TheFuture

How does the 350Z fare against a E46 M3 ? I can not decide and I will buy one of these cars ?

Zboy

I had debated between the 2 for the longest time myself but after doing some research I am staying away from E46 M3s. Perhaps this site will shed some light on my decision.

http://members.roadfly.com/jason/m3engines.htm

Mind you, there are several other message boards which have people complaining about engine failures. Do you really want to spend $50,000+ on a car which you will be afraid to break everytime you push it to the limit?

Boomer

I was one of those people who was going to buy an M3 until I realized I would have to accept every unwanted accessory the Dealer wanted put on the car! Not acceptable to me at $55,000 or more, no bargain and no choice. With the Z I had a choice of options and models and I love the drivetrain, body design and the fact its a two seater sports car.

Somewhere on this site, is a link to a BMW site where they are discussing all the engine failures the M3 has had in several different countries. The link listed 59 instances of such failures. They seem to be the bottom of the engine ie. bearings, rods and crankshafts mostly.

Moderators, correct me if I'm wrong, but did not BMW start out swearing the engines were being over-revved? How do you overrev an engine with an agressive rev limiter, unless there's something wrong with the limiter too? I have always been a great fan of BMWs, but I became disillusioned when I began to read some of the horror stories about the lack of response from the dealers. I had been planning to buy one for almost two years but their arrogance about their product really turned me off.

BMW sold over 103,000 3 series cars in 2001 and the car mags have extolled their virtues for years, but their quality control seems to have slipped in recent years. I'm glad the 350 Z came out for me to have a choice. After reading the gory details about the M3's engine failures, I wouldn't consider one ever again. The "new" M3 engine, really a hopped up version of their straight 6 from the 60's or 70's with a 7900 redline, packed with go fast goodies and comfort "options". They have said the lateist bumpup in performance for the venerable 6 was about as far as they could go with it. Witness the change over in racing from the 6 to an 8?

Boomer--Sorry about the length of this diatribe but I was appalled at the M3's engine failures and BMW's reported attempts to weasel out of warranty claims. I've lost a great deal of respect for the company recently.

My sister-in-law has a 2000 740iL and they just purchased a Chevy Tahoe(her husband's ride after his 535 bit the dust). Given a choice, both my sister-in-law and her husband would rather drive the Tahoe than the $70,000 BMW for everyday driving. They live in Dallas and drive to Norman often to see my mother-in-law and they have been driving the Tahoe, it now has more miles on it than the 740(whose computer packed it in a short tme ago).

P.S. I owned a 1978 BMW 320i for two years and 43,000 miles, great car except when the outside temp was over 90 degrees, it would vapor-lock if you used the air conditioner; after it vapor-locked in the mountains of Colorado, I got rid of of it. I thought BMW's quality control problems were a thing of the past. I was wrong.

3rdpower

reliability or not... the Z would be blown away by a M3 .

But then again we are talking about a 30k car versus a 55k car

BrianZ

Uh, NOT!

Check your stat's!

Zboy

I wouldnt exactly say blown away, 3rdpower. The New M3 will do 0-60 in about 4.7-4.8 secs. 350z in about 5.2-5.4 secs. I would not exactly say thats blowing out the Z. Besides the price tag of $55k for the car, here's what bothers me most about it. There is little you can add to upgrade the performance of the M3. It's mod potential is very limited. Motorsports has already taken the engine to the limit. Now if you look at the Z, you are getting a close performance to the m3 for just $30k from a NA engine !! AND you have ways to go if you want to mod it. Do you seriously think a supercharged Z cannot keep up with the M3 if not beat it? the only department where the M3 wins hands down is the quality and refinment of the interior.

TCL

This happened quite often with E36 M3's when the driver would accidently downshift into 2nd instead of 4th. When he/she let the clutch out, the speed of the driven wheels would cause the engine to overrev and blow the engine. The missed shifts were caused by a slight rotation of the transmission under load that made the gear shift lever rotate slightly. Some people added stiffer transmission mounts to reduce the rotation.

I don't think this is the same problem that E46's are experiencing.

uf300zx

I think its kind of humerous how some people on this board look at 0-60 times as the final benchmark in performance. It means almost nothing to me compared to 1/4 mile times and skidpad/slalom ratings. When I race people, I don't stop at 60 mph, its to the end of 3 gears which is hitting around 100. The 1/4 mile is where my car can compete, is so dang heavy that it doesn't do much better than a 2.30 60 ft time, so I need that entire race to win.
Now, we know that the Car and Driver numbers are skewed and the 350Z is somewhat faster than the 14.1 @ 101, but its not going to get anywhere close to the E46's 13.3 @ 106.8. Mag racing is stupid, but the numbers are so different it would be hard for me to believe the 350Z would have any chance. A tenth of a second at the end of the 1/4 mile is a car length, so even 5 tenths off is a whooping. In handling, the 350Z is going to hold its own, car is lighter and seems to have a better balanced suspension setup than the E46.

Zboy

And you dont think the 350z with an aftermarket supercharger or turbo kit can do or beat 13.3 1/4 mile?? Like I said, Motorsoprts has left almost no room for E46 to be moded significantly. A 5 or 6 car length loss in a 1/4 mile from a NA engine for $25,000 less ....hmm.... I think I will take it!! An aftermarket NISMO SC unit is all I need to get even or surpass the E46 performance. All this without the fear of E46 engine failure.

rai

I have a few thoughts on the M3 since I was strongly considering one myself.

