Kiling understeer!
07-01-2004, 03:35 PM
#1
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Kiling understeer!
How???!!!
I have amassed about $6500 american for my Z again, and am hoping to get rid of this nasty azz understeer that I find everywhere. I was thinking about a tein flex coilover system, 350evo camber arms, kinetix traction arms, some good wheel (18x9.5, 18x10.5) and tire combo, and anything else some of you fine people may suggest,
Keep it frosty, Evan
I have amassed about $6500 american for my Z again, and am hoping to get rid of this nasty azz understeer that I find everywhere. I was thinking about a tein flex coilover system, 350evo camber arms, kinetix traction arms, some good wheel (18x9.5, 18x10.5) and tire combo, and anything else some of you fine people may suggest,
Keep it frosty, Evan
07-01-2004, 04:27 PM
#3
Drop me an email............
BJ@350EVO.com
I am actually working on putting a complete suspension kit together and can give you a price on it.
350EVO sways
350EVO rear camber and trailing arms
350EVO front control arms
Konis sport yellow shocks
Eibach Springs
If you are serious about tracking we will have the Moton sport line of 350Z's in house in August.
Cheers
BJZ
BJ@350EVO.com
I am actually working on putting a complete suspension kit together and can give you a price on it.
350EVO sways
350EVO rear camber and trailing arms
350EVO front control arms
Konis sport yellow shocks
Eibach Springs
If you are serious about tracking we will have the Moton sport line of 350Z's in house in August.
Cheers
BJZ
07-01-2004, 05:46 PM
#5
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add coilovers and sways...if you plan to drop down more than .8" then you may need the camber components to keep alignment within spec...i would do this if your budget allows, that way you don't have to worry about it....sways+coilovers should be around $3000 installed...put the rest into some rims and tires and your set!
07-02-2004, 07:20 AM
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axxizzer, if you are asking me I'm putting 18"x9" wheels all round and I'm getting 265/40-18 tires. Also having wider wheels at the front should shorten your brakeing distance and increase cornering speeds. Also make sure you add a set of adjustible swaybars.
As a side effect of this setup you'll be able to rotate your front tires to the rear (I've tire feathering so it'll help a lot).
As a side effect of this setup you'll be able to rotate your front tires to the rear (I've tire feathering so it'll help a lot).
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07-02-2004, 11:33 PM
#8
Yesterday I pushed my Nismo S-tune Suspension and sways extremely hard. The car slid evenly. So much so that the VDC did not even pick up the sliding. I was amazed how neutral it was. Previously, I felt the S-tunes removed much of the understeer, but still pushed at the limit. I have to admit I was at half throttle.
07-03-2004, 06:21 AM
#9
The suspension mod game is an interesting mix because of the collateral effect a change can make on other aspects of handling.
I am driving a G35 coupe, which is a couple of hundred pounds heavier and about eight inches longer than the Z, but I have FI on it and track it reasonably often, so I have been getting it out on the edge and learning gradually what seems to work. At this point I have pretty neutral handling, with perhaps a slight tilt to oversteer, but in any event none of the factory programmed understeer that almost all cars come with, our Nissan products being no exception.
There are many ways to do this, and this is not the answer for all G cars, and certainly not Z cars, but it works for me:
Tein flex coilovers with edfc unit. This lowered the car a little over an inch in front and a little under an inch in back. With 16 programmable settings for the front, and another 16 for the rear (32 if you want to get real fussy and go in half steps!) you can stiffen or soften your damping to help tune in or tune out the relative understeer/oversteer of the car's set up.....as it exists from the OTHER factors that influence it. The control unit is in the cabin with you and you can put in three pre-programmed settings, but also then adjust from there.
Stiffer sway bars, and in particular, a slightly stiffer set up for the rear balance relative to the fronts. The Nismos are designed for your car so you have to consider them. But there are a lot of offerings out there so just read up about all of them until you feel you know all that you need to. I used the Stillen adjustables and so far feel they are doing a good job for me.
