Z CRUZN

Installed the StopTeck BBK last week - fronts came with Axxis Ultimate performance pads & the rears with Hawk HPS. Being experienced with the Hawk's & liking them, I decided to try out the Hawk HPS on the front as well. After the first night with them on, the "grip" didn't feel that much different than the feel I had with the Hawk HPS' on my OEM brakes (StopTech told me that, but I had to try it out for myself - ha!). The next morning, I put the supplied Axxis Ultimates on the front & the grip was INSANE - fantastic!! But, the dust is as crazy as the OEM pads on the OEM brakes.

My question....is this gonna be pretty much the trade off for a performance pad - more grip, but more dust? I have a feeling that if I go with ANY low dust pad for the StopTech's ST-40 caliper fronts (Axxis Deluxe Plus, Carbotech Bobcat, Hawk HPS, etc.) the dust will subside, but the performance (insane grip) will as well. I'm just in love with the grip that the Ultimates give, but the dust drives me crazy!! Ha! Any comments / suggestions / experience? Thanks!

stx

No there shouldn't be a trade off. I am running the Pagid Orange pad for street and it has alot more bite and grip with alot less dust than the Axxis pads that come with the Stoptech kit. They do cost more but the are definitely worth the money in my opinion.

daveh

iTrader: (9)

I'll trade you my axxis ultimates for your HPS's. I don't like the dust from the axxis and I don't really care how aggressive my street pads are.

knight_white99

iTrader: (5)

I'm curious about pad alternatives too. You guys are right - just as much dust with the Axxis pads as stock pads. Has anyone tried the Ferodos or Porterfield?

BTW, I use Hawk HT-10 pads with the Stop Techs on the track and they work great and last a long time. I highly recommend them (since Stop Tech says not to use the Ultimates for serious track use). The Hawk HPS rears work great in combo with the HT-10s in front.

Skrill

Pagid Orange are a light duty track pad. They are not designed to be run stone cold like a street pad. They (1) will not have the initial brake torque when cool, (2) will likely squeel a lot!, and (3) will be rougher on your rotors than a street pad.

I have Ultimates on mine -- they work fine, but the dust is pretty bad (and they are noisy unless you bed them in all the time). I will try the Deluxe next time to see if they are quieter.

On the track I use Performance Friction 01s.

GTNPU Z

iTrader: (17)

I've heard Project Mu B-Force Pads were good on grip & light on dust.

https://my350z.com/forum/brakes-and-suspension/117664-update-on-project-mu-brake-pads.html

Z CRUZN

Skrill - Just ordered in & gonna try the Axxis Deluxe Plus pads for the street...StopTech says they dust quite a bit less than the Ultimates, what dust does appear is tan in color vs. black & perform quite well. Won't hurt to try them as my street pads - inexpensive experiment.......

As for the Ultimates, I've had them on for a week now & no squeal - used white lithium grease on the backing plates & around the side edges of the plates...works great! Just tired of the dust even after a week......... If the Deluxe Plus pads don't work out, there's always the Carbotech Bobcats to try next or just say "to heck with the performance on the street" & reinstall the Hawk HPS - ha!

As for the track, I haven't decided yet.....probably will try Perf. Friction 01's F&R or Hawk HT-10 up front & Hawk HP Plus in rear........

stx

The Pagid Orange has alot better initial bite when cold than the Axxis pads which makes them better for street use. They do squeak alot but they are very easy on the rotors just like a street pad. Basically the Pagid Orange is a high performance street pad that can withstand very light track use. I think anyone that tries them will not be disappointed in performance.

racin

iTrader: (1)

For those using the HT10 front and HP Plus rear, I have to say that you are certainly throwing your brake bias towards the rear more than StopTech would like to see. You are overusing the front, which will give a steady feel, but increase stopping distance and wear and tear on the fronts from added heat.

