ToastZ

iTrader: (2)

Great idea! Cass gets back ALL HIS MONEY and starts from scratch with one shop doing everything,... I like it.

thefireboy

chris will eventually be taken care of, since it was not an obvious determination on whos fault it is. i would think there are lots of questions that need to be answered.
i know frank took 2 days out of his work week to take the motor out of chris's car and take it down to justice for the tear down..
and i really dont know why you people dont ever ask questions on the facts, maybe you choose not to.... besides the rag.. do you not have any questions about the turbo and its condition?(since it was said by dave that it was in good condition) or why there was an extra quart of oil in it? or was there a second oil change? for a motor to fail because of the lack of oil these seem like really reasonable questions..
and to set the record straight if frank new that the turbo was that bad he would have replaced it hands down, and he did offer to pay for the time that dave put into diagnostic of the rag, but was never given the bill.. and if frank had the money just laying around he would get chris on the road but he doesnt because he is such a new shop. and he cant even turn it in on his insurance unless they(insurance company)receive undisputable evidnece that it was his fault, and so far there isnt any..
in my opinion the oil analyisis from blackstone on this oil will say alot..
and the mouse crap was found when the motor was being taken out of the car...

Cass007

iTrader: (34)

What about me Nick? I paid all my bills and end up with nothing?

The oil analysis will reveal nothing, I heard Frank and Jim agree on this very fact after the teardown. So now I just wait again? What smoking gun do you expect the oil to reveal?

I thank Dave for the offer on the motor, but I honestly lost a lot more than that. It has to be apples to apples, not I settle for what you have to offer.

tylerxfire

iTrader: (15)

^^****in right doggy..main concern should be to get u back on track and not pointing fingers at each other right now..which sucks that its not just one shop involved...theres no possible reason u should have to wait around and suffer from this u didnt even touch the car, why cant this go to insurance through hill's garage or whatever it is they built the motor and the motor failed.

BlinkerFluid

iTrader: (7)

The oil analysis will show that the engine is wearing prematurely, signs of extreme internal wear of major components... No crap! Or it will show no wear metals at all because it wasn't run at all with fresh oil.

Cass, I have the feeling Hill's is never goint to meet any expectations you had.

The first engine failed due to inadequate oil flow, I personally felt it may have been caused by the IVT cam gear sealing rings. This second engine failed due to inadequate oil flow, though the IVT sealing rings appear intact. This was two completely seperate blocks, sets of heads, and oil pumps, yet almost identical failures. At least we're seeing some consistancy, I'll let the pic below finish the rest for me though...



Did anyone think to check the oil cooler or upper oil pan for blockage? How about install an analog gauge to monitor oil pressure to validate the factory system. Were the oil return ports from the heads checked to make sure they line up with the headgaskets. I have seen engines not return oil to the sump from the heads fast enough suffer oil starvation. I know if I had built a car that showed this failure once, I'd sure be careful to make sure it didn't happen again. Of course, none of this is directed at you Cass.

Were both blocks machined at the same shop? I don't remember where the machine work on the first engine was done. What were the bearing clearances? Was the crank refurbished?

F'n A right on what about you Cass! I still get the feeling there is some slight of hand going on somewhere in this mess. Either someone is holding back some information or only telling half truths. That turbocharger should have been replaced too, a slight bent fin I can live with, folded over tips I would not. Again, not your fault.

What I don't understand is how can I complete a similar build in my driveway with hand tools, and a shop that supposedly has many of these builds under it's belt has the same failure in the same time period, TWICE! Mine is currently about to cross the 15K mile mark, I guess I did someting right, or wrong maybe, I knew I shouldn't have had so many extra parts.

In the end, I feel you are owed a full refund, parts and labor. F:T's charges for tuning should also be covered by Hill's, along with the towing bills. I also suggest speaking with a lawyer, if Hill's insurance won't cover it because there isn't a clear guilty party, they may cover a suit to recoup your funds. Or instead of hemming and hawing around, Hill claiming responsibility for both engines so his insurance company will take care of you.