Tire stagger promotes understeer when you get track in the rear that is larger than track in the front. That is not necessarily bad, just a consequence. However, if you are wanting more aggressive handling capability, increasing the track on your fronts and rears, to a point, can be an enhancement. You may get increased road noise and harshness as a result of the greater contact patch. And, you may also increase the unsprung weight which is not a desireable direction to go, and rolling resistance will increase. You might thus consider within your budget a light weight forged wheel, like the 18" Nismo, with an 8.5" rim and a 245 track width for the front, and a 9.5" rim with a 275 track width for the rear. This will shed several pounds of weight per wheel.
Tire inflation can be used to tickle with understeer/oversteer too, but that technique also can impact adhesion so I wouldn't mess with that as a solution, but only a fine tune. IF you have the Tein flex edfc you certainly won't be doing inflation adjustments for that purpose (you might be bleeding or adding air for psi adjustment resulting from temp fluctuations on the track).
Upper control arms. Though not technically a damper or stiffner, they significantly add to the responsiveness of the steering, and if you lower the car your contact patch is not ideal any longer. The uca will get the fronts back on track and provide better adhesion, thus working to reduce understeer that off camber tires will promote when the car has been lowered. Performance Nissan Racing has a set that I put in and really like. They have a couple of different ball mounts and bushings you can choose from as well.
Good luck, and enjoy your new modifications.
I am driving a G35 coupe, which is a couple of hundred pounds heavier and about eight inches longer than the Z, but I have FI on it and track it reasonably often, so I have been getting it out on the edge and learning gradually what seems to work. At this point I have pretty neutral handling, with perhaps a slight tilt to oversteer, but in any event none of the factory programmed understeer that almost all cars come with, our Nissan products being no exception.
There are many ways to do this, and this is not the answer for all G cars, and certainly not Z cars, but it works for me:
Tein flex coilovers with edfc unit. This lowered the car a little over an inch in front and a little under an inch in back. With 16 programmable settings for the front, and another 16 for the rear (32 if you want to get real fussy and go in half steps!) you can stiffen or soften your damping to help tune in or tune out the relative understeer/oversteer of the car's set up.....as it exists from the OTHER factors that influence it. The control unit is in the cabin with you and you can put in three pre-programmed settings, but also then adjust from there.
Stiffer sway bars, and in particular, a slightly stiffer set up for the rear balance relative to the fronts. The Nismos are designed for your car so you have to consider them. But there are a lot of offerings out there so just read up about all of them until you feel you know all that you need to. I used the Stillen adjustables and so far feel they are doing a good job for me.
Tire stagger promotes understeer when you get track in the rear that is larger than track in the front. That is not necessarily bad, just a consequence. However, if you are wanting more aggressive handling capability, increasing the track on your fronts and rears, to a point, can be an enhancement. You may get increased road noise and harshness as a result of the greater contact patch. And, you may also increase the unsprung weight which is not a desireable direction to go, and rolling resistance will increase. You might thus consider within your budget a light weight forged wheel, like the 18" Nismo, with an 8.5" rim and a 245 track width for the front, and a 9.5" rim with a 275 track width for the rear. This will shed several pounds of weight per wheel.
Tire inflation can be used to tickle with understeer/oversteer too, but that technique also can impact adhesion so I wouldn't mess with that as a solution, but only a fine tune. IF you have the Tein flex edfc you certainly won't be doing inflation adjustments for that purpose (you might be bleeding or adding air for psi adjustment resulting from temp fluctuations on the track).
Upper control arms. Though not technically a damper or stiffner, they significantly add to the responsiveness of the steering, and if you lower the car your contact patch is not ideal any longer. The uca will get the fronts back on track and provide better adhesion, thus working to reduce understeer that off camber tires will promote when the car has been lowered. Performance Nissan Racing has a set that I put in and really like. They have a couple of different ball mounts and bushings you can choose from as well.
Good luck, and enjoy your new modifications.
07-03-2004, 07:38 AM
#10
Once the suspension is compressed due to load or extension, dampner adjustment influence on understeer or oversteer is over. Your really dialing in turn in and transitional elements (weight transfer) that lead up to steady state behavior. Dampners setting have no influence on steady state cornering, since nothing is being asked of them to control, that is the realm of the springs and sway bars.