The StopTech kits are made to give balanced performance, which in other words means that brake torque is spread correctly from the front to rear, generally assuming the same compound brake pads. The effect is more easily accomplished when street pads are being used because of their more limited heat range, which means they are going to react less aggressively to heat change.

Because in general we do not heat up the rear pads as much as the front out on track (unless the system has been designed from the beginning for a particular car with a particular weight, weight bias, center of gravity, tire size, and some other things), a lot of people will use a less aggresive rear pad with a lower temperature threshold, to lower the rotor wear rate. The problem with that is normally the less aggressive pad has a lower coefficient of friction, which throws the balance forward again.
With our car,we are trying to equalize front and rear temps so we can use the same pad compound and have them act the same through all the different temperature ranges.

There is more to it than this, but I just wanted to give some general information here.

daveh

iTrader: (9)

You bring up an excellent point, however myself and many others that are tracking the stoptech kits are noticing the exact opposite. I run the same pad front and rear and the rears get much hotter than the fronts after a normal lapping session. I am lucky to get 2 days out of my rear (track) pads. Per porterfield's recommendation, I will be going to a more aggressive front pad to offset the rear bias that I am getting.

Perhaps JRitt can chime in here but I wonder if there is a difference in the testing procedure outlined on their website and a 30 minute lapping session. I also wonder if the EBD is placing more bias on the rears in a track situation because it senses a panic stop. Of course the rear pads being the size of a postage stamp are not in our favor either.

THX723

iTrader: (3)

I too dislike the dusting of the Axxis Ultimates. I was looking to replace the fronts with Hawk HPS as well, but I may have to reconsider now. I'm curious ... did you get a chance to really bed those HPS in?

It's not uncommon that switching to different brand/model pads requires at least a few full bed-in session for them to properly seat. I'm having have to do this every time I switch between street and track pads (Cobalt Spec VR). I find the Ultimate swep a little wider covering all the way to the edge of the rotor, while my VRs are just short of the edge. After 1 long day at a track, the VRs will create an ever so slight lip around the edge of the rotors ... causing the Ultimates to not seat correctly, unless I bed them in really really good (3-4 times).

Has anyone tried the Carbotech Bobcats? I've some experience w. them before and would say they are near the Hawk HP+ level and without the rotor abbresiveness.

Z CRUZN

STX - How long have you had your Pagid Orange's on? I asked StopTech about them & they mentioned that they have a habit of leaving uneven pad deposits on the rotors which eventually will give that "warped" rotor feel after time. I've also read several posts on various websites that mention they are rough on the rotors...maybe due to the pad deposit??? Maybe you can post more results on your Orange's and change the opinion of some.... As for the squeal, I think that would irritate me even more than the dust - ha!

I think I'm just in the position of trying to decide between low dust / less performance vs. more dust / better performance for my street pads. As I mentioned, I'm going to try the Axxis Deluxe Plus front pads tomorrow & compare their performance to the Hawk HPS - both are low dust..I'll see which ones perform the best. At this point, I'm willing to sacrifice a little "grip" for less dust on the street and no squeal. We'll see.....

racin

iTrader: (1)

Just because the pad only lasts a certain amount of time is not an indicator of how hot it is getting. The pads you are speaking of are no doubt the stock, non-Brembo units, and they have no business being on track at all. More aggressive front pads won't help you except that the fronts will do more work, getting hotter and extending your braking distances (of course the more aggressive compound might offset the mismatched f/r bias and give you similar stopping distances). Get some rears that have more pad surface area, be it by getting used Brembos and seeing if your front piston sizes will work correctly with the Brembos, or I can work with StopTech (we are a dealer) to perhaps come up with a matched rear for your front kit. Don't bother with pad changes to extend rear pad life... You'll be unsuccessfully trying to solve one problem while creating another.

And oh yes, the EBD does try to cover a multitude of sins...

knight_white99

iTrader: (5)

Racin,

I am confused by what you said. You say that we are shifting bias to the rear, but overusing the fronts with the HT-10 and HPS combo.

