A bad situation turns good, Apology to Dave @ FT and a friendship saved
08-15-2008, 07:17 PM
#81
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I honestly have zero interest in tuning my own car, mainly because I don't have the skill set at the moment. I'd like to go to EFI University some day, but until then I'll leave to the professionals. I want to their to be a single point of contact (read: Responsibility) for my car, so that when something does go wrong, there is absolutely zero question over if it was me or my tuner messing something up.
This topic is a good one, but its come up a bunch of times, and no one's opinion on the matter ever changes...
This topic is a good one, but its come up a bunch of times, and no one's opinion on the matter ever changes...
08-15-2008, 07:23 PM
#82
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Originally Posted by JAMEZ@CiNcity
I honestly have zero interest in tuning my own car, mainly because I don't have the skill set at the moment. I'd like to go to EFI University some day, but until then I'll leave to the professionals. I want to their to be a single point of contact (read: Responsibility) for my car, so that when something does go wrong, there is absolutely zero question over if it was me or my tuner messing something up.
This topic is a good one, but its come up a bunch of times, and no one's opinion on the matter ever changes...
This topic is a good one, but its come up a bunch of times, and no one's opinion on the matter ever changes...
08-15-2008, 07:23 PM
#83
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Originally Posted by JETPILOT
If I buy a music CD I have the right to do anything I want with it as long as I do not copy that music or use it for commercial puproses.
I bought my tune and I should be able to do anything I want with it with the above limitations.
The UTEC needs to be tweaked. If no one is going to argue with that statement then why lock the UTEC.
I have the answer..... $$$$$$$ The tuner wants you back at his shop to retune your car. It's all about the money.
I bought my tune and I should be able to do anything I want with it with the above limitations.
The UTEC needs to be tweaked. If no one is going to argue with that statement then why lock the UTEC.
I have the answer..... $$$$$$$ The tuner wants you back at his shop to retune your car. It's all about the money.
Last edited by JAM3Z; 08-15-2008 at 07:26 PM.
08-15-2008, 09:27 PM
#84
There are always many ways to look at this.
Tuners know the tune will need manipultation on a UTEC if they are going to tune a car in the winter and then drive it in hot summer temps in open loop boost control mode. The boost won't be stable. In this situation the car will underboost. If the car is tuned in the summer and then driven on a cold winter day the car will overboost. You are sending a value to the BCS that does not take into account manifold air pressure. That can't work. If you live in FL and brought your car to Atlanta to have tuned what are you supposed to do when it needs adjustment. Pay another $600 to get a new tune? I'm not talking about changing timing or fuel, just the boost. In my case I changed it to closed loop boost control that does look at manifold air pressure and get's boost pressure feedback and adjusts.
I think everyone needs access to the UTEC to make adjustments if needed eithe made by them or qnother qualified individual. if an issue should arise the original tuner can compare the tune on the UTEC to the tune in his file.
Tuners know the tune will need manipultation on a UTEC if they are going to tune a car in the winter and then drive it in hot summer temps in open loop boost control mode. The boost won't be stable. In this situation the car will underboost. If the car is tuned in the summer and then driven on a cold winter day the car will overboost. You are sending a value to the BCS that does not take into account manifold air pressure. That can't work. If you live in FL and brought your car to Atlanta to have tuned what are you supposed to do when it needs adjustment. Pay another $600 to get a new tune? I'm not talking about changing timing or fuel, just the boost. In my case I changed it to closed loop boost control that does look at manifold air pressure and get's boost pressure feedback and adjusts.
I think everyone needs access to the UTEC to make adjustments if needed eithe made by them or qnother qualified individual. if an issue should arise the original tuner can compare the tune on the UTEC to the tune in his file.
08-16-2008, 04:41 AM
#85
man.. i did 12 hours of driving yesterday.. CT to MD .. then back to CT..
anyway.. the point wasn't so much if the tune was locked or not.. it was the way how he slammed Dave in his original post .. airing dirty laundry and saying he spent thousands of dollars and Dave shouldn't have locked his tune.. maybe he should have made clear to Dave before hand he didn't want his tune locked..
tune locked.. yes or no... its a never ending debate.. but one thing we can agree on, if your EMS has the abilty to be left open, you can ask your tuner to leave it open, in which case the OP did NOT and then came on the board slamming Dave.
anyway.. the point wasn't so much if the tune was locked or not.. it was the way how he slammed Dave in his original post .. airing dirty laundry and saying he spent thousands of dollars and Dave shouldn't have locked his tune.. maybe he should have made clear to Dave before hand he didn't want his tune locked..
tune locked.. yes or no... its a never ending debate.. but one thing we can agree on, if your EMS has the abilty to be left open, you can ask your tuner to leave it open, in which case the OP did NOT and then came on the board slamming Dave.