Like I said before, this whole situation is utterly disgusting. If it takes pointing fingers, accusations, and legal action to get answers, then I say so be it.

On a sidenote, when you get your money and car back, I know this guy down in the Atlanta area who won't let you down. He has one a them GT-R's and made me look like a fool from a redlight one afternoon. His name is Sharif, I'm sure you've heard of him.

terps

iTrader: (2)

i feel like you paid for a result, which you didnt get. yet on the other hand both shops put in some serious time. its hard to say where to drawl the line with the bill, especially since there was alot of "free" work done, i know if you were billed the actual hour that were worked your bill would have been substantially more. that being said its a cluster-f of finger point, drama, and alot of cash at stake. i hope you get it taken care of.

go-fast

thinking about this a bit......who overfilled the oil?

Havok_RLS2

iTrader: (9)

You sound like a tool nut-huggin fan boy. You sleeping with Frank or something? Are you his girlfriend? Why is it you think you need "undisputable evidnece"? All that really needed is to show a case of neglect in the case of either of the shops which Frank already has in spades. I don't care what anyone says at this point. The evidence speaks (LOUDLY) for it's self. Anyway you put it the damage to the turbos should and would have be caught by anyone with the gift of sight. You expect anyone to believe that during the reinstall of new motor or during a QA check before sending to Dave for tuning he just so happen to miss the bent and broken fins on the turbines? You my friend need to wake up and smell the **** you're shoveling.
OH! Powdercoating musta been the cause for the first failure never mind the fact that I beat the hell out of the parts to get them to fit properly. OH! That rag in the intake couldn't have possibly hurt anything in a motor... BULL ****.
Cass paid out the a$$ for Franks to provide a service which he has yet to provide or fulfill. I'm my eyes and anyone else NOT leg humping Frank, he failed. PERIOD.
Cass has been more that a good sport. More good shops warranty their work and workmanship, are you telling me Frank can't or wont? Seeing as this is now two for two failed motors what exactly is Franks success rate for this customer you think? 0.00

Havok_RLS2

iTrader: (9)

Exactly! I've done my own build and installs and have a better success rate at this point than Frank and his rat infested shop. Hell I would have been happy to take your money and given you better results for as much as you spent.
Cass there must be a place reserved for you in heaven because you have the worst luck but a heart of pure platinum. Now is the time you need to put that heart on the shelf somewhere and get really REALLY pi$$ed. Hang foot and break it off in some a$$es if need be. Next time you show up at a shop bring an attorney with you and see how quick attitudes change. Just try it and see. I bet you get your car back in a week tops if you do that.
The shops are betting on the fact that you buy into that supposed "experience" and NOT the fact that they are in fact human and prone to mistakes. It's easier to sell you the whole "Oh well it's just one of those things" lines then it is to take responsibility for something they may have gotten wrong.
Do I think one shop is more responsible that another shop? YES. Do I think Dave and FT are responsible? NO. Do I think Justice could have built a bad motor? Possible. Do I think Frank is ultimately responsible? AbsoFreakinglutly.
You paid in good faith that he would deliver your car in good working order and you have yet to get what you paid for. But for some reason he feels it's okay for to keep paying him until he figures out how to get it right. LOL. NOT!
What you can sue for if it got to that point just for ***** and giggles.
Cost for replacement motor x2
Replacement turbo kit
Cost of tuning x2
Attorney and legal fees
Cost of towing x whatever
Cost of 1 install
Cost of 2 uninstall

Do the math and figure out how much you think that is and ask if he wants to settle out of court. It's only your right.
Only thing is I'm pretty sure most judges will look at you and say "Why the hell would you keep paying this guy good money if he couldn't get it done the first time?"
You know FT is a full on install shop that can and will do all the work right there. I don't know Dave but on his website it says he warranties all installs performed in house. Sounds like a pretty good deal to me. Since he's been the one tuning and the only one to step up and offer you a motor at this point it's pretty simple to trust a guy like that.

spddmn124

iTrader: (2)

lol
like a tool nut-huggin fan boy
lol

nyqueenz

iTrader: (2)

some info on spun berinings..

http://www.sr20forum.com/sr20de-tech...-bearings.html

i wounder if timming was an issue in this engine build..even thou oil was the major factor.. don't really know to much about this new EMS you using Chris.