1. Set your chassis up to balance the car based on proper spring rate choices. Oem spring rates are 314/342, front motion rates are .79 rear is .36 (In this line of discussion, to run progressive spring rates should be pondered by the individual. My advice is not to roll over for a spring makers solution to work with oem dampners).
2. Match them with dampners that can control your spring rate selection, if that mean's coilovers, koni's or revalved Koni's so be it.
3. Install adjustable sway bars to fine tune the car's behavior to suit your driving style. Sway bars are ment to fine tune, not for wholesale corrections for ignoring the rules above.
4. Consider your contact patches.
1. Set your chassis up to balance the car based on proper spring rate choices. Oem spring rates are 314/342, front motion rates are .79 rear is .36 (In this line of discussion, to run progressive spring rates should be pondered by the individual. My advice is not to roll over for a spring makers solution to work with oem dampners).
2. Match them with dampners that can control your spring rate selection, if that mean's coilovers, koni's or revalved Koni's so be it.
3. Install adjustable sway bars to fine tune the car's behavior to suit your driving style. Sway bars are ment to fine tune, not for wholesale corrections for ignoring the rules above.
4. Consider your contact patches.
07-03-2004, 08:14 AM
#11
http://www.theuspits.com/news/race/quikfix.html
You might want to check this list of adjustments for some bits of information that might also help get a handle on it.
You might want to check this list of adjustments for some bits of information that might also help get a handle on it.
07-03-2004, 12:21 PM
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don't remember where i got the info so no link...sorry...here goes:
Spring Rate Changes---->Modification and Effect on Suspension:
Increase front and rear rate: Ride harshness increases; tires may not follow bumps causing reduced traction. Roll resistance increases.
Increase front rate only: Front ride rate increases. Front roll resistance increases, increasing understeer or reducing oversteer.
Increase rear rate only: Rear ride rate increases. Rear roll resistance increases, increasing oversteer or reducing understeer.
Decrease front and rear rate: Ride harshness decreases; tires follow bumps more effectively, possibly improving traction. Roll resistance decreases.
Decrease front rate onlyz: Front ride rate decreases. Front roll resistance decreases, decreasing understeer or increasing oversteer.
Decrease rear rate only: Rear ride rate decreases. Rear roll resistance decreases, decreasing oversteer or increasing understeer.
Antiroll Bar Changes---->Modification and Effect on Suspension:
Increase front rate Front roll resistance increases, increasing understeer or decreasing oversteer. May also reduce camber change, allowing better tire contact patch compliance with the road surface, reducing understeer.
Increase rear rate: Rear roll resistance increases, increasing oversteer or decreasing understeer. On independent rear suspensions, may also reduce camber change, allowing better contact patch compliance with road surface, reducing oversteer.
Decrease front rate: Front roll resistance decreases, decreasing understeer or increasing oversteer. More body roll could reduce tire contact patch area, causing understeer.
Decrease rear rate: Rear roll resistance decreases, decreasing oversteer or increasing understeer. On independent rear suspensions, more body roll could reduce tire contact patch area, causing oversteer.
Shock Absorber Changes---->Modification and Effect on Suspension
Increase rebound and bump rates: Ride harshness increases.
Increase rebound rates only On bumps, tires may leave track surface.
Increase bump rates only: Body roll resisted; outside tire loaded too quickly; car won't stabilize into a turn.
Decrease rebound and bump rates: Ride harshness decreases; car may float over bumps.
Decrease rebound rates only: On bumps, tires follow track surface more effectively; car may continue to oscillate after bumps.
Decrease bump rates only: Body rolls quickly; car is slower to respond to turn-in.
explains both understeer and oversteer as related to suspension....running low tire pressure in front can also cause understeer....hope that helps
Spring Rate Changes---->Modification and Effect on Suspension:
Increase front and rear rate: Ride harshness increases; tires may not follow bumps causing reduced traction. Roll resistance increases.