If you shift bias to the rear, then the rear brakes are doing more work, not the fronts. How can this overuse the fronts?

I have stillen slotted rotors on the rear. These have temperature sensitive paint on them which turns either white or orange when a certain temperature is reached. To date, I have only reached the first of three temperature levels (1st level is 458C, 2nd is 550C and third is 630C). This tells me that I am not overusing the rears. Plus, the Stop Tech fronts are working very well - I am not getting any fade and pad wear (and from what I can tell) rotor wear is very good as well. I have noticed no change in braking distances throughout a 30 minute lapping session. If I am overusing the fronts, I think that is preferable, since the Stop Techs have much more cooling capacity. As was mentioned, the rear pad size is very small. So if I can make them last longer by using the fronts harder, I am happy to do that.

racin

iTrader: (1)

Ooops. In my original post, the first line should have said that the bias was being forced to the fronts, AWAY from the rear. Sorry about that. I'll try to go back and edit that.

Now with that cleared up, the other things I said should make sense. You mention what the rear temps are doing, but not the fronts. Your temps in the rear are falling somewhere between 856 and 1022 degrees in the rear. Hawk Blue (9012) are rated to 1000 degrees (I hate those pads). Hawk Black's are rated out to 900 degrees. Your HPS's are not rated to that type of temperature, so I would think that you are at best on the ragged edge of the HPS's range.

Now, my point about over-working the front brakes was not meant to say that the fronts would be overworked to the point of failure or premature fade. Simply that the benefits of a balanced brake package would not be realized. Your 30 minute stint might not show any signs of change in the brake performance even though your fronts are handling more of the load than is optimal. Again, you are handicapping your ultimate brake performance in a quest to put a band-aid on the improper rear brake setup. The StopTech kit is good (do you have 13" or 14" front?), and you may think you are realizing it's full potential in both performance and longevity, but I believe that if you were to go to a more aggressive rear pad, you will see some increase in brake performance, though your pad wear rate will still be horrible because of the tiny surface area.

Another question to consider is how much actual strain you are putting on your brake system. What tires and sizes are being used? What power level is the car? What are your times at what tracks with the car in question? These will help focus the needs of your braking system. We run out nearly 3300 pound, 400+ HP Z at Sebring, where we have at times experienced temps upwards of 1400 degrees, with good success from the StopTech 14" front brakes. We had custom front piston sizing done which was very good for a car using street tires, but it became unbalanced when we went to slicks. It should come back to us once we have a stiffer suspension and lower CG dialed in. But we use the same compound front and rear, and have been able to balance our bias and rear pad wear (we use the stock rear Brembos). Luckily, we are only doing sprint races at the moment, though the rears would be fine for up to a six hour enduro.

My point in all of this is simply to say that if you want to optimize your brake performance, you should try to use pads that have the same set of traits as they go through their respective heat ranges.

I noticed in your sig the milestones you've listed. I'd love to discuss them if you'd care to PM me.

knight_white99

iTrader: (5)

Okay, now I think we are on the same page as far as brake bias understanding.

What you say about the HPS pads may be true - I might very well be on the edge of their performance envelope. At the time, I did not have access to any other rear pads (other than stock - which I will never use on the track again since I wore them out in less than one track day!). I do have a lot of experience with Performance Friction pads, but not in the Z.

I have since purchased some EBC RedStuff pads, but have not yet had a chance to try them (any opinion?). I will hopefully get a chance to use them at a track day at Firebird Int'. Raceway (main track) on May 6th. I'll let you know how it goes. I would be open to any opinions that you might have about what would be a better combo for the track.

