A bad situation turns good, Apology to Dave @ FT and a friendship saved
08-18-2008, 09:37 PM
#161
Registered User
iTrader: (9)
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 439
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by JETPILOT
If I'm a boss and hire you to write a computer program then that program belongs to me becasue the sole reason it was created was because I hired you to do the work. It was also created on my time which I paid you for.
08-19-2008, 06:36 AM
#162
Registered User
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 2,252
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by doug
you can have the program.. but you are not getting the source code.. not so you can use it to create other programs off my source code. The program is yours.. the source code is mine
Yes, you own the source code!!! I just spoke to 4 of our in house programmer who are in the business of programming for over 30 years. To make it short if the programmer is hired to write a code and got payed for that time then they have to surrender the code.
He gave me a perfect example, one of our programmers used to work for Blue Cross Blue Shield as a programmer. They hired Henry Ross Perot who used to have a company that writes codes/program for big firm. Ross's firm pretty much wrote the entire Blue Cross Blue Shield System but eventually both firm had to separate ties because of some disagreement. Ross has to give all the codes to Blue Cross because they payed him to write that system. Blue Cross then used that code to make changes to enhance the system even more. Every single one of them agreed that if someone payed their time to write a code/system then that payee owns that system and the source code.
I asked him if there is any way he can lock the code because he found a nifty way or a very efficient way of programming the system and his answer is no! He said it will not stand in court because someone already payed for that code that he wrote so he eventually own that program.
08-19-2008, 06:45 AM
#164
Originally Posted by doug
right now you are speaking the equivalent of going to olive garden.. buying the seafood alreado.. taking it home.. adding olive oil and thyme to it.. then serving it to your family and saying its nothing to it..
you're tweaking a base tune julian made for you and claiming it is nothing.. if thats the case.. you should have did it yourself.. rented a dyno and created your base tune
hence what dave and other tuners have to protect.. their base tune they spend hours on the dyno and on the road creating..
you're tweaking a base tune julian made for you and claiming it is nothing.. if thats the case.. you should have did it yourself.. rented a dyno and created your base tune
hence what dave and other tuners have to protect.. their base tune they spend hours on the dyno and on the road creating..
Dyno sheet proves it. I do feel empowered by this, since I created every intimate detail of my tune, and validated it repeatedly for performance, stability, and safety.
I already have a real job, so I'm not interested in becoming a "pro-tuner" or competing in their market space. Hence, I'm no threat to them or anyone, and demand full access to my EMS if I ever do get a pro-tune.
Last edited by gothchick; 08-19-2008 at 07:03 AM.
08-19-2008, 06:47 AM
#165
Originally Posted by gothchick
This is exactly what I did when Forged tuned my car in three dyno pulls with no follow up road tune, then said he was done. Car ran like ****, and he told me to "go enjoy my car". I wasn't will to pay more $$ just to get the tune I should have had the first time. So I became a selft tuner, rent dyno time, and the tune I have now safely far exceeds the crappy tune I got at Forged.
08-19-2008, 07:04 AM
#166
Originally Posted by gothchick
This is exactly what I did when Forged tooned my car in three dyno pulls with no follow up road tune, then said he was done. Car ran like ****, and he told me to "go enjoy my car". I wasn't willing to pay more $$ just to get the tune I should have had the first time. So I became a selft tuner, wiped out his toon, rented dyno time - and now the tune I have safely far exceeds the crappy tune I got at Forged.
Dyno sheet proves it. I do feel empowered by this, since I created every intimate detail of my tune, and validated it repeatedly for performance, stability, and safety.
I already have a real job, so I'm not interested in becoming a "pro-tuner" or competing in their market space.
Dyno sheet proves it. I do feel empowered by this, since I created every intimate detail of my tune, and validated it repeatedly for performance, stability, and safety.
I already have a real job, so I'm not interested in becoming a "pro-tuner" or competing in their market space.
08-19-2008, 07:11 AM
#168
^^^ Lol~ Very true. The Nismo floormats are the secret sauce that holds it all together~ :-)
It's really a misnomer to "share maps". A tune on one car more than likely won't work so well on another car. Motors are different, mods are different - heck, even driving styles and driving conditions are different.
I doubt that I would ever share my exact tune for those reasons -- my tune could actually do damage to another car if they were different enough...
Sharing logs are very helpful on the other hand, because logs give you target values to hit regardless of your EMS, car, motor, mods, etc... And logs correlated to dyno pulls are even more helpful.
But you still have to figure out the tuning parameters to hit those target values without doing damage to the vehicle, which honestly isn't that hard to do in small steps once you have a base knowledge of your particular EMS and tuning in general. But - It is a tedious process if done right, don't get me wrong.
This is why a good tuner producing a good tune absolutely deserves compensation for his efforts and talent. But he does not have the right to hold your car hostage in the hopes of making more money.
