athenG

iTrader: (2)

lol, so I pay the Engine builder and I own the Engine that he built but I pay the Tuner to tune my OWN EMS then now he own that tune and I can't do anything about it?

For someone who don't know anything about Tuning you seem to argue a lot. Go learn and I'm pretty sure you'll change your mind about this imaginary secret you are talking about.

doug

iTrader: (5)

right now you are speaking the equivalent of going to olive garden.. buying the seafood alreado.. taking it home.. adding olive oil and thyme to it.. then serving it to your family and saying its nothing to it..

you're tweaking a base tune julian made for you and claiming it is nothing.. if thats the case.. you should have did it yourself.. rented a dyno and created your base tune

hence what dave and other tuners have to protect.. their base tune they spend hours on the dyno and on the road creating..

doug

iTrader: (5)

you should start tuning members cars and making some money on the side since you are that good at doing it..

everybody who has a motorcycle and a powercommander plays with their tune all the time.. i've done it.. all my friends have done it.. but i sure as hell didn't create the original map or would i put it down saying its no big deal to create..

athenG

iTrader: (2)

I have never claimed nor said I'm a tuner but like I have said Utec is just a different EMS that needed to be tweaked here and there. Utec just doesn't respond well to changes so people who are knowledgeable should be allowed to do some tweaking. Yes, Julian did my first tune but trust me my tune right now is much different. I have tweaked my A/F and even my timing because of the Meth but I took a chance and if I mess up then there is no one to be blamed but me. The first time I got my car it was fine but I did get some knocking at certain load so I needed to correct it. Every EMS comes with a Base map to get you started, so there is no more reason to start from scratch. There are members here that are self thought like gotchick so what is the secret here?

Like I have been saying, I still prefer to go to a pro tuner becuase they have more tools in their disposal but sometime there are trouble areas that I know how to fix, so I should be able to do a MINOR tweak on my Map. I have hundreds of LOGs in my laptop and that is how I was able to eliminate all the knock in my tune. If I wasn't allowed to even do some logging then it could be worst.

ToastZ

iTrader: (2)

Who's arguing ? We are having a discussion maybe, no where close to an argument. I do have strong views as do you, what in the world is wrong with that ?

I'm not an engine builder, but I do own a car.

I pay for my engine builds, pay for my tunes and I think that I get great service because I research and buy the best that I can.

What's wrong with that ?

doug

iTrader: (5)

your statements are hypocritcal... you are saying this.. then you are saying that..

like i said.. your tweaking is only 10% of the job.. again.. .if you thought it was that easy.. you should have got a base map from TurboXS and rented a dyno and tuned your car yourself..

Julian brought you through the fire and over the hill.. all you are doing is walking over the bridge..

again.. you just proved the need for 'trade secrets' .. if you wanted to.. you could now take Julian's base map.. then go around tuning UTEC's in NYC for cheaper.. because you have something to work with

athenG

iTrader: (2)

most complete Turbo kit comes with a base map that you can run. Vortech, TN, and STS as long as you didnt change what is on the main kit. The argument here is that the owner of the car/ems should be able to do some tweaking if she/he chooses too. I'm not taking any credit here but just basically saying that all top tuners know this trick so what is the secret here? why lock the EMS? Does MRC know something that Sam dont know? Plus I'm not a tuner so why would I tune other peoples car?

You used to have a Utec so you should know that Temp Compensation is a manual process. I have Utec control boost so I also need access to my map if I want to reduce my boost or increase it. I have no problem having a Standalone lock because it is far more complicated and it doesnt need much tweaking since it can adapt to minor changes anyways.

doug

iTrader: (5)

whats their secret? the base tune they spend hours working on.. thas why its so expensive.. do you really think that they all use the same base tune and tweak it? do you really think sharif, julian, jeremey and sam spend 4 hours tuning a car when all they had to do was download a base map and tweak it? this isn't a cake mix wedding cake dude.. they acutally make these things from scratch and spend time doing it..

your claims that what they do is no secret appears to put down the top tuners that they don't need to lock it because anyone can get a base tune with their EMS and tweak it.. again i ask WHY did you need julian to do your base tune if you could have done the same thing..

again i use the powercommander example.. i've seen my bike tuner sit there for hours building my powercommander map.. and he charges $200 for it.. i've also seen my cousin road tune his R6 to get his map perfect.. but again.. even though he gets his tune better than the tuner.. HE DIDN'T CREATE IT..

you my friend are a tweaker.. you're not a tuner.. the day you can create your tune from scratch.. then you can argue the fact that its not that hard

ToastZ

iTrader: (2)

If you are that capable with an ems, then start from the base map that you have, rent a dyno and create your own,... and you are a winner. Its that simple.