Increase front rate only: Front ride rate increases. Front roll resistance increases, increasing understeer or reducing oversteer.
Increase rear rate only: Rear ride rate increases. Rear roll resistance increases, increasing oversteer or reducing understeer.
Decrease front and rear rate: Ride harshness decreases; tires follow bumps more effectively, possibly improving traction. Roll resistance decreases.
Decrease front rate onlyz: Front ride rate decreases. Front roll resistance decreases, decreasing understeer or increasing oversteer.
Decrease rear rate only: Rear ride rate decreases. Rear roll resistance decreases, decreasing oversteer or increasing understeer.
Antiroll Bar Changes---->Modification and Effect on Suspension:
Increase front rate Front roll resistance increases, increasing understeer or decreasing oversteer. May also reduce camber change, allowing better tire contact patch compliance with the road surface, reducing understeer.
Increase rear rate: Rear roll resistance increases, increasing oversteer or decreasing understeer. On independent rear suspensions, may also reduce camber change, allowing better contact patch compliance with road surface, reducing oversteer.
Decrease front rate: Front roll resistance decreases, decreasing understeer or increasing oversteer. More body roll could reduce tire contact patch area, causing understeer.
Decrease rear rate: Rear roll resistance decreases, decreasing oversteer or increasing understeer. On independent rear suspensions, more body roll could reduce tire contact patch area, causing oversteer.
Shock Absorber Changes---->Modification and Effect on Suspension
Increase rebound and bump rates: Ride harshness increases.
Increase rebound rates only On bumps, tires may leave track surface.
Increase bump rates only: Body roll resisted; outside tire loaded too quickly; car won't stabilize into a turn.
Decrease rebound and bump rates: Ride harshness decreases; car may float over bumps.
Decrease rebound rates only: On bumps, tires follow track surface more effectively; car may continue to oscillate after bumps.
Decrease bump rates only: Body rolls quickly; car is slower to respond to turn-in.
explains both understeer and oversteer as related to suspension....running low tire pressure in front can also cause understeer....hope that helps
07-03-2004, 02:39 PM
#13
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Originally posted by Eagle1
The suspension mod game is an interesting mix because of the collateral effect a change can make on other aspects of handling.
I am driving a G35 coupe, which is a couple of hundred pounds heavier and about eight inches longer than the Z, but I have FI on it and track it reasonably often, so I have been getting it out on the edge and learning gradually what seems to work. At this point I have pretty neutral handling, with perhaps a slight tilt to oversteer, but in any event none of the factory programmed understeer that almost all cars come with, our Nissan products being no exception.
There are many ways to do this, and this is not the answer for all G cars, and certainly not Z cars, but it works for me:
Tein flex coilovers with edfc unit. This lowered the car a little over an inch in front and a little under an inch in back. With 16 programmable settings for the front, and another 16 for the rear (32 if you want to get real fussy and go in half steps!) you can stiffen or soften your damping to help tune in or tune out the relative understeer/oversteer of the car's set up.....as it exists from the OTHER factors that influence it. The control unit is in the cabin with you and you can put in three pre-programmed settings, but also then adjust from there.
Stiffer sway bars, and in particular, a slightly stiffer set up for the rear balance relative to the fronts. The Nismos are designed for your car so you have to consider them. But there are a lot of offerings out there so just read up about all of them until you feel you know all that you need to. I used the Stillen adjustables and so far feel they are doing a good job for me.
Tire stagger promotes understeer when you get track in the rear that is larger than track in the front. That is not necessarily bad, just a consequence. However, if you are wanting more aggressive handling capability, increasing the track on your fronts and rears, to a point, can be an enhancement. You may get increased road noise and harshness as a result of the greater contact patch. And, you may also increase the unsprung weight which is not a desireable direction to go, and rolling resistance will increase. You might thus consider within your budget a light weight forged wheel, like the 18" Nismo, with an 8.5" rim and a 245 track width for the front, and a 9.5" rim with a 275 track width for the rear. This will shed several pounds of weight per wheel.