CRANKSHAFT BEARINGS

New crankshaft bearings are almost always a must when rebuilding an engine. When you remove the old bearings, inspect them for unusual wear or damage such as scoring, wiping, dirt or debris embedded in the surface of the bearings, pitting or flaking. Anything other than normal wear may indicate an underlying problem that needs to be corrected before the new bearings are installed.

Dirt contamination often causes premature bearing failure. The underlying cause may have been a missing air filter, air leaks into the crankcase (missing oil filler cap, PCV valve, etc.), or not changing the oil and filter often enough.

If the engine has a "spun" bearing, it is likely the bearings were starved for oil - possibly as a result of a failed or badly worn oil pump, an obstruction in the oil pump pickup screen, or too low an oil level in the crankcase (leaky gaskets or seals).

Excessive heat can be another cause of bearing failure. Bearings are primarily cooled by oil flow between the bearing and journal. Anything that disrupts or reduces the flow of oil not only raises bearing temperatures but also increases the risk of scoring or wiping the bearing. Conditions that can reduce oil flow and cause the bearings to run hot include a worn oil pump, restricted oil pickup screen, internal oil leaks, a low oil level in the crankcase, aerated oil (oil level too high), fuel-diluted oil from excessive blowby or coolant-contaminated oil from internal coolant leaks.

Misalignment is another condition that may indicate the need for additional work. If the center main bearings are worn more than the ones toward either end of the crankshaft, the crankshaft may be bent or the main bores may be out of alignment. The straightness of the crank can be checked by placing it on V-blocks, positioning a dial indicator on the center journal and watching the indicator as the crank is turned one complete revolution. If runout exceeds limits, the crank must be straightened or replaced.

Main bore alignment can be checked by inserting a bar about .001 inch smaller in diameter than the main bores through the block with the main caps installed and torqued. If the bar does not turn easily, the block needs to be align bored. Alignment can also be checked with a straight edge and feeler gauge. A deviation of more than .0015 inch in any bore calls for align boring. Line boring must also be done if a main cap is replaced.

The concentricity of the main bores is also important, and should usually be within .0015 inch If not, reboring will be necessary to install bearings with oversized outside diameters.

Connecting rods with elongated big end bores can cause similar problems. If the rod bearings show a diagonal or uneven wear pattern, it usually means the rod is twisted. Rods with elongated crank journal bores or twist must be reconditioned or replaced.

Uneven bearing wear may also be seen if the crankshaft journals are not true. To check the roundness of the crank journals, measure each journal's diameter at either bottom or top dead center and again at 90 degrees either way. Rod journals typically experience the most wear at top dead center.

Comparing diameters at the two different positions should reveal any out-of-roundness if it exists. Though the traditional rule of thumb says up to .001 inch of journal variation is acceptable, many engines can't tolerate more than .0002 to .0005 inch of out-of-roundness (always refer to the specs).

To check for taper wear on the crankshaft journals (one end worn more than the other), barrel wear (ends worn more than the center) or hourglass wear (center worn more than the ends), measure the journal diameter at the center and both ends. Again, the generally accepted limit for taper wear has usually been up to .001 inch, but nowadays it ranges from .0003 to .0005 inch for journals 2 inches or larger in diameter.

The journal diameter itself should be within .001 inch of its original dimensions, or within .001 inch of standard regrind dimensions for proper oil clearances with a replacement bearing. If a journal has been previously reground, there is usually a machinist mark stamped by the journal. A 10, 20 or 30 would indicate the crank has already been ground to undersize, and that further regrinding may be out of the question depending on how badly the crank is worn.