IIQuickSilverII

iTrader: (13)

athenG

iTrader: (2)

All tuner uses a base map but the reason why it take time is that no car is alike. Every car respond differently and that is why it take time to find the area where you can make power but still maintain reliability. This is Tuning and every tuner follow the same rule. You can advance the timing but your there are many variable that will dictate how much timing advance/retard you can do like Octane, IAT, EGT, knock count...etc All tuner follow the same rule and all look at those signs. Like I said I'm not a tuner but have buddies that tune for a living. IT IS THE PROCESS THAT SEPARATE THE GOOD FROM THE BAD BUT ALL PRETTY MUCH FOLLOW THE SAME PRINCIPLE. This why a gret tuner can tune any EMS because all ems follow the same principle.

You seem to forget what we are discussing here. It is not my capabilities to do a full tune from scratch but the option for owners (especially Utec owners) to have access to the EMS.

ToastZ

iTrader: (2)

Thanks and good luck with that, but I'll stick with my current tuner, or tuners et. al.

doug

iTrader: (5)

no what we are discussing is tuners have a right to lock their base tune out from the end user.. and yes they do as previously explained.. it could fall under the trade secret category.

BTW.. i've seen very good Supra Tuners blow up VQ Motors.. so no.. every great tuner can't tune anything

JETPILOT

iTrader: (51)

Funny... no tuners have managed to notice this thread yet and take a stance. It's funny how they disappear when threads like this pop up.

JETPILOT

iTrader: (51)

That's retarted Doug..... When you order a UTEC most dealers ask you if you want a base tune loaded for the turbo kit your using. Base tunes are public domain. You of all people should know that.

athenG

iTrader: (2)

There are many drivers that agree that EMS shouldnt be locked so we just need to agree to disagree... There already many analogy that has been given by other posters so everyone has their own opinion.

ToastZ

iTrader: (2)

In the United States, trade secrets are not protected by law in the same manner as trademarks or patents. Specifically, both trademarks and patents are protected under Federal statutes, the Lanham Act and Patent Act, respectively.

Trade secrets arise out of state laws. Most states have adopted the Uniform Trade Secrets Act (UTSA). Only Massachusetts, New York, New Jersey, North Carolina, and Texas have not adopted the UTSA.

One of the most significant differences between patents and trademarks and trade secrets is that a trade secret is only protected when the secret is NOT disclosed.

ToastZ

iTrader: (2)

*********************************************************

Definition of trade secret: i.e. professional tune et. al. "tuners" or "shop owners", blah, blah, blah,....

The act defines a trade secret as information, including a formula, pattern, compilation, program device, method, technique, or process, that:

(i) derives independent economic value, actual or potential, from not being generally known to, and not being readily ascertainable by proper means by, other persons who can obtain economic value from its disclosure or use, and

(ii) is the subject of efforts that are reasonable under the circumstances to maintain its secrecy.

*********************************************************

Basically, if you work hard on something (anything), america has a law to help protect it. However, it is on YOU as the inventor and businees owner to take steps first to protect it under law [check state law]. If it is vital to your business, then it is suggested you protect it, that is if you feel like you worked hard enough to protect it and do not want to give it away.

Trade secrets (unlike patents) seem to be for as long as the market acceptance will stand. Meaning, once the marketplace for them deteriorates, whats the point in keeping them secret or putting forth any effort to increase their worth in the market place.

JETPILOT

iTrader: (51)

If I'm a boss and hire you to write a computer program then that program belongs to me becasue the sole reason it was created was because I hired you to do the work. It was also created on my time which I paid you for.

doug

iTrader: (5)

you can have the program.. but you are not getting the source code.. not so you can use it to create other programs off my source code. The program is yours.. the source code is mine