Tire inflation can be used to tickle with understeer/oversteer too, but that technique also can impact adhesion so I wouldn't mess with that as a solution, but only a fine tune. IF you have the Tein flex edfc you certainly won't be doing inflation adjustments for that purpose (you might be bleeding or adding air for psi adjustment resulting from temp fluctuations on the track).
Upper control arms. Though not technically a damper or stiffner, they significantly add to the responsiveness of the steering, and if you lower the car your contact patch is not ideal any longer. The uca will get the fronts back on track and provide better adhesion, thus working to reduce understeer that off camber tires will promote when the car has been lowered. Performance Nissan Racing has a set that I put in and really like. They have a couple of different ball mounts and bushings you can choose from as well.
Good luck, and enjoy your new modifications.
The suspension mod game is an interesting mix because of the collateral effect a change can make on other aspects of handling.
I am driving a G35 coupe, which is a couple of hundred pounds heavier and about eight inches longer than the Z, but I have FI on it and track it reasonably often, so I have been getting it out on the edge and learning gradually what seems to work. At this point I have pretty neutral handling, with perhaps a slight tilt to oversteer, but in any event none of the factory programmed understeer that almost all cars come with, our Nissan products being no exception.
There are many ways to do this, and this is not the answer for all G cars, and certainly not Z cars, but it works for me:
Tein flex coilovers with edfc unit. This lowered the car a little over an inch in front and a little under an inch in back. With 16 programmable settings for the front, and another 16 for the rear (32 if you want to get real fussy and go in half steps!) you can stiffen or soften your damping to help tune in or tune out the relative understeer/oversteer of the car's set up.....as it exists from the OTHER factors that influence it. The control unit is in the cabin with you and you can put in three pre-programmed settings, but also then adjust from there.
Stiffer sway bars, and in particular, a slightly stiffer set up for the rear balance relative to the fronts. The Nismos are designed for your car so you have to consider them. But there are a lot of offerings out there so just read up about all of them until you feel you know all that you need to. I used the Stillen adjustables and so far feel they are doing a good job for me.
Tire stagger promotes understeer when you get track in the rear that is larger than track in the front. That is not necessarily bad, just a consequence. However, if you are wanting more aggressive handling capability, increasing the track on your fronts and rears, to a point, can be an enhancement. You may get increased road noise and harshness as a result of the greater contact patch. And, you may also increase the unsprung weight which is not a desireable direction to go, and rolling resistance will increase. You might thus consider within your budget a light weight forged wheel, like the 18" Nismo, with an 8.5" rim and a 245 track width for the front, and a 9.5" rim with a 275 track width for the rear. This will shed several pounds of weight per wheel.
Tire inflation can be used to tickle with understeer/oversteer too, but that technique also can impact adhesion so I wouldn't mess with that as a solution, but only a fine tune. IF you have the Tein flex edfc you certainly won't be doing inflation adjustments for that purpose (you might be bleeding or adding air for psi adjustment resulting from temp fluctuations on the track).
Upper control arms. Though not technically a damper or stiffner, they significantly add to the responsiveness of the steering, and if you lower the car your contact patch is not ideal any longer. The uca will get the fronts back on track and provide better adhesion, thus working to reduce understeer that off camber tires will promote when the car has been lowered. Performance Nissan Racing has a set that I put in and really like. They have a couple of different ball mounts and bushings you can choose from as well.
Good luck, and enjoy your new modifications.
Exactly what I am looking for, thank you so much for your time!
07-03-2004, 04:42 PM
#14
This is the best tuning resourse I've found to date on the net.
http://www.ingallseng.com/performance/primer.html
Grassroot's used to have a really good one on setup, but it's gone. They have great resourse on corner weighting and on shocks.
http://www.ingallseng.com/performance/primer.html
Grassroot's used to have a really good one on setup, but it's gone. They have great resourse on corner weighting and on shocks.
07-03-2004, 07:03 PM
#15
Here's a previously posted thread asking about reducing understeer. It does deal with allowable changes under SOLOII rules however.
https://my350z.com/forum/showthread....ght=understeer
https://my350z.com/forum/showthread....ght=understeer
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