gothchick

iTrader: (12)

Well this isn't an ATM machine, and not every tune works on every car since every car's mods are different. So I seriously doubt this would impact a shop that much even if a tune did happen to 'leak' out. Lol~

Besides, from my point of view, I have enough $$$ invested in my car that having access to the tune & EMS that are driving the car is critical and mandatory. And - It's the end user's right to have that access being that they are the owner of the vehicle, not the shop.

Like I said, both parties can come out winners if trust and integrity are established up front.

IIQuickSilverII

iTrader: (13)

i may agree with you with the case of piggy backs, in some special occasions like larry and jermey agreed.... but not with standalones...plain simple with a standalone you should not need to mess with the tune even if you add mods.. If it is something like cams, different turbo kit, then you probably would need a retune anyways...

Alberto

iTrader: (14)

No EMS should be locked. I understand that tuners want to protect their "secrets" and tunes, but at the same time the customer is paying for a tune, that shouldnt deny access to the EMS or adjustments. The tuner wanting to protect his "intellectual property" on a customers car when it can negatively affect the customer (as stated above) is wrong. I have yet to honestly hear of a standalone that can be tuned one time and never touched again. Even customers of the best tuners on these forums have issues and go back for retunes, yet many wont admit it online.

eagletanggreen

iTrader: (40)

[/B]OH what!! I'll be the first to admit it!!!

I have been back to my tuner multiple time for adjustment/diffrent tunes.

One time tune?? There is no such thing.


Say No to lock EMS's!!

rcdash

iTrader: (18)

I agree to an extent. I think end user software could be better designed to protect the tuner and the customer and still provide most of the flexibility needed. It's not easy though... I provided this feedback to the Haltech folks and they are working on a partial lock scenario. You accidentally screw with a compensation map though and you can still screw up the car...

I believe I confirmed with Hal that a tuner can send you an updated, locked map via e-mail and it will update a locked unit. So remote assistance from your tuner is at least possible with the Haltech, even if locked. Just send them a datalog, describe the problem, and your tuner should be able to fix it.

Of course you can always work out the details up front with your tuner...

eagletanggreen

iTrader: (40)

That would be cool! /\

__jb

iTrader: (3)

Digital Rights Management (DRM) comes to my350z.

There are many forms of Digital Rights Management in the world today. It is one of the most hotly debated topics in the computer, record, and movie industries. None of you own the operating system on your own computer... You can't move songs from one environment to another.

A Tuner certainly has the right to lock his tune on any device he chooses, just as any owner has the right to find another tuner or tune the car themselves. It's part of the design of our capitalistic society.

If you had a couple of maps from a single Tuner and knew the different characteristics of each of the cars they were created for, you could reverse engineer the tuning characteristics and determine a pattern for that tuner. You could see what he did when certain options were present and when they weren't. That would be stealing his Intellectual Property. You can say that this wouldn't happen or that people wouldn't do it, but it has happened with more complicated things than tunes and people do do it.

.

freedonutss

iTrader: (14)

isnt this a quote in one of the fast and the furious movies?

haha. JK

Jim@Showstoppers

iTrader: (157)

Doug you have an RSX too....siikk

BriGuyMax

iTrader: (4)

athenG

iTrader: (2)

What? Tuning follow the same principle, there is not much differencece but how detailed the tuner is on his work. What pattern? Every tune is different since every car respond differently. Some car like more timing some dont, some respond well to leaner A/F but some need fatter A/F. There is no one key so there is nothing to revers engineer coz every car is different. Every EMS company give a base map that a tuner can use start with. The tuner can go a little aggressive with the tune by adding more timing or run leaner A/F. Fuel Ratio is no secret, there is a range of Fuel Ratio for Rich/Lean Max TQ so Tuner try to stay within that range. To get the max power out of the car, the tuner will put the car on the dyno so it knows how the car responds, there is no one solution coz every car respond differently so every car needs a custom tune if they want max power. Do the tuner honestly believe that their tune can be used for every car? If that is the case then they should just sell a CD containing the MAP and load it to everyones car.

This discussion is mainly for Piggyback especially Utec since that is what the OP has. I do agree that there is a lot more involve on Full Standalone EMS, so that I have no problem being locked. But c'mon, Utec is just a piggy back and it is a great piggyback but we all know it need some minor tweaking every now and then because it doesn't respond well on different situation like Temperature, Elevation changes..etc.

