Turbonetics Install Complete and dynoed!!
05-12-2005, 10:13 AM
#81
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Originally Posted by SpeedDreamTuner
I'll take my camera in today, are you guys looking for just some street vids? We took the car off the dyno 
but maybe we can get something else.
but maybe we can get something else.Heh.. 11psi? What kind of 'minor problems' did you experience at this level of boost?
05-12-2005, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by taurran
That would be awesome. I'm also interested in hearing what the raptor BoV sounds like.
Heh.. 11psi? What kind of 'minor problems' did you experience at this level of boost?
Heh.. 11psi? What kind of 'minor problems' did you experience at this level of boost?
05-12-2005, 11:14 AM
#83
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pretty much i want to hear/see the car how it sounds accelerating from a dead stop, highway roll, high speed, inside the car, outside, etc, vs. a stock 350z... you know, the usual 
whatever you can compile.
whatever you can compile.
05-12-2005, 01:46 PM
#84
I know the horse is pretty much dead, but I wanted to contribute one last thought on the whole altitude discussion. While air is less dense at altitude, the ratio of nitrogen to oxygen is roughly the same as at sea-level. That ratio is roughly 3:1 (with a few other gases like argon and CO2 comprising roughly 1%).
The measurement "PSI" is an expression of amount of "gas per volume", as measured by the outward pressure the molecules exhibit against their container (in this case the manifold chamber where the boost measurement is taken) at a zero or fixed flow rate (The higher the flow rate, the lower the pressure). The more molecules you pack into a fixed volume of space, the higher the pressure.
The point of the previous two statements is to exhibit that 1 PSI in a closed system at sea-level is exactly the same as 1 PSI at 5000 feet because it takes the same number of molecules to create the pressure on the container.
The difference between an F/I application at sea-level and one at 5000 feet is that a turbine wheel at altitude must turn faster to reach the same pressure because it must push a larger volume of atmospheric (and thusly less dense) air into the manifold to reach the same molecular count per volume.
The result indicates that a Turbo system configured for 8 PSI at sea-level will reach 8 PSI at altitude, it will just take a longer period of time to do so because the turbine must reach a higher velocity to achieve the pressure.
Since the wastegate operation is driven by manifold pressure (which is pressure against the walls of the manifold chamber, NOT pressure relative to atmosphere), it is unbiased by atmospheric variance. It will begin opening whenever the intake turbine has generated the necessary pressure to cause it to do so, with no regard for how fast the turbine is spinning to achieve that pressure or how long it takes to do so.
The end result of all of this is that the largest effect of altitude on a turbo system is lag. It will take a high altitude system a fraction of time longer to reach a given boost pressure because the time it takes the turbine to reach 8 PSI worth of velocity is longer. Therefore, the turbine must turn faster through the entire engine RPM band to keep the pressure "equivalent" to operation at sea-level. Longer spool times equal less power.
It is proof that a turbo system should generate the same level of boost at sea-level as it will at 5K feet if all other factors are equal.
Turbo cars are slower at altitude because it is easier for the engine to "keep up" with the compression rate of the intake turbine, thus the turbine is constantly having to spool to a higher RPM than its' sea-level counterpart. The graph of this is likely linear, indicating that the power differential does not grow as RPM or power output increases.
A good example is two cars that are accelerating at the same rate, but begin acceleration 5 seconds apart. If car A starts accelerating at 1 mph/second, and then car b starts accelerating at the same rate but five seconds later , then car A will always be going 5 MPH faster than car B even though they are expending the same amount of energy. Apply this scenario to turbines where the high altitude kit is car B and the sea-level kit is car A. Turbine A will demonstrate more power because it got an "earlier start" into the power band than Turbine B did, even though they are generating the same amount of energy.
My head hurts....
All that B.S. aside, I'm very happy to hear that the kit is pleasing you. I have one ordered and a shop lined up to do the work. May I ask if there are any "gotchas" that we should prepare for during the install, or was it pretty straight forward? I know that Turbonetics is in "version 2" of the installation instructions, but how did you find them to be? Fairly clear?
Also, I was wondering if the ECU reflash is 'customized' to account for aftermarket mods like exhaust, plenum, etc. or if the reflash is intelligent enough to take all of these things into account when maintaining A/F ratio.
