DaveFunction2ND

iTrader: (8)

I was using headphones BTW. The TurboXS Tuner Pro has a dedicated knock sensor which was installed next to the stock knock. But headphones only tell you so much.

My silly statement is based on fact. Lets take something that everyone can verify with no chance for confusion.

http://www.dynojet.com/automotive_dy...yno/index.aspx

This is DynoJets "NEW" Load Based Dyno.

So the manufacturer of your dyno is now making a load based dyno. This brings one of two options with a possible but similair third as to why they have done this.

1. They realize that an interia dyno is not the correct tool for tunning.

2. They have lost to many sales to Load Based dynos, which in turn points to the fact that the actual tuners in this country that have done their research find a load based dyno to be a much better tuning tool so they are buying load based dyno.

3. So many dyno purchasers are asking for load based dynos that DynoJet saw an opportunity in the marketplace. That still falls back into the catagory of #2.

Let me add a little more information. Here are some logs from a Turbonetics UTEC tune that was completed on the street. Following that are the logs from the UTEC once it was run on a DynoJet.

Note how the AFRs are SIGNIFICANTLY DIFFERENT and the Boost is also VERY LOW on the dyno pulls. The boost is not correct becasue we cannot "Load" the motor properly.

STREET LOGS



DynoJet Logs

4TH GEAR (note how short the run is compared to the street logs)



5TH Gear (Note boost and AFR's are still not correct compared to the street but length of the run is closer)



Let compare Apples to Apples

DynoDynamics 4TH Gear Dyno Pull



DynoDynamics 4TH Gear Street Pull (Note Boost AND AFR's are very similiar. Also the Run length is similiar becasue I am able to control how fast the car accelerates on the Dyno.)



Ultimately it comes down to this, which we can all agree on.

The quality of the tune all comes down to the quality of the tuner and wether or not he knows how to use the tools he has. If "talent" is another word for a good guesser then you are correct. I don't have to guess as much on the DD thus I can make a more precise tune.

DaveFunction2ND

iTrader: (8)

No problem. It was completely out of my control. Mike is the ONLY tuner at AAM. He will not allow ANYONE else to tune. I learned through reading, and testing my own cars. Mike does not feel confident street tuning and this is one of the many many reasons I left there. He will not show anyone what he does and he will not tune a car properly. That is why his cars blow up at even low HP levels.

IIQuickSilverII

iTrader: (13)

+1

DaveFunction2ND

iTrader: (8)

Are you kidding me? So your arguements all come down the the manufacturer? So you WOULD get a LOAD based dyno. Hmmmm...

phunk

iTrader: (21)

a load based dyno OBVIOUSLY assists in the tuning process. of course dynojet would release load dynos, its expected that they would update their products and add new features.

however, if you know how, you can easily tune on an inertia dyno. to tune on any dyno and not hit the street afterwords in not very effective. a load dyno will just reduce your time on the street.

as for "real" versus "fake" hp... in the united states the dynojet is the comparison standard. i dont really care if the dynojet is mathimatically correct with its calculations, i care that its not manipulated with operator controlled correction factors and its amazingly repeatable making it very easy to compare your setup to the next guys (and thats why most of us are here, cause we want to be faster then the next guy along with just enjoying our cars). if you want to compare apples to apples, you do a few pulls on one after your tuning on whatever dyno just so you can play the game. a dynojet at or near sea level is still the most fair and trustworthy comparison.

Audible Mayhem

iTrader: (48)

you are missing the point, i never once said that load based dynos arent better for tuning, i said, people can tune WOT and for power just fine with a dynojet.


you said its not possible that we are guessing??


gman asked if money is not an option , what would i buy??


if you made 563 on stock block you should trap high 120s all day. put up some numbers and then make another post. thats all we ask. you cant correct trap speeds...



do you always max out the injectors??

sentry65

iTrader: (11)

just for reference, how long have Dave and the guys at Function Tuned been tuning cars?

I know Sam at GTM has been running GTM for something like 16 years. I'd guess he's been tuning at least that long at a minimum.

He told me they're planning on getting a dyno-dynamics in addition to their dynojet. They already have the hole cut into the concrete (see foreground in picture) and a 2nd garage door for it. The resources and scale of that place are staggering. I'm used to going to smaller shops with 2, maybe 3 lifts and a single dyno, and can maybe fit a total of 7 or 8 cars in their building at the absolute most with cars on top of each other up on and under the lifts

DaveFunction2ND

iTrader: (8)

I posted my data logs. There was a significant difference between the DynoJet and the street. The DynoDynamics shows little difference between logs on the street and the dyno. That means on the street all I am doing is refining and not making significant changes.

I don't trust the duty cycle on the UTEC. The fact that I was able to go to up to 18PSI and still run correct AFR's tells me that the UTEC is wrong.