08-16-2008, 06:17 AM
#86
Originally Posted by doug
man.. i did 12 hours of driving yesterday.. CT to MD .. then back to CT..
anyway.. the point wasn't so much if the tune was locked or not.. it was the way how he slammed Dave in his original post .. airing dirty laundry and saying he spent thousands of dollars and Dave shouldn't have locked his tune.. maybe he should have made clear to Dave before hand he didn't want his tune locked..
tune locked.. yes or no... its a never ending debate.. but one thing we can agree on, if your EMS has the abilty to be left open, you can ask your tuner to leave it open, in which case the OP did NOT and then came on the board slamming Dave.
anyway.. the point wasn't so much if the tune was locked or not.. it was the way how he slammed Dave in his original post .. airing dirty laundry and saying he spent thousands of dollars and Dave shouldn't have locked his tune.. maybe he should have made clear to Dave before hand he didn't want his tune locked..
tune locked.. yes or no... its a never ending debate.. but one thing we can agree on, if your EMS has the abilty to be left open, you can ask your tuner to leave it open, in which case the OP did NOT and then came on the board slamming Dave.
08-16-2008, 06:24 AM
#87
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Originally Posted by doug
tune locked.. yes or no... its a never ending debate.. but one thing we can agree on, if your EMS has the abilty to be left open, you can ask your tuner to leave it open, in which case the OP did NOT and then came on the board slamming Dave.
08-16-2008, 07:04 AM
#88
Originally Posted by BlinkerFluid
On the other hand, wouldn't it be responsible for the tuner to tell the customer that the tune will be locked beforehand? Then the customer can hash out the details with the tuner, or take his car somewhere else. A locked EMS should not be a suprise to a customer 3 months down the road IMO.
if the tuner thought you had the ability to tune your EMS he would probably think you wouldn't have brought it there in the first place?
if you are always putting pickels and mayo on every hamburger, how are you suppose to know who doesn't want it unless they tell you before hand?
08-16-2008, 08:28 AM
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It's pretty simple really. I'm sure most tuners have customers sign a release form. Include that the tune will be locked unless prior arrangments are made.
If I go to McDonalds, and I don't want pickles on my burger, I ask, because I know that the burger comes with pickles. Do all customers know their EMS will be locked? If the situation isn't discussed, the customer may have no clue that he will not have access to his EMS if he wants to learn to tune and make adjustments later on down the road.
I know if the tune on my car was locked without prior knowledge, I would be livid.
This is the base of my general annoyance for the 350Z/G35 community. Not many seem to help others when it comes to the topic of power production and tuning. The ones who have the experience seem to play "I have a secret," with the information, that, if shared, would further the community as a whole. Especially the ones who treat tuning is if it's some type of black art that noone but the tuners themselves can understand. Frankly, it isn't hard to learn, and any true enthusiast should be encouraged to learn how it all works. A good way to do this for the less experienced person is to have a tuner create a base tune that is spot on, then later when the owner of the vehicle changes something, he can make the adjustments himself.
I'll stick to tuning my own car and figureing it out myself in the meantime.
jtgli, I'm glad you got it all worked out, I know you were quite upset the other night.
If I go to McDonalds, and I don't want pickles on my burger, I ask, because I know that the burger comes with pickles. Do all customers know their EMS will be locked? If the situation isn't discussed, the customer may have no clue that he will not have access to his EMS if he wants to learn to tune and make adjustments later on down the road.
I know if the tune on my car was locked without prior knowledge, I would be livid.
This is the base of my general annoyance for the 350Z/G35 community. Not many seem to help others when it comes to the topic of power production and tuning. The ones who have the experience seem to play "I have a secret," with the information, that, if shared, would further the community as a whole. Especially the ones who treat tuning is if it's some type of black art that noone but the tuners themselves can understand. Frankly, it isn't hard to learn, and any true enthusiast should be encouraged to learn how it all works. A good way to do this for the less experienced person is to have a tuner create a base tune that is spot on, then later when the owner of the vehicle changes something, he can make the adjustments himself.