The measurement "PSI" is an expression of amount of "gas per volume", as measured by the outward pressure the molecules exhibit against their container (in this case the manifold chamber where the boost measurement is taken) at a zero or fixed flow rate (The higher the flow rate, the lower the pressure). The more molecules you pack into a fixed volume of space, the higher the pressure.
The point of the previous two statements is to exhibit that 1 PSI in a closed system at sea-level is exactly the same as 1 PSI at 5000 feet because it takes the same number of molecules to create the pressure on the container.
The difference between an F/I application at sea-level and one at 5000 feet is that a turbine wheel at altitude must turn faster to reach the same pressure because it must push a larger volume of atmospheric (and thusly less dense) air into the manifold to reach the same molecular count per volume.
The result indicates that a Turbo system configured for 8 PSI at sea-level will reach 8 PSI at altitude, it will just take a longer period of time to do so because the turbine must reach a higher velocity to achieve the pressure.
Since the wastegate operation is driven by manifold pressure (which is pressure against the walls of the manifold chamber, NOT pressure relative to atmosphere), it is unbiased by atmospheric variance. It will begin opening whenever the intake turbine has generated the necessary pressure to cause it to do so, with no regard for how fast the turbine is spinning to achieve that pressure or how long it takes to do so.
The end result of all of this is that the largest effect of altitude on a turbo system is lag. It will take a high altitude system a fraction of time longer to reach a given boost pressure because the time it takes the turbine to reach 8 PSI worth of velocity is longer. Therefore, the turbine must turn faster through the entire engine RPM band to keep the pressure "equivalent" to operation at sea-level. Longer spool times equal less power.
It is proof that a turbo system should generate the same level of boost at sea-level as it will at 5K feet if all other factors are equal.
Turbo cars are slower at altitude because it is easier for the engine to "keep up" with the compression rate of the intake turbine, thus the turbine is constantly having to spool to a higher RPM than its' sea-level counterpart. The graph of this is likely linear, indicating that the power differential does not grow as RPM or power output increases.
A good example is two cars that are accelerating at the same rate, but begin acceleration 5 seconds apart. If car A starts accelerating at 1 mph/second, and then car b starts accelerating at the same rate but five seconds later , then car A will always be going 5 MPH faster than car B even though they are expending the same amount of energy. Apply this scenario to turbines where the high altitude kit is car B and the sea-level kit is car A. Turbine A will demonstrate more power because it got an "earlier start" into the power band than Turbine B did, even though they are generating the same amount of energy.
My head hurts....
All that B.S. aside, I'm very happy to hear that the kit is pleasing you. I have one ordered and a shop lined up to do the work. May I ask if there are any "gotchas" that we should prepare for during the install, or was it pretty straight forward? I know that Turbonetics is in "version 2" of the installation instructions, but how did you find them to be? Fairly clear?
Also, I was wondering if the ECU reflash is 'customized' to account for aftermarket mods like exhaust, plenum, etc. or if the reflash is intelligent enough to take all of these things into account when maintaining A/F ratio.
05-12-2005, 01:58 PM
#85
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Originally Posted by kcobean
I know the horse is pretty much dead, but I wanted to contribute one last thought on the whole altitude discussion. While air is less dense at altitude, the ratio of nitrogen to oxygen is roughly the same as at sea-level. That ratio is roughly 3:1 (with a few other gases like argon and CO2 comprising roughly 1%).
The measurement "PSI" is an expression of amount of "gas per volume", as measured by the outward pressure the molecules exhibit against their container (in this case the manifold chamber where the boost measurement is taken) at a zero or fixed flow rate (The higher the flow rate, the lower the pressure). The more molecules you pack into a fixed volume of space, the higher the pressure.
The point of the previous two statements is to exhibit that 1 PSI in a closed system at sea-level is exactly the same as 1 PSI at 5000 feet because it takes the same number of molecules to create the pressure on the container.
The difference between an F/I application at sea-level and one at 5000 feet is that a turbine wheel at altitude must turn faster to reach the same pressure because it must push a larger volume of atmospheric (and thusly less dense) air into the manifold to reach the same molecular count per volume.
The result indicates that a Turbo system configured for 8 PSI at sea-level will reach 8 PSI at altitude, it will just take a longer period of time to do so because the turbine must reach a higher velocity to achieve the pressure.
