3/29, so mid April, I hope. As soon as they are on, I will do a first impressions, then in-depth a little while longer will they seat in and I can play with tire pressure. Good luck to your son with his basketball.
Re: Tire Block
Originally posted by AmyCroft
Looking at a set of feathered 350Z tires.. Several brands.
Actually the leading edge of the tire block is tallest with the trailing edge being worn down. The part of the block that touches the road first is not the point of wear.
That is the part that baffled the aviation tire center. They did however indicate tow out and strut rebound rate to be the principle issue.
And one problem yet to be tested is a supension geometry issue.
As the tire goes up ( on a bounce ) the "ball" of the tire moves laterally ( read side ways ). This leaves a shread pattern on a diagonal. About this time the next block is hitting the road, and the again tire is pushed upward. The wear occurs on the trailing edge again.
We are trying to reason this out.. It looks as if.. when a normal car hits a bounce - the shock/strut returns the tire smoothly back to the ground. Our car's struts pounds the tire back at the ground.
Cheers Amy -
Looking at a set of feathered 350Z tires.. Several brands.
Actually the leading edge of the tire block is tallest with the trailing edge being worn down. The part of the block that touches the road first is not the point of wear.
That is the part that baffled the aviation tire center. They did however indicate tow out and strut rebound rate to be the principle issue.
And one problem yet to be tested is a supension geometry issue.
As the tire goes up ( on a bounce ) the "ball" of the tire moves laterally ( read side ways ). This leaves a shread pattern on a diagonal. About this time the next block is hitting the road, and the again tire is pushed upward. The wear occurs on the trailing edge again.
We are trying to reason this out.. It looks as if.. when a normal car hits a bounce - the shock/strut returns the tire smoothly back to the ground. Our car's struts pounds the tire back at the ground.
Cheers Amy
-
Regarding "leading edge" and "trailing edge", thanks for getting my terminology straight. I forgot which one was the leading egde and which one was the trailing edge, and that's why I went further to describe which one faces toward the front of the car vs. the rear of the car as it contacts the pavement. I believe we are on the same page...just kind of mixed up my terminology. This kind of stuff is so difficult to describe in words.
However, the way the tire is wearing, with the trailing edge wearing before the leading edge (of the same tread block), it is consistent with a "braking only" scenario. The leading edge is not supported longitudinally, and is allowed to defect under braking thereby reducing its wear. The trailing edge, however, is much stiffer due to its longitudinal support by the tread block rubber. In structural systems, the stiffer component always bears the brunt of the force. Because both leading and trailing edges are contacting the pavement at the same time, the trailing edge is taking on most of the braking force causing it to wear faster than the more flexible leading edge.
This kind of wear is exacerbated by poor alignment and probably, as you mentioned, poor suspension design. It looks like you are also approaching the problem with the harmonics component in mind. Unfortunately, that is one area of tire wear characteristic I just don't understand. Tire cupping due to worn suspension components and/or overinflated tires just baffles me.
Small changes like wheel weights, spring rates, rebound rates changes the harmonics, and that's probably why some Z owners with different suspension systems claim reduced tire feathering. But, any slight reoccurence of feathering may be simply due to the braking component discussed above, which cannot be alleviated because we cannot rotate our front tires.
I will get my alignment checked for the first time tomorrow, and will compare that with my friend's Z. He has 18" perf wheels, which weigh 3-5 lbs more. His tire wear was much worse than mine at the same mileage. Our driving habits roughly the same, and we spend about the same % of time on freeways/city. If my aligment is about the same as his, then I would suspect that the wheel/suspension harmonics is a big contributor to our problem.
-Don
As for camber kits, I just don't see how that would alleviate the problem. I have feathering on both exterior and interior tread blocks, although the exterior is more severe. IMO, adjusting camber would only allow me to choose which tread block (interior vs. exterior) to feather more. Same with toe settings...toe in more, exterior block feathers...toe out more moves the feathering to the interior tread block.
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Joined: Jan 2003
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From: Jacksonville, Florida
That's what happened to me...
Originally posted by overZealous
A camber kit is not likely to solve this problem or even mitigate it in my opinion. Alot of negative camber will certainly accelerate the wear on the inside edges, however, it will not produce shoulder cupping. The 2mm total toe recomendation that Nissan has issued has also caused feathering to occur on the outside edges. That has been my direct experience. Reducing negative camber would have no effect on that. You can play with the camber and toe all day and you can most definitely change how the symptoms of the shoulder cupping problem are exhibited but at the end of the day you will still have cupped tires. The Z doesn't even have that much negative camber to begin with. The car in your sig line on the other hand...
A camber kit is not likely to solve this problem or even mitigate it in my opinion. Alot of negative camber will certainly accelerate the wear on the inside edges, however, it will not produce shoulder cupping. The 2mm total toe recomendation that Nissan has issued has also caused feathering to occur on the outside edges. That has been my direct experience. Reducing negative camber would have no effect on that. You can play with the camber and toe all day and you can most definitely change how the symptoms of the shoulder cupping problem are exhibited but at the end of the day you will still have cupped tires. The Z doesn't even have that much negative camber to begin with. The car in your sig line on the other hand...