Sorry, I'm not a drag racer so I will not be going to the track or posting up any time. The point of the exercise was showing what could be done with proper tuning and 18PSI on a STOCK BLOCK. Impressive by anyones standards DynoJet or DynoDynamics. Which we then promptly blew up on the street. So I guess that sits well with your position. But I've tuned on DynoJets, Mustangs, and DynoDynamics.

You still have not answered my question. Have you ever tuned on anything else?

IIQuickSilverII

iTrader: (13)

well i agree with your post until you pulled the size of the shop... i mean... it should be the years of experience he has all you needed to point, the rest really doesn't mean its a better shop. You can see shops that big at some dealers shops, but it doesn't mean they are good.
In any case +1 on how many years has Dave been tunning?
Bottom line dyno jet is industry standard.. but i could care less which dyno they use as long as the tune is good

sentry65

iTrader: (11)

I was just pointing out the scale of resources GTM has in addition to Sam's 16+ years of tuning experience. I know there's a lot of really great tuners on the forums and I'd never knock them. But even a lot of them have less than 3 or 4 years of professional tuning experience under their belt

I agree though, the quality and experience of the tuner is the most important part to getting a good tune

Trav4011

iTrader: (2)

No disrespect.. but, a good tuner knows better than to risk the customer's car, or lives of others by tuning on the highway.. Sure, we all speed from time to time.. but, triple digit speeds on the highway, while you're trying to datalog, or pay attention to gauges.. listen for knock.. is very risky. We used to tune this way.. but, over the years, we realized how big of a risk we were taking, and stopped.

There's no reason that you can't perfectly tune a vehicle on a load based dyno.. You can simulate any condition that you would see on the highway with a load based dyno.

Trav4011

iTrader: (2)

It doesn't matter if it's 2 years, or 20 years.. Maybe the guy that has been tuning for 20 years, has been doing it wrong for 20 years.. while the guy who has been tuning for 2 years, has learned the safe/proper way. Not saying that Sam is doing it wrong.. I'm just saying that years of experience doesn't really matter. You either know how to tune, or you don't..

sentry65

iTrader: (11)

who said anything about doing triple digits on a highway?

When Sam and I were driving around, they were pretty much on back roads in the middle of nowhere or industrial zones where there was no traffic. At least when I was in the car driving, we didn't reach triple digits. A lot of the tuning was just seeing how the car responds to normal everyday driving as well as WOT.

Gman2004

iTrader: (8)

I got the best of both worlds. Sam tuned my car on Sharif's heartbreaker DD.

Gman2004

iTrader: (8)

When Sam was street tuning my car I took that biatch just a little bit past 130 MPH on I-75. Sam said I was a crazy ****.

sentry65

iTrader: (11)

I agree.
But when you have a tuner that does know what they're doing, and has spent a really long long time doing it, they've picked up more things and have seen more over the years than someone that's also really good, but been tuning for 6 months and has tuned a total of maybe 100-200 cars

Trav4011

iTrader: (2)

The point is.. tuning on the highway is dangerous. Call it what you will, but, I've seen several people hurt/killed in accidents where they were tuning on a high horsepower vehicle. So, why risk it? Would you feel comfortable with a tuner driving your car around on the highway, with his eyes glued to a laptop, trying to tune your car? Or, would you rather the car be on a dyno, with absolute control over everything, including conditions that you could simulate on the highway?

sentry65

iTrader: (11)

see I knew this would turn into a road tuning vs load dyno tuning thread...

I dunno they both have their strengths. You don't have to do triple digit speeds on a highway though for road tuning. You can go WOT on a back road far from any other cars and pull over or stop on the road to look at the data and make tweaks, then do it over again. I didn't really have a problem with Sam driving my car around to log some data. Just driving around town normal can get you killed these days

Motormouth

iTrader: (44)

I am all for the road tuning.

people die from breathing in the exhuast fumes or not properly tying down the car too...

sentry65

iTrader: (11)

yeah I mean people have been hurt standing over the engine while it's being run hard on the dyno and then it blowing up and getting shrapnel in their head.

Obviously you can minimize risk on the dyno by keeping people away from the car just like you can minimize risk on the roads by not being a reckless driver in the middle of heavy traffic at triple digit speeds

Ideally we'd all have access to an oval track for the day to tune on.


The other thing is a lot of tuners just do standard cookie cutter tuning. Like installing a turbo kit and then tweaking the stock map that came with the kit. Doing a full out standalone tune from complete scratch - which ignore the factory's stock ECU parameters completely for WOT and non WOT situations, and dialing all those parameters in - not just A/F and timing, and doing all this on a highly modified big whp car with a completely different than stock engine is a totally different ball game than just tweaking A/F and timing and calling yourself a "tuner" simply because your shop owns a dyno and you tweak A/F and timing maps.

Monitoring all the information from sensors and knowing what to do with that info is a big time difference in ability compared to someone who doesn't mess with any of that stuff and just tune off the dyno charts and innaccurate A/F readings taken from the tailpipe instead of right after the exhaust manifold