Since the wastegate operation is driven by manifold pressure (which is pressure against the walls of the manifold chamber, NOT pressure relative to atmosphere), it is unbiased by atmospheric variance. It will begin opening whenever the intake turbine has generated the necessary pressure to cause it to do so, with no regard for how fast the turbine is spinning to achieve that pressure or how long it takes to do so.
The end result of all of this is that the largest effect of altitude on a turbo system is lag. It will take a high altitude system a fraction of time longer to reach a given boost pressure because the time it takes the turbine to reach 8 PSI worth of velocity is longer. Therefore, the turbine must turn faster through the entire engine RPM band to keep the pressure "equivalent" to operation at sea-level. Longer spool times equal less power.
It is proof that a turbo system should generate the same level of boost at sea-level as it will at 5K feet if all other factors are equal.
Turbo cars are slower at altitude because it is easier for the engine to "keep up" with the compression rate of the intake turbine, thus the turbine is constantly having to spool to a higher RPM than its' sea-level counterpart. The graph of this is likely linear, indicating that the power differential does not grow as RPM or power output increases.
A good example is two cars that are accelerating at the same rate, but begin acceleration 5 seconds apart. If car A starts accelerating at 1 mph/second, and then car b starts accelerating at the same rate but five seconds later , then car A will always be going 5 MPH faster than car B even though they are expending the same amount of energy. Apply this scenario to turbines where the high altitude kit is car B and the sea-level kit is car A. Turbine A will demonstrate more power because it got an "earlier start" into the power band than Turbine B did, even though they are generating the same amount of energy.
My head hurts....
All that B.S. aside, I'm very happy to hear that the kit is pleasing you. I have one ordered and a shop lined up to do the work. May I ask if there are any "gotchas" that we should prepare for during the install, or was it pretty straight forward? I know that Turbonetics is in "version 2" of the installation instructions, but how did you find them to be? Fairly clear?
Also, I was wondering if the ECU reflash is 'customized' to account for aftermarket mods like exhaust, plenum, etc. or if the reflash is intelligent enough to take all of these things into account when maintaining A/F ratio.
The measurement "PSI" is an expression of amount of "gas per volume", as measured by the outward pressure the molecules exhibit against their container (in this case the manifold chamber where the boost measurement is taken) at a zero or fixed flow rate (The higher the flow rate, the lower the pressure). The more molecules you pack into a fixed volume of space, the higher the pressure.
The point of the previous two statements is to exhibit that 1 PSI in a closed system at sea-level is exactly the same as 1 PSI at 5000 feet because it takes the same number of molecules to create the pressure on the container.
The difference between an F/I application at sea-level and one at 5000 feet is that a turbine wheel at altitude must turn faster to reach the same pressure because it must push a larger volume of atmospheric (and thusly less dense) air into the manifold to reach the same molecular count per volume.
The result indicates that a Turbo system configured for 8 PSI at sea-level will reach 8 PSI at altitude, it will just take a longer period of time to do so because the turbine must reach a higher velocity to achieve the pressure.
Since the wastegate operation is driven by manifold pressure (which is pressure against the walls of the manifold chamber, NOT pressure relative to atmosphere), it is unbiased by atmospheric variance. It will begin opening whenever the intake turbine has generated the necessary pressure to cause it to do so, with no regard for how fast the turbine is spinning to achieve that pressure or how long it takes to do so.
The end result of all of this is that the largest effect of altitude on a turbo system is lag. It will take a high altitude system a fraction of time longer to reach a given boost pressure because the time it takes the turbine to reach 8 PSI worth of velocity is longer. Therefore, the turbine must turn faster through the entire engine RPM band to keep the pressure "equivalent" to operation at sea-level. Longer spool times equal less power.
It is proof that a turbo system should generate the same level of boost at sea-level as it will at 5K feet if all other factors are equal.
Turbo cars are slower at altitude because it is easier for the engine to "keep up" with the compression rate of the intake turbine, thus the turbine is constantly having to spool to a higher RPM than its' sea-level counterpart. The graph of this is likely linear, indicating that the power differential does not grow as RPM or power output increases.
A good example is two cars that are accelerating at the same rate, but begin acceleration 5 seconds apart. If car A starts accelerating at 1 mph/second, and then car b starts accelerating at the same rate but five seconds later , then car A will always be going 5 MPH faster than car B even though they are expending the same amount of energy. Apply this scenario to turbines where the high altitude kit is car B and the sea-level kit is car A. Turbine A will demonstrate more power because it got an "earlier start" into the power band than Turbine B did, even though they are generating the same amount of energy.