When you install new bearings, make sure you have the correct size (standard size for a standard crank, or oversized bearings for an undersize crank), that you have checked the installed bearing clearances, that the bearings are prelubed to protect them against a dry start, that the oil holes and tangs on the bearings are all properly located, and that the rod and main cap bolts are torqued to specifications.

Another component that should also be replaced along with the bearings is the oil pump. Oil pumps wear with age, and may cause a loss of oil pressure that can be very damaging to the bearings.

source..
http://www.aa1car.com/library/engine2t.htm

superchargedg

iTrader: (4)

Unlike you and AAM.

Cass007

iTrader: (34)

Just to clear a few things up here.

1. The turbo was fresh and new when installed at Hills. The damage was done by a rag left in the passengers side intake that was found when the car was being tuned and would not make boost. I was then told that there was a slightly bent fin, but the turbo was fine otherwise. Either this was not the complete truth or the impeller was slowly consuming itself during the tuning process.

2. The mouse turds could have happened at either shop. The car has been in shops for the past 8 months almost. I am just concerned about having rodents causing wiring gremlins.

3. thefireboy = Hill's Garage supporter
Driven1 = F:T supporter

I know both Nick and Robbie and they are good people. I have tried very hard to not speculate or cause any harm to the shops involved from the start of this process, but as my car just sits and the shops don't seem to be working together to resolve my issues, I am forced to start just looking after my own best interests and let the chips fall where they may.

4. I have no win in this situation at all. If the shops make me whole they will both feel slighted about replacing things they don't think they are responsible for. If I seek legal recourse I will alienate several of the nice people I have met at the local meets since I will be suing their shops and friends. If I get a car back now, will I ever be able to push it without waiting to hear the clanking of rod knock after a run.

5. If legal action is necessary, everyone gets sued. Sorry, but I'm a businessman and this isn't the first time I've had to do this unfortunately. You don't pick and choose, you file on everyone involved and see if they can work out a solution or someone pays me and then they (or their insurance companies) sue each other to recoup some of their loss. If shops think the cost of my rebuild is expensive, just wait till you see the lawsiut (not a threat, just the reality).

Good question, but I doubt a clear answer will ever surface.

WHAT?!?!? Do you any stickers on my car? I am sponsored by myself and my wallet.....period. $5500 for the ViPEC with associated hardware and a tune seemed fair, if Dave had more time in then he expected I'm sure it would come back to him if ViPEC becomes the next big EMS and he is the main guru for it.
Any discounts I got from Frank were based on three things - I was his shops premire build, the volume of work that I had done (many other mods were done when the turbos and motor were done), and the fact that I paid cash money for everything. Usually running a credit balance at all times to make sure parts were covered in advance. Honestly I don't think you know much about the reality of my situation.

This is a bad bet for sure. I'm 3 motors deep and the car has never seen the road under boost with me driving. This is moving past relationships and "I'm sorry" to business and there is nothing I can do about that.

IIQuickSilverII

iTrader: (13)

... you mean the free work they were responsible for focking upthe 1st engine... i mean you still buy that powdercoating thing?...i CALL ......hes had 2 changes, more than anybody gets in this industry and has failed completly....

thefireboy

3. thefireboy = Hill's Garage supporter and Driven1 = F:T supporter = friends

ToastZ

iTrader: (2)

Cass, get a lawyer to send a letter of intent with the description of the damges to the insurance companies involved. Things will move much quicker if you initiate a dialog directly with them. If you already know the insurance companies, pick up the phone and call them to get a rep assigned to your case. They will thank you for being proactive and I bet they will settle this out quickly to keep the lawyer off the phone at $350/hr, or more Get your money back, its just business and no friendships need to be lost but money needs to change hands, and fast, or friendships are likely to be shattered.