So I reopened my case today to start the buyback process since I've passed the final repair stage.
Ugh....
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 162
Likes: 1
From: Clearwater, Florida
Re: That's what happened to me...
Originally posted by kbsig106
I had inside wear on the 1st set of RE04's. Once they did 006(b) and replaced the front tires things were good till last week. I just noticed feathering now on the OUTSIDE tread vs. the inside on my last set of tires.
So I reopened my case today to start the buyback process since I've passed the final repair stage.
Ugh....
I had inside wear on the 1st set of RE04's. Once they did 006(b) and replaced the front tires things were good till last week. I just noticed feathering now on the OUTSIDE tread vs. the inside on my last set of tires.
So I reopened my case today to start the buyback process since I've passed the final repair stage.
Ugh....
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 113
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From: Grass Lake, Michigan
Re: Re: That's what happened to me...
Originally posted by overZealous
I experienced the same thing. Now may be the time to get an attorney if you have not already done so. Nissan can be sued under Federal law in addition to the State Certified Arbitration Program. You want to put as much pressure as you can on Nissan who is obviously not going to be "nice" about this so that you get a timely and fair resolution. The attorney will most likely try to settle with them before taking any legal action. If you are just going to take them to task in the Certified Program then Nissan will take their chances there. They will most likely loose but it won't cost them outside of the judgement. If they are facing a federal case then they may take any settlement offer a bit more seriously as they would then face legal fees that could easily outweigh any judgement or settlement. And if they loose they are liable for yours as well. That is why the lemon law attorney probably won't ask for any money from you with the possible exception of the filing fee. If you already have one then I apologize for preaching to the choir. Good luck with your case and keep us updated please.
I experienced the same thing. Now may be the time to get an attorney if you have not already done so. Nissan can be sued under Federal law in addition to the State Certified Arbitration Program. You want to put as much pressure as you can on Nissan who is obviously not going to be "nice" about this so that you get a timely and fair resolution. The attorney will most likely try to settle with them before taking any legal action. If you are just going to take them to task in the Certified Program then Nissan will take their chances there. They will most likely loose but it won't cost them outside of the judgement. If they are facing a federal case then they may take any settlement offer a bit more seriously as they would then face legal fees that could easily outweigh any judgement or settlement. And if they loose they are liable for yours as well. That is why the lemon law attorney probably won't ask for any money from you with the possible exception of the filing fee. If you already have one then I apologize for preaching to the choir. Good luck with your case and keep us updated please.
Thanks in advance.
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Joined: Oct 2002
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From: Falkville, AL
As posted by OverZealous
I had my 30K maintenance performed yesterday and the Nissan reccommendation has now changed (as of 2 weeks ago) to 1 mm or .10 degrees
The reason was, as you noted, because the outside edge of tires were wearing excessively. The service writer and the dealership are very helpful but are as helpless as everyone else until Nissan gets a grip on their problem and faces it.
What was once old is new.
The 2mm total toe recomendation that Nissan has issued has also caused feathering to occur on the outside edges.
The reason was, as you noted, because the outside edge of tires were wearing excessively. The service writer and the dealership are very helpful but are as helpless as everyone else until Nissan gets a grip on their problem and faces it.
What was once old is new.
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 162
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From: Clearwater, Florida
Re: Re: Re: That's what happened to me...
Originally posted by Thaddeus
I am aware of Michigan lemon laws but am not familar with aplicable federal laws. What are the federal laws?
Thanks in advance.
I am aware of Michigan lemon laws but am not familar with aplicable federal laws. What are the federal laws?
Thanks in advance.
I'm with Amy I have said all along the poor valving on the OEM shocks contribute to the tire wear as well as the bounce. That's why the S-Tune suspension fixes the feathering......
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,399
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Originally posted by jmark
I'm with Amy I have said all along the poor valving on the OEM shocks contribute to the tire wear as well as the bounce. That's why the S-Tune suspension fixes the feathering......
I'm with Amy I have said all along the poor valving on the OEM shocks contribute to the tire wear as well as the bounce. That's why the S-Tune suspension fixes the feathering......
jmark,
What else did you change to your susp besides s-tune spring and shocks? Wheels and tires too?
I'm interested in your setup, and if you don't have any funky wearing after, say 15,000 miles, I'd like to do what you've done. Like I said in a prior post, if I can't get NNA to honor their warranty and adhere to decent business practices, then I'll fix it myself... And, if I end up fixing it myself, I'm going on an Anti-Nissan/Infinity crusade.
What else did you change to your susp besides s-tune spring and shocks? Wheels and tires too?
I'm interested in your setup, and if you don't have any funky wearing after, say 15,000 miles, I'd like to do what you've done. Like I said in a prior post, if I can't get NNA to honor their warranty and adhere to decent business practices, then I'll fix it myself... And, if I end up fixing it myself, I'm going on an Anti-Nissan/Infinity crusade.