My head hurts....
All that B.S. aside, I'm very happy to hear that the kit is pleasing you. I have one ordered and a shop lined up to do the work. May I ask if there are any "gotchas" that we should prepare for during the install, or was it pretty straight forward? I know that Turbonetics is in "version 2" of the installation instructions, but how did you find them to be? Fairly clear?
Also, I was wondering if the ECU reflash is 'customized' to account for aftermarket mods like exhaust, plenum, etc. or if the reflash is intelligent enough to take all of these things into account when maintaining A/F ratio.
05-12-2005, 02:02 PM
#86
Originally Posted by MIAPLAYA
The ECU is capable of adjusting fuel flow based on how lean or rich the car is. If you add another air breathing mod the ECU should compensate for the extra air by adding more fuel. This will of course change once the MAF voltage is at max and the ECU switches to RPM based enrichment. At that point I wold consider a tweak to the maps...The only way to know for sure would be to install the mod and then dyno or drive the car to say where your AFR lies after the mod...
05-12-2005, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by kcobean
Would you anticipate that something like the GReddy EVO2 exhaust (with the front "Y" hacked off for a custom downpipe attachment) is severe enough to reach that magical max-voltage limit on the MAF or am I probably ok?
05-12-2005, 04:47 PM
#88
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Originally Posted by kcobean
I
The end result of all of this is that the largest effect of altitude on a turbo system is lag. It will take a high altitude system a fraction of time longer to reach a given boost pressure because the time it takes the turbine to reach 8 PSI worth of velocity is longer. Therefore, the turbine must turn faster through the entire engine RPM band to keep the pressure "equivalent" to operation at sea-level. Longer spool times equal less power.
It is proof that a turbo system should generate the same level of boost at sea-level as it will at 5K feet if all other factors are equal.
.
The end result of all of this is that the largest effect of altitude on a turbo system is lag. It will take a high altitude system a fraction of time longer to reach a given boost pressure because the time it takes the turbine to reach 8 PSI worth of velocity is longer. Therefore, the turbine must turn faster through the entire engine RPM band to keep the pressure "equivalent" to operation at sea-level. Longer spool times equal less power.
It is proof that a turbo system should generate the same level of boost at sea-level as it will at 5K feet if all other factors are equal.
.
05-12-2005, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by kcobean
All that B.S. aside, I'm very happy to hear that the kit is pleasing you. I have one ordered and a shop lined up to do the work. May I ask if there are any "gotchas" that we should prepare for during the install, or was it pretty straight forward? I know that Turbonetics is in "version 2" of the installation instructions, but how did you find them to be? Fairly clear?
Also, I was wondering if the ECU reflash is 'customized' to account for aftermarket mods like exhaust, plenum, etc. or if the reflash is intelligent enough to take all of these things into account when maintaining A/F ratio.
Some people are just to stubborn or something to grasp the concept. I think we'd have to talk to the installer to really get a good grasp on the 'gotchas' however to be real honest, after reading through the instructions and seeing the kit, there was only one or two small things we changed. The power steering cooler and the blow off valve so it wouldn't rub on the hood. The instructions are VERY clear, strait forward, probably one of the best around. The overall professionalism of the kit is just awesome. It really is something you can put in the wifes car and maintain perfect driveability.
So far, we've sold on the quality of the ECU reflash. We've changed boost up and down, changed intakes, and the A/F has been dead on. It's maintained perfectly.
05-12-2005, 05:57 PM
#90
Originally Posted by SpeedDreamTuner
Great explanation. Some people are just to stubborn or something to grasp the concept.
I think we'd have to talk to the installer to really get a good grasp on the 'gotchas' however to be real honest, after reading through the instructions and seeing the kit, there was only one or two small things we changed. The power steering cooler and the blow off valve so it wouldn't rub on the hood. The instructions are VERY clear, strait forward, probably one of the best around. The overall professionalism of the kit is just awesome. It really is something you can put in the wifes car and maintain perfect driveability.
So far, we've sold on the quality of the ECU reflash. We've changed boost up and down, changed intakes, and the A/F has been dead on. It's maintained perfectly.