First the notion that the M3 in not modable is wrong. My friend has an M3 and had an autherized Dinan chip installed at the BMW dealership. He sais that a supercharger kit from dinan is or will be offered that will bump HP up over 400. This will cost like $15K so he is probably not going to do it.

The M3 is very expencive especially if you opt for the SMG you can be looking at $58-59K plus tax. That is more than twice the cost of a 350Z.

The M3 also has a weight problem, it is about 200 lbs more than the 350Z, and the torque is less (I think). Also the 3 series is due for a revision soon and I don't want to buy a top dog to see it being surpassed in a couple of years.

The engine issue is a problem as I have gone to the blown engine site (more than 50 blown) and a lot of the posts state that there was no over-rev and this was backed up by the on-board computer. I guess the owners will not be forced to pay for repair, but there is a lot of inconvenience involved. This may be the reason why people are affraid to mod the engine, it does not appear to be that robust.

Also in this price range, and after seeing the success of the M3 racing car with a V8 I have to say show me the money. I mean, what kind of loop-hole is it that BMW thinks it can race a "production" car, but will not sell one. I think they are afraid to cannibalize M5 sales.

FstQban

As much as I agree with the statements made about the 350Z's performance possibilities with aftermarket parts, I don;t think it is a fair comparison. One cannot compare apples and oranges. If you want to compare performance then you have to pick either modded or unmodded. While from a financial standpoint it makes sense to buy a 350 and add a SC or Turbo, you could always do the same to a Bimmer. If you want to get technical there are CRX's, and Eclipse's out there that run lower 1/4 mile times. Obviously they are not as nice to drive as a 350 or M3, but the performance possibility is always there with the right budget. I just think people should compare cars fairly if they want to do a comparison at all.

3rdpower

Okay blow away may be a bit strong but when comparing cars SPEC for SPEC and not modification versus base model (don't do that:P) I'd say the M3 is just a better all around car. It's an amazing vehicle. If you've ever driven in one you know what I'm talking about. Yeah... I've never driven a 350Z :P but the M3's are just an all around better car. With that said, performance to value ratio the 350Z wins hands down and that is part of the reason why I am choosing the 350Z. The other side of the coin is legacy, reliability, and well... it's a Z :P~

---

You really think Nismo will build a turbo kit for the Z??? hmm... that would be interesting considering the torque curve... make for a very awesome vehicle. My question is cost - a turbo kit seems expensive? I'd say Nissan would release another 350ZX :-/ which would probably fail miserably because that car would easily be in the $45k range and it would sink the re-sell value of my Z like a rock

bigone

I agree with your statement in general, but it can be argued that an M3 is a modified car. It started it's life as a 300ci and was later modified by BMW motorsports.

Zboy

M3 is a mod from factory. Its not a Base Model. Motorsports modifies the M3. Another example, Mustang cobra is a mod from factory. It comes with a supercharger installed from a factory. And yes i have driven the E46, and like I said, it's interior beats 350z interior hands down but performance wise 350Z is very close. In fact, Z has more torque than the M3.

I was looking to buy E46 it about 4 months ago. But 2 friends of mine blew their engines and then referred me to several other people who had same problems. When I asked 3 different BMW dealers if BMW is taking care of these problems, they come back with arrogant comments about how superior their engineering is and that people are simply abusing these machines. Nice way to win customers.

NSANY

You've definitely said a mouthful. I'm getting awfully sick and tired of reading comparos in C&D where they pit Car X against a BMW, and they always come down to the same hackneyed cliche ending...

"While the BMW doesn't outright win in any category, it's the sum of the parts that makes the BMW [insert model here] the absolute joy to drive that it is, and the eventually winner in this contest."

I think the comparisons I like best are the ones where the magazine uses 15 categories on a scale of 1 to 10 (150 possible points). The BMW usually gets 142 of those points, and the 2nd place finisher will come up with 141. Yet the BMW only won because someone gave it a 9 for "styling" as opposed to the 6 that was given to the 2nd place car.

Just goes to show that the media can NEVER be totally objective.

rai

Talk about skewed numbers, the Boxster S and the S2000 in R&T. the Boxster S had a slight lead going into the points for value. The S2000 being the cheapest got 100 (max) points. The Boxster S got like 90 points (even though it costs nearly twice as much) and won by like one point total. I mean if I got 90 points on a test that was like an A. I don't think $56K for a Boxster S deserves an A. I think this is a case where the magazine wanted to pick the Boxster from the start and made up the numbers to go along.


Back to the BMW point, besides being more expensive to buy, BMW's can be very expensive to service. They have some propriotory check-computer that can only be done at the dealer, or some very special shops. Also every 15K miles is costing like $350 or more. I think if you kept both cars for 100Kmiles the BWM will cost far more for service and repairs. People who have a lot of money will not care and say "what do you expect? having the best is expensive"

gammbino350z

please stop the M3 threads. For God's sake use the Search button. it does work

rai

If the thread is not valid it will die on it's own with no help from you. perhapse some people don't want to dig up a 5 month old thread.



BTW I don't buy the argument that thr M3 should not be compaired with the 350Z because it's too expensive. I think a lot of people ARE able to afford the M3, but don't mind saving $20K if they can get a car that they like, and is resonably fast.