EDIT: Most shops protect thier customers with something like this, just an example -> http://www.nationwide.com/auto-repai...-solutions.jsp

Also, I have an APS-TT and have always filled the oil level up to the "normal" level on the dipstick. There was a lot of debate on this way back when the original APS-TT kits came out and there is even a nice write-up on the APS website about it. It has to do with "smoking" and running some cars "a quart low" helped with the issue. I emailed Peter at APS a long long time ago and never really got a definitive answer on the "why do we do this". He always thought the cars that needed to run a quart low had "abnormally high crankcase pressure" and a more aggressive approach to evacuating the crankpressure was needed - but again it was hit and miss on the cars which smoked and ones which did not. I've always run mine at the normal level for 30K miles with no problem. Having the oil filled up to the "normal level" on the motor had nothing to do with the oil starvation issue.

thefireboy

never been a question, the question is when was the extra oil added???

ToastZ

iTrader: (2)

Doesn't matter.

jeffie7

iTrader: (4)

What's up with people pointing out the oil level like that could have been the reason it failed.

I know FT has installed a lot of APS single and twin systems. I find it odd that he would just add more oil unless he has never had an issue with any of the cars before him and as stated above didn't follow "just because" advice.

Or maybe he didn't add any oil, maybe some how it was high before FT got the car, or when the motor blew, all the extra crap in the oil helped push the level up.

Either way, in the end, high oil can cause you to blow out a seal causing an oil leak.
I've yet to hear of high oil (if it was high) causing a bearing to dry up and fail....

I agree that Cass needs his car done or money. People keep saying FT/Hills need to pay out and settle it later.

Who pays what? does Frank pay 50% and Dave pay 50% then go to court over it? does frank pay 80% since he built it and dave 20% since he tuned it? Would a judge side with Frank knowing tuning can cause oil starvation and bearing failure? This is just a big mess.

If I were Dave, I would go to my insurance company, explain that a car blew up under my watch, however, it has yet to be seen as to who's at fault since "background story" and ask for them to write a check to get the customer back on the road with either cash or a fresh re-re-re-build.

Insurance companies while mostly evil, sometimes are not all that bad if used in the right way. They are paid for a reason, they have lawyers you the insurer pay for, they have good lawyers since paying out a claim is the last thing they want to do.

Once the claim is submitted, the insurance company will get involved in the case and will go after the money they lost to get one of their customer's customer back on the road.


IMO this is the best and worst thing to happen for a shop. Just think how people would view FT if Dave had a check for him when it so far looks like it's not his problem, but it did happen at FT, here's the insurance money, then send his insurance company to Hills to work out the details of whos problem it is.

Insurance lawyers are very quick at trying to get things straightened out when their money is on the line. There wouldn't be a lot of beating around the bush done that's for sure.

Even if hill's and FT are both listed as not the problem of failure, if a part is found to of failed, maybe more details on the oil pump? then The insurance company can go after that company.

Something needs to happen. It sucks when both parties feel Meh, not me. but this isn't about the blame game, it's about making a customer happy now, and doing the foot work to make your money back later (court/insurance/wherever)

jeffie7

iTrader: (4)

Why does it matter? Dave has done more APS installs then I can count, maybe (assuming he did add it) he felt in his best judgment that in his experience APS systems under his watch have not had issues with being filled to the line. Then again, maybe he never checked the oil level since the car came from a shop that just built it and clearly knows what they're doing so why worry? who knows but it doesn't matter.

Maybe Dave had tuna in the passenger seat and the extra weight of the dog caused the engine to be under too much load causing oil starvation. It could happen, just like that high oil level causing bearing failure due to not getting enough oil.

While I don't see how Dave could be at fault, I do feel that since it happened under his watch, his insurance company should be informed and they should work out the details with Frank. This shouldn't be a back and forth with Frank and Dave, that's almost as bad as getting into a fender bender and dealing with someone that wants to pay cash to fix it.
Last time that happened to me I told them to go F themselfs after 2 weeks of our meeting date to exchange money being blown off, one call to insurance. DONE car was in the shop the next day.