Some people are just to stubborn or something to grasp the concept. I think we'd have to talk to the installer to really get a good grasp on the 'gotchas' however to be real honest, after reading through the instructions and seeing the kit, there was only one or two small things we changed. The power steering cooler and the blow off valve so it wouldn't rub on the hood. The instructions are VERY clear, strait forward, probably one of the best around. The overall professionalism of the kit is just awesome. It really is something you can put in the wifes car and maintain perfect driveability.
So far, we've sold on the quality of the ECU reflash. We've changed boost up and down, changed intakes, and the A/F has been dead on. It's maintained perfectly.
Also, you mentioned changing boost, I'm guessing this was through the 'washer change' you mentioned on the wastegate? Is that a safe way to alter boost without use of a boost controller? If so, is it common enough that my shop might know about it? I think I'd like to set this kit to 8 or 8.5 lbs of boost since that seems to be where the 380's at the wheel come from.
I'm VERY happy to hear that the re-tune has been so dead on. I think I'm going to like this kit!
Thanks again for sharing.
). I can do video hosting if needed. Let me know.
05-13-2005, 04:51 PM
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My Raptor BOV does not rub on the hood at all. It mainly depends on the angle of the pipe during install. It should be fine. I have just talked to someone here in Cali who self installed and they also are not having any hood clearance issues...
05-14-2005, 01:00 PM
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...KcoBean,
No hidden surprises except the lack of a 3" v-band clamp, have your shop check all components before starting install. One suggestion we can make is to mount your pwr steering cooler above IC using same bracket, much better location and may even be in the new instructions.
because of altitude and having a 21 ecu (04 roadster 6spd.) I dealt directly with Technosquare and paid extra for what we wanted timing and A/F wise.
I'm very happy with the kit, it's safe being at 10.8 A/F and making 383 whp, 390tq @ 8 lbs of boost. It reminds me alot of my 911 turbo, you will throughly enjoy the system.
Tripp
PS: Adjustment of the intake pipe corrected the bov from grazing the hood..
No hidden surprises except the lack of a 3" v-band clamp, have your shop check all components before starting install. One suggestion we can make is to mount your pwr steering cooler above IC using same bracket, much better location and may even be in the new instructions.
because of altitude and having a 21 ecu (04 roadster 6spd.) I dealt directly with Technosquare and paid extra for what we wanted timing and A/F wise.
I'm very happy with the kit, it's safe being at 10.8 A/F and making 383 whp, 390tq @ 8 lbs of boost. It reminds me alot of my 911 turbo, you will throughly enjoy the system.
Tripp
PS: Adjustment of the intake pipe corrected the bov from grazing the hood..
Last edited by SpeedDreamTuner; 05-14-2005 at 01:02 PM.
05-14-2005, 02:03 PM
#98
Originally Posted by SpeedDreamTuner
...KcoBean,
No hidden surprises except the lack of a 3" v-band clamp, have your shop check all components before starting install. One suggestion we can make is to mount your pwr steering cooler above IC using same bracket, much better location and may even be in the new instructions.
because of altitude and having a 21 ecu (04 roadster 6spd.) I dealt directly with Technosquare and paid extra for what we wanted timing and A/F wise.
I'm very happy with the kit, it's safe being at 10.8 A/F and making 383 whp, 390tq @ 8 lbs of boost. It reminds me alot of my 911 turbo, you will throughly enjoy the system.
Tripp
PS: Adjustment of the intake pipe corrected the bov from grazing the hood..
No hidden surprises except the lack of a 3" v-band clamp, have your shop check all components before starting install. One suggestion we can make is to mount your pwr steering cooler above IC using same bracket, much better location and may even be in the new instructions.
because of altitude and having a 21 ecu (04 roadster 6spd.) I dealt directly with Technosquare and paid extra for what we wanted timing and A/F wise.
I'm very happy with the kit, it's safe being at 10.8 A/F and making 383 whp, 390tq @ 8 lbs of boost. It reminds me alot of my 911 turbo, you will throughly enjoy the system.
Tripp
PS: Adjustment of the intake pipe corrected the bov from grazing the hood..
What was it about the ECU on the '04 roadster that made you not use the standard T-netics reflash?
Thanks very much for the follow up on this stuff.
05-14-2005, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by kcobean
Interesting.....You're not the first to receive the kit with a missing 3" v-band clamp.
05-14-2005, 02:40 PM
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The last word I got from Brad regarding the v band clamps is that all kits that were about to ship were double checked and if missing the clamp was included. Any new kits that ship will have the correct inventory.