I'll stick to tuning my own car and figureing it out myself in the meantime.
jtgli, I'm glad you got it all worked out, I know you were quite upset the other night.
Last edited by BlinkerFluid; 08-16-2008 at 08:43 AM.
08-16-2008, 08:49 AM
#90
Originally Posted by BlinkerFluid
It's pretty simple really. I'm sure most tuners have customers sign a release form. Include that the tune will be locked unless prior arrangments are made.
If I go to McDonalds, and I don't want pickles on my burger, I ask, because I know that the burger comes with pickles. Do all customers know their EMS will be locked? If the situation isn't discussed, the customer may have no clue that he will not have access to his EMS if he wants to learn to tune and make adjustments later on down the road.
I know if the tune on my car was locked without prior knowledge, I would be livid.
This is the base of my general annoyance for the 350Z/G35 community. Not many seem to help others when it comes to the topic of power production and tuning. The ones who have the experience seem to play "I have a secret," with the information, that, if shared, would further the community as a whole. Especially the ones who treat tuning is if it's some type of black art that noone but the tuners themselves can understand. Frankly, it isn't hard to learn, and any true enthusiast should be encouraged to learn how it all works. A good way to do this for the less experienced person is to have a tuner create a base tune that is spot on, then later when the owner of the vehicle changes something, he can make the adjustments himself.
I'll stick to tuning my own car and figureing it out myself in the meantime.
jtgli, I'm glad you got it all worked out, I know you were quite upset the other night.
If I go to McDonalds, and I don't want pickles on my burger, I ask, because I know that the burger comes with pickles. Do all customers know their EMS will be locked? If the situation isn't discussed, the customer may have no clue that he will not have access to his EMS if he wants to learn to tune and make adjustments later on down the road.
I know if the tune on my car was locked without prior knowledge, I would be livid.
This is the base of my general annoyance for the 350Z/G35 community. Not many seem to help others when it comes to the topic of power production and tuning. The ones who have the experience seem to play "I have a secret," with the information, that, if shared, would further the community as a whole. Especially the ones who treat tuning is if it's some type of black art that noone but the tuners themselves can understand. Frankly, it isn't hard to learn, and any true enthusiast should be encouraged to learn how it all works. A good way to do this for the less experienced person is to have a tuner create a base tune that is spot on, then later when the owner of the vehicle changes something, he can make the adjustments himself.
I'll stick to tuning my own car and figureing it out myself in the meantime.
jtgli, I'm glad you got it all worked out, I know you were quite upset the other night.
next time you go to KFC and you get that original recipie chicken you paid for.. demand they give you the secret recipie because you deserve it.. you paid for your chicken
08-16-2008, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by BlinkerFluid
It's pretty simple really. I'm sure most tuners have customers sign a release form. Include that the tune will be locked unless prior arrangments are made.
If I go to McDonalds, and I don't want pickles on my burger, I ask, because I know that the burger comes with pickles. Do all customers know their EMS will be locked? If the situation isn't discussed, the customer may have no clue that he will not have access to his EMS if he wants to learn to tune and make adjustments later on down the road.
I know if the tune on my car was locked without prior knowledge, I would be livid.
This is the base of my general annoyance for the 350Z/G35 community. Not many seem to help others when it comes to the topic of power production and tuning. The ones who have the experience seem to play "I have a secret," with the information, that, if shared, would further the community as a whole. Especially the ones who treat tuning is if it's some type of black art that noone but the tuners themselves can understand. Frankly, it isn't hard to learn, and any true enthusiast should be encouraged to learn how it all works. A good way to do this for the less experienced person is to have a tuner create a base tune that is spot on, then later when the owner of the vehicle changes something, he can make the adjustments himself.
I'll stick to tuning my own car and figureing it out myself in the meantime.
jtgli, I'm glad you got it all worked out, I know you were quite upset the other night.
If I go to McDonalds, and I don't want pickles on my burger, I ask, because I know that the burger comes with pickles. Do all customers know their EMS will be locked? If the situation isn't discussed, the customer may have no clue that he will not have access to his EMS if he wants to learn to tune and make adjustments later on down the road.
I know if the tune on my car was locked without prior knowledge, I would be livid.
This is the base of my general annoyance for the 350Z/G35 community. Not many seem to help others when it comes to the topic of power production and tuning. The ones who have the experience seem to play "I have a secret," with the information, that, if shared, would further the community as a whole. Especially the ones who treat tuning is if it's some type of black art that noone but the tuners themselves can understand. Frankly, it isn't hard to learn, and any true enthusiast should be encouraged to learn how it all works. A good way to do this for the less experienced person is to have a tuner create a base tune that is spot on, then later when the owner of the vehicle changes something, he can make the adjustments himself.