I am quite active on the tuning forums (Z/G and WRX) and love learning and helping other self tuners with technique, tuning philosophies, execution. It is very interesting and stimulating stuff if you're in to that sort of thing.
It's really a misnomer to "share maps". A tune on one car more than likely won't work so well on another car. Motors are different, mods are different - heck, even driving styles and driving conditions are different.
I doubt that I would ever share my exact tune for those reasons -- my tune could actually do damage to another car if they were different enough...
Sharing logs are very helpful on the other hand, because logs give you target values to hit regardless of your EMS, car, motor, mods, etc... And logs correlated to dyno pulls are even more helpful.
But you still have to figure out the tuning parameters to hit those target values without doing damage to the vehicle, which honestly isn't that hard to do in small steps once you have a base knowledge of your particular EMS and tuning in general. But - It is a tedious process if done right, don't get me wrong.
This is why a good tuner producing a good tune absolutely deserves compensation for his efforts and talent. But he does not have the right to hold your car hostage in the hopes of making more money.
I am quite active on the tuning forums (Z/G and WRX) and love learning and helping other self tuners with technique, tuning philosophies, execution. It is very interesting and stimulating stuff if you're in to that sort of thing.
Last edited by gothchick; 08-19-2008 at 07:52 AM.
08-19-2008, 07:37 AM
#169
Registered User
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 2,252
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by gothchick
^^^ Lol~ Very true. The Nismo floormats are the secret sauce that holds it all together~ :-)
It's really a misnomer to "share maps". A tune on one car more than likely won't work so well on another car. Motors are different, mods are different - heck, even driving styles and driving conditions are different. =
I doubt that I would ever share my exact tune for those reasons -- my tune could actually do damage to another car if they were different enough...
Sharing logs are very helpful on the other hand, because logs give you target values to hit regardless of your EMS, car, motor, mods, etc... And logs correlated to dyno pulls are even more helpful.
But you still have to figure out the tuning parameters to hit those target values without doing damage to the vehicle, which honestly isn't that hard to do in small steps once you have a base knowledge of your particular EMS and tuning in general. But - It is a tedious process if done right, don't get me wrong. =Bravo
I am quite active on the tuning forums (Z/G and WRX) and love learning and helping other self tuners with technique, tuning philosophies, execution. It is very interesting and stimulating stuff if you're in to that sort of thing.
It's really a misnomer to "share maps". A tune on one car more than likely won't work so well on another car. Motors are different, mods are different - heck, even driving styles and driving conditions are different. =
I doubt that I would ever share my exact tune for those reasons -- my tune could actually do damage to another car if they were different enough...
Sharing logs are very helpful on the other hand, because logs give you target values to hit regardless of your EMS, car, motor, mods, etc... And logs correlated to dyno pulls are even more helpful.
But you still have to figure out the tuning parameters to hit those target values without doing damage to the vehicle, which honestly isn't that hard to do in small steps once you have a base knowledge of your particular EMS and tuning in general. But - It is a tedious process if done right, don't get me wrong. =Bravo
I am quite active on the tuning forums (Z/G and WRX) and love learning and helping other self tuners with technique, tuning philosophies, execution. It is very interesting and stimulating stuff if you're in to that sort of thing.
/\ Can you explain to me if there is such a secret in one map that these tuners need to really lock the EMS and even prevent the actual owners to get to their own ems? I see other reasons but no secret at all, I have spoken to numbers of people in my Job, from IT professionals who get payed on the side for their expertise, and programmers who actually WRITE codes and non of them agree that they should lock the actual owner out of their box just because they configured or wrote something to make it better. They all pretty much agreed that they have been compensated for that expertise plus there is no secret to what they do coz everything can be found in Google!
Edit:
Also I'm a strong believer that there is no one who will put more time in your car but yourself. Yes, Pros will tune your car for 1-4hours but you yourself can put 1000hrs in there so owners should be allowed to get in there if they know what they are doing. Modding is my hobby and Doug can make fun of me as being a tweaker but because of that I have learned a lot. I can honestly download a base map from Utec and use that and start over again just by following some general principles in Tuning. Looking at the map that I have didnt teach me all the knowledge that I know now. It is a combination of talking to other people, lots of reading, and trial and error on my part. The base map didn't teach me that!
Last edited by athenG; 08-19-2008 at 07:59 AM.
08-19-2008, 07:48 AM
#170
Originally Posted by athenG
/\ Can you explain to me if there is such a secret in one map that these tuners need to really lock the EMS and even prevent the actual owners to get to their own ems? I see other reasons but no secret at all, I have spoken to numbers of people in my Job, from IT professionals who get payed on the side for their expertise, and programmers who actually WRITE codes and non of them agree that they should lock the actual owner out of their box just because they configured or wrote something to make it better. They all pretty much agreed that they have been compensated for that expertise plus there is no secret to what they do coz everything can be found in Google!