It is also true that I have not pushed as hard on the track with this car as I would in a real race car in a real race. This is still my street car, though it is now heavily modified. So perhaps in full race conditions, I would experience some problems with my current combination. However, I am currently able to run about 4 seconds faster than a stock 350Z also on street tires (I was using shaved 256/35-18 Toyo T1-S take off/throw aways from last years Speed World Challenge cars on 18x9 wheels - all around - great balance this way). I figure I have about 320hp at the flyhweel (I am making 260hp at the wheels on the dyno).

For the May 6th track day, I will be switching to Dunlop SP Sport Race tires (since I wore out the Toyos in only 2 track days). This will be my first time on race rubber with this car. We'll see how that impacts everything... I'm expecting two seconds per lap improvement, which will of course work the brakes harder.

I would be happy to PM you this weekend to discuss other racing issues and swap some stories (I have MANY). Gotta hit the sack now to get up at 4:45AM for work!

stx

I have have had my Pagid Orange on my car for about a year and a half. I orginally had the Axxis pads that come with the Stoptech kit but I thought they were terrrible. In my opinion the Axxis released to much dust and didn't have a good initial bite in comparision to the oem brakes that come with the Z. I had bought a set of Pagid Orange to run track events but after I bedded them in I realized they worked great on the street so I started using them for everyday driving. What I liked about the Pagid Orange is that they have a have a very good initial bite (even when cold) and the pads can hold that level until you surpass the pads max operating temperature. Here is a link from Pagid on there friction curve.
http://www.braketechnology.com/techi...#frictiongraph

As far as uneven pad deposits or being rough on rotors, I have never experienced that at all. Now the Pagid Black (which is a true track pad) is rough on rotors. The Black will groove your rotor and crack it eventually.

The Orange pad does squeal. Mine only squeal on when I am on a hill and a barely holding the brake and the car is slightly roll backward. Under normal street driving I have never hear them squeal but they might I just can't hear it. I think proper bedding in also determines if they squeal or not. Actually I remember my Axxis squealling also. I was thinking about putting backing titanium backing plates and putting grease between the plate and the back of the pad to see if it would stop squeaking.

daveh

iTrader: (9)

Nick you make some excellent points, while certainly not wanting to mask the ultimate problem of the small rear brake pad size, it is probably more common for race teams to run different pads front and rear than it is to run the same pads all four corners. Many world challenge cars use pf01's up front and 97's in the rear. A winning nascar team used st41/st43 combo from raybestos. In my case, after a 30 minute session I am finding that my R4 pads (same pad used front and rear) are getting hotter in the rear. Probably because they have less cooling capacity than the stoptech's up front.
My next day out, I will actually be using raybestos st43's in the rear and the R4's up front (simply because I still have life left on the porterfields). This will place more bias on the rear but I am curios to see how the raybestos hold up since they can withstand higher temps. If they raybestos are as good as two of my trusted sources say, I'll make a decision of which one of their compounds I'll use up front.
I just checked out your website and read the chronological reports from your Z. You have a great log going on there and a nice looking Z. I'll be contacting you shortly regarding your ducting kit.

Z CRUZN

STX - Thanks for the input on the Pagid Orange....will try them later for some track time (if I ever get there). I got the Axxis Deluxe Plus front pads in today (overnight from StopTech) & just got back from the install. BTW, I just love the ease of installing pads now - ha! After bedding them, then driving 35+ miles back to my place, the dust...or lack of....is GREAT! No more dust than the Hawk HPS had on my OEM calipers - I'm smilin' again!!! The performance feels about like the HPS' had on my OEM's as well - of course, not as "grippy" as the Ultimates," but still a good, firm, grip-acceptable feeling for the street. Very happy with them! Used the white lithium grease again (on backing plates & plate edges that come in contact with any metal) - no squeak (in fact I've never had a brake squeak with any pads I've done - BBK or OEM - lucky fella here!).

Now have the like-new Ultimates for a little auto-x time & the Deluxe Plus' for the street (still have the Hawk HPS on the rears for both activities). And the icing on the cake is the pricing of either set of Axxis' - super affordable!!! I'm a happy BBK-guy!!!