I'll stick to tuning my own car and figureing it out myself in the meantime.
jtgli, I'm glad you got it all worked out, I know you were quite upset the other night.
08-16-2008, 09:06 AM
#92
Originally Posted by r0csfinest
it is a secret. this is how they make money. there are tons of shops out there that cant tune worth nothing. so why should a tuner that put so much work and time into his tune just share it with everyone?
08-16-2008, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by doug
you make a good point.. if i own a shop and i can't tune worth ****.. i could invest $2000 sending various cars to Dave's shop to get tuned.. bring those ECU's back and then study his tuning ways and start my own shop tuning for less money
08-18-2008, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by __jb
Digital Rights Management (DRM) comes to my350z.
There are many forms of Digital Rights Management in the world today. It is one of the most hotly debated topics in the computer, record, and movie industries. None of you own the operating system on your own computer... You can't move songs from one environment to another.
A Tuner certainly has the right to lock his tune on any device he chooses, just as any owner has the right to find another tuner or tune the car themselves. It's part of the design of our capitalistic society.
If you had a couple of maps from a single Tuner and knew the different characteristics of each of the cars they were created for, you could reverse engineer the tuning characteristics and determine a pattern for that tuner. You could see what he did when certain options were present and when they weren't. That would be stealing his Intellectual Property. You can say that this wouldn't happen or that people wouldn't do it, but it has happened with more complicated things than tunes and people do do it.
.
There are many forms of Digital Rights Management in the world today. It is one of the most hotly debated topics in the computer, record, and movie industries. None of you own the operating system on your own computer... You can't move songs from one environment to another.
A Tuner certainly has the right to lock his tune on any device he chooses, just as any owner has the right to find another tuner or tune the car themselves. It's part of the design of our capitalistic society.
If you had a couple of maps from a single Tuner and knew the different characteristics of each of the cars they were created for, you could reverse engineer the tuning characteristics and determine a pattern for that tuner. You could see what he did when certain options were present and when they weren't. That would be stealing his Intellectual Property. You can say that this wouldn't happen or that people wouldn't do it, but it has happened with more complicated things than tunes and people do do it.
.
Great post
Totally agree.
08-18-2008, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by ToastZ
1. If you do not want a lock on your EMS,... then tune your own car.
2. If you pay someone to tune your car, then be prepared to have the tune locked. Its america and we own what we create, not necessarily what we buy. Tunes are not "open source", the customer has no rights to them, but does have the option not to enter into the agreement to purchase them.
For example, you own your computer (apple or microsoft),.. but will apple or microsoft send you source code for the computer ? No, they are protected by the courts for their IP and in now way will you obtain it, nor should you have the right to.
Locking an ems is no different than encrypting a piece of source code on a dell computer of apple ipod,... or owning a copyright for that matter.
When you enter into an agreement to purchase something from a vendor, then the vendor has rights to protect their proprietary IP. Plain, simple and proven every day in courts of law.
2. If you pay someone to tune your car, then be prepared to have the tune locked. Its america and we own what we create, not necessarily what we buy. Tunes are not "open source", the customer has no rights to them, but does have the option not to enter into the agreement to purchase them.
For example, you own your computer (apple or microsoft),.. but will apple or microsoft send you source code for the computer ? No, they are protected by the courts for their IP and in now way will you obtain it, nor should you have the right to.
Locking an ems is no different than encrypting a piece of source code on a dell computer of apple ipod,... or owning a copyright for that matter.
When you enter into an agreement to purchase something from a vendor, then the vendor has rights to protect their proprietary IP. Plain, simple and proven every day in courts of law.
Another great post.
08-18-2008, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by ToastZ
Based on your response, I'm pretty sure you fall into the category of people that should be tuning their own car.
OMG
08-18-2008, 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by doug
All the top tuners on this site lock their tunes when they see fit.. thats just how its done..
next time you go to KFC and you get that original recipie chicken you paid for.. demand they give you the secret recipie because you deserve it.. you paid for your chicken
next time you go to KFC and you get that original recipie chicken you paid for.. demand they give you the secret recipie because you deserve it.. you paid for your chicken
Why are you going OT
The topic is RSX not EMS 