GTM

iTrader: (12)

I can understand and appreciate where you are coming from. I think we just have to all agree this type of thing has to be discussed before having your car tuned by any tuner, because of the nature of the Utec, I can see what you mean.

You have to also understand that there are people which are not capable and/or interested in tuning their Utec, so the tuner is locking the box just so another tuner does work of his base map, essentially stealing his work and going from there.

Hope you know what I am trying to get across.

-George

athenG

iTrader: (2)

I guess we do agree with Utec should be somewhat unlocked because of its tendency to change base on Ambient Temp, Elevation right?

The customer payed for that tune right? If I end up in another shop which I did because I had to install my Meth kit. I ask the other Tuner to just adjust my A/F because of the Meth, we all know there is not much secret in A/F tuning coz Gasoline already has a preset ratio were it gives max TQ or ratio for fuel economy or burning rate. So he basically just charged me 1/3 of the cost since I already have a great tune (thanks to MRC) that he just basically changed a little to compensate for the meth. If Julian locked my EMS then I'm going to end up paying for a Full tune again but I already payed for that tune right? So it's like asking someone to build me an engine and now the engine builder put a big lock on the block because he built it. It doesn't make any sense since we payed for that product.

Engine builder follow the same principle in building an Engine right? So do the Tuners following the same principle in tuning. Those principles are available to the public so what are they really protecting? So basically they are just protecting the time and effort they put in tuning/building the EMS/Engine right? But we already payed for the the tuner for that hard work! I just don't get it.. I do see then locking it to protect the noob from ****ing things up but other than that I dont get it. The only reason I can see beside noob fvcing thing up is that they want to put pressure on their customer to keep coming back to them, and if they choose to go somewhere else then they get punished by ending up paying to start over again which they already payed for from the first shop... If that is the case then that is a shame....


We are just discussing here so every shop can do what ever they feel is right and at the same time us customer will do what ever to protect their investment..

buzzardmountain

iTrader: (17)

....

athenG

iTrader: (2)

/\ I guess... I just hope Tuners will be open to that idea.

JETPILOT

iTrader: (51)

If I buy a music CD I have the right to do anything I want with it as long as I do not copy that music or use it for commercial puproses.

I bought my tune and I should be able to do anything I want with it with the above limitations.

The UTEC needs to be tweaked. If no one is going to argue with that statement then why lock the UTEC.

I have the answer..... $$$$$$$ The tuner wants you back at his shop to retune your car. It's all about the money.

ToastZ

iTrader: (2)

1. If you do not want a lock on your EMS,... then tune your own car.

2. If you pay someone to tune your car, then be prepared to have the tune locked. Its america and we own what we create, not necessarily what we buy. Tunes are not "open source", the customer has no rights to them, but does have the option not to enter into the agreement to purchase them.

For example, you own your computer (apple or microsoft),.. but will apple or microsoft send you source code for the computer ? No, they are protected by the courts for their IP and in now way will you obtain it, nor should you have the right to.

Locking an ems is no different than encrypting a piece of source code on a dell computer of apple ipod,... or owning a copyright for that matter.

When you enter into an agreement to purchase something from a vendor, then the vendor has rights to protect their proprietary IP. Plain, simple and proven every day in courts of law.

jeffie7

iTrader: (4)

Just wanted to give you guys an update.


I'm still alive.

JETPILOT

iTrader: (51)

"It's America we own what we create" Got to love this statement. A tune is not intellectual property. If you pay someone to create a computer network for you then you the purchaser own the intellectual rights to that network and it's software. The fact that you payed an individual to create that network does not give that vendor exclusive right to have access to that network. If you choose to have someone else work on your network then you have that right. The IT person cannot hold you and your netowrk hostage. That would be extortion and that's not America.

You can't compare Apple or MS and their end user license agreements with a tuner and his tune. That's just stupid.

When you enter into an agreement to purchase a tune from a vendor you should make sure that that vendor will not lock your UTEC. How can you comment on an assumed understood contract between a tuner and his customer when no said or understood agreement exists. That again is stupid and assumes an understanding or industry wide practice is assumed to be in place which it is not.

Anyone who would agree to a written understanding that his UTEC will be locked and innacessable to anyone but that tuner would be an idiot. Alot of these people getting their cars built and tuned are sending them cross country to have this work done and are not able to have that individual retune their car due to the distance involved to transport the car.

ToastZ

iTrader: (2)

Based on your response, I'm pretty sure you fall into the category of people that should be tuning their own car.