It's all in the configuration and execution - and the time it takes to put it together. For that the tuner deserves compensation. But he should not have the right to lock a critical part of the operation of the vehicle -- The EMS.
Last edited by gothchick; 08-19-2008 at 12:57 PM.
08-20-2008, 05:09 PM
#171
Originally Posted by gothchick
This is exactly what I did when Forged tooned my car in three dyno pulls with no follow up road tune, then said he was done. Car ran like ****, and he told me to "go enjoy my car". I wasn't willing to pay more $$ just to get the tune I should have had the first time. So I became a selft tuner, wiped out his toon, rented dyno time - and now the tune I have safely far exceeds the crappy tune I got at Forged.
I spent two hours with your car, on the dyno, and far more than 3 pulls.
I am so glad you are no longer one of our customer's. You hashed this out last year, and it's time to move on....geeze...stop holding meaningless grudges over a freaken tune! It's been nearly a year and a half since you were here.
08-20-2008, 07:08 PM
#173
Registered User
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Southeast
Posts: 663
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by gothchick
Then stop nut hugging what you don't have a clue about.
It is simply called being a good customer. Believe it or not an educated customer with a positive attitude is all it takes to get a good outcome in 99% of all business transactions. If you are that convinced the shops are out to screw you, then you will get screwed regardless of how they treat you. You have already made up your mind so just go home, and don't play, this game is not for you.
I've never had a bad shop experience because I communicate up front, plainly state the goals of the project and what will be expected when problems arise because they always do.
Its not hard, people like you just make it seem so.
08-21-2008, 05:56 AM
#174
Originally Posted by Sharif@Forged
You really are insane.....
I spent two hours with your car, on the dyno, and far more than 3 pulls.
I am so glad you are no longer one of our customer's. You hashed this out last year, and it's time to move on....geeze...stop holding meaningless grudges over a freaken tune! It's been nearly a year and a half since you were here.
I spent two hours with your car, on the dyno, and far more than 3 pulls.
I am so glad you are no longer one of our customer's. You hashed this out last year, and it's time to move on....geeze...stop holding meaningless grudges over a freaken tune! It's been nearly a year and a half since you were here.
It wasn't just the crappy tune, but a bunch of half-@ssed installs your shop did for me that I had to have re-done else where. Because you wouldn't take responsibility for the work your shop did. Besides I was standing right there when you tooned it. 3 pulls is all you did or were willing to do.
Thankfully, you don't even come close to having a monopoly and I have had TONS of quality work done at a few other good shops with no problems whatsoever.
I know you don't care, but the way you wouldn't take responsibility for Michael's and your F-ups has cost you business that you'll never know about because I personally steer people away from your shop.
What did I find? Missing bolts, cross threaded bolts, parts not lined up right or even installed right. Exhaust leaks. Air in the brake lines. Utec ground wire wrapped around a dash grommet, etc. Unfortunately, you wouldn't stand behind your work, and it has cost you more than just me.
After you finally fired Michael for F-ing up your own car for forgetting to tighten the lugs before a race, and he ended up back at Reagal. I know people who won't even go there now. Yes, it is a small world in which we live.
I know, I know. A girl walks in and you saw easy $$$, and figured she woundn't know the difference between quality work and slapped-together bs. Guess what? I knew the difference.
Maybe the next time a female comes to your shop, you should take her a little more seriously and show her a little more respect. Especially when she's forking out big $$$ and expecting quality work. Also as it turns out, I'm not the only female you have treated this way.
Last edited by gothchick; 08-21-2008 at 07:40 AM.
08-22-2008, 08:29 AM
#179
Registered User
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Texas, Arizona,Cayman Island
Posts: 5,256
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by UMW350Z
these shop threads are a slippery slope...once you get people's emotions riled up, it all comes out, even from other shops
In my opinion....if a shop has hundreds of customers and one or two come on here and bash that shop it has zero effect...especially if that shop has so many customers that have posted about their good experience and have dropped tons of money. This just makes the person doing the bashing look like the bad guy/gal.....or looks more like a personal issue and not a workmanship issue.
I think Gothchick should speak to the shop owner again....even though the bashing has already started and work this out....because YOU NEVER KNOW !!! I know the response she will come back with is ..."I tried and he did not fix it or refuse to fix the problem." But to try and insinuate that Sharif does not know how to tune is just crazy.
I am a multi shop Nuthugger.....
FP,GTM, MRC, PF and now fresh off my suspension list is SGP because they got rid of Thomas....so I am not just saying this because its FP.
08-22-2008, 08:32 AM
#180
Originally Posted by UMW350Z
these shop threads are a slippery slope...once you get people's emotions riled up, it all comes out, even from other shops
well there are needy customers and understanding customers.. there are a couple needy customers on this site who require special attention.. you being one of them.. Jet is another.. you guys are very meticulious and freak out at anything not going your way.. then there are us that are understanding.. everything doesn't go always as planned, but we understand and make provisions for it