My Build: The Good, The Bad & The Progress
07-12-2009, 08:05 AM
#1601
Thank You for being a voice of reason Jeffie - you seem to get it. The shops should figure this out amongst themselves IMO. Its not my place or responsibility to assign blame or determine whom is responsible for what or try to make sure no feelings get hurt between the parties involved. I never had the car in my posession and paid for a result that was never recieved.
I could care less at this point whom is responsible for what, like Jeffie said, the insurance companies will settle that in subbrogation - it happens all the time and this loss is minimal in terms of insurance claims. Finding a definative cause would have been nice, but it doesn't change the fact that a failure still occurred and I wasn't responsible for any part of it.
I feel like I've become a cautionary tale for all of the F/I community. My thread is full of more things that you should never do in a build than anything I can remember seeing. The thread title should be more like; How to spend $60K, lose friends, break up working business relationships and have nothing to show for it....
I could care less at this point whom is responsible for what, like Jeffie said, the insurance companies will settle that in subbrogation - it happens all the time and this loss is minimal in terms of insurance claims. Finding a definative cause would have been nice, but it doesn't change the fact that a failure still occurred and I wasn't responsible for any part of it.
I feel like I've become a cautionary tale for all of the F/I community. My thread is full of more things that you should never do in a build than anything I can remember seeing. The thread title should be more like; How to spend $60K, lose friends, break up working business relationships and have nothing to show for it....
07-12-2009, 08:05 AM
#1602
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While I don't see how Dave could be at fault, I do feel that since it happened under his watch, his insurance company should be informed and they should work out the details with Frank. This shouldn't be a back and forth with Frank and Dave, that's almost as bad as getting into a fender bender and dealing with someone that wants to pay cash to fix it.
Last time that happened to me I told them to go F themselfs after 2 weeks of our meeting date to exchange money being blown off, one call to insurance. DONE car was in the shop the next day.
07-12-2009, 08:06 AM
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What's up with people pointing out the oil level like that could have been the reason it failed.
I know FT has installed a lot of APS single and twin systems. I find it odd that he would just add more oil unless he has never had an issue with any of the cars before him and as stated above didn't follow "just because" advice.
Or maybe he didn't add any oil, maybe some how it was high before FT got the car, or when the motor blew, all the extra crap in the oil helped push the level up.
Either way, in the end, high oil can cause you to blow out a seal causing an oil leak.
I've yet to hear of high oil (if it was high) causing a bearing to dry up and fail....
I agree that Cass needs his car done or money. People keep saying FT/Hills need to pay out and settle it later.
Who pays what? does Frank pay 50% and Dave pay 50% then go to court over it? does frank pay 80% since he built it and dave 20% since he tuned it? Would a judge side with Frank knowing tuning can cause oil starvation and bearing failure? This is just a big mess.
If I were Dave, I would go to my insurance company, explain that a car blew up under my watch, however, it has yet to be seen as to who's at fault since "background story" and ask for them to write a check to get the customer back on the road with either cash or a fresh re-re-re-build.
Insurance companies while mostly evil, sometimes are not all that bad if used in the right way. They are paid for a reason, they have lawyers you the insurer pay for, they have good lawyers since paying out a claim is the last thing they want to do.
Once the claim is submitted, the insurance company will get involved in the case and will go after the money they lost to get one of their customer's customer back on the road.
IMO this is the best and worst thing to happen for a shop. Just think how people would view FT if Dave had a check for him when it so far looks like it's not his problem, but it did happen at FT, here's the insurance money, then send his insurance company to Hills to work out the details of whos problem it is.
Insurance lawyers are very quick at trying to get things straightened out when their money is on the line. There wouldn't be a lot of beating around the bush done that's for sure.
Even if hill's and FT are both listed as not the problem of failure, if a part is found to of failed, maybe more details on the oil pump? then The insurance company can go after that company.
Something needs to happen. It sucks when both parties feel Meh, not me. but this isn't about the blame game, it's about making a customer happy now, and doing the foot work to make your money back later (court/insurance/wherever)
I know FT has installed a lot of APS single and twin systems. I find it odd that he would just add more oil unless he has never had an issue with any of the cars before him and as stated above didn't follow "just because" advice.
Or maybe he didn't add any oil, maybe some how it was high before FT got the car, or when the motor blew, all the extra crap in the oil helped push the level up.
Either way, in the end, high oil can cause you to blow out a seal causing an oil leak.
I've yet to hear of high oil (if it was high) causing a bearing to dry up and fail....
I agree that Cass needs his car done or money. People keep saying FT/Hills need to pay out and settle it later.
Who pays what? does Frank pay 50% and Dave pay 50% then go to court over it? does frank pay 80% since he built it and dave 20% since he tuned it? Would a judge side with Frank knowing tuning can cause oil starvation and bearing failure? This is just a big mess.
If I were Dave, I would go to my insurance company, explain that a car blew up under my watch, however, it has yet to be seen as to who's at fault since "background story" and ask for them to write a check to get the customer back on the road with either cash or a fresh re-re-re-build.
Insurance companies while mostly evil, sometimes are not all that bad if used in the right way. They are paid for a reason, they have lawyers you the insurer pay for, they have good lawyers since paying out a claim is the last thing they want to do.
Once the claim is submitted, the insurance company will get involved in the case and will go after the money they lost to get one of their customer's customer back on the road.
IMO this is the best and worst thing to happen for a shop. Just think how people would view FT if Dave had a check for him when it so far looks like it's not his problem, but it did happen at FT, here's the insurance money, then send his insurance company to Hills to work out the details of whos problem it is.
Insurance lawyers are very quick at trying to get things straightened out when their money is on the line. There wouldn't be a lot of beating around the bush done that's for sure.
Even if hill's and FT are both listed as not the problem of failure, if a part is found to of failed, maybe more details on the oil pump? then The insurance company can go after that company.
Something needs to happen. It sucks when both parties feel Meh, not me. but this isn't about the blame game, it's about making a customer happy now, and doing the foot work to make your money back later (court/insurance/wherever)
i think both parties need to be completely honest and with each other. i like dave and frank. they are both great guys and very knowledged in this field. and they are both friends of mine.
this motor fail just has so many different variables.. everything needs to be worked out..
07-12-2009, 08:11 AM
#1604
Keep in mind..... its motors and failures.....plural. Similar failures using the same builder and failing in the same way at the same place.
I was real nice the first time around and I had the car for a few days, so people could always speculate that I did something to cntribute to the failure. I removed myself from the equation this time around thank God.
I was real nice the first time around and I had the car for a few days, so people could always speculate that I did something to cntribute to the failure. I removed myself from the equation this time around thank God.
07-12-2009, 09:06 AM
#1605
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overfilling a crankcase will cause airation and will destroy a motor.....this $h!t is like 101.
now i wasn't there,so i don't know the details of "how much oil was in there" but it's a valid path to follow considering the type of carnage.
bench testing of the oil pump will at least offer clues as to what else should be considered and overfilling should not be off the table.
07-12-2009, 09:41 AM
#1606
overfilling a crankcase will cause airation and will destroy a motor.....this $h!t is like 101.
now i wasn't there,so i don't know the details of "how much oil was in there" but it's a valid path to follow considering the type of carnage.
bench testing of the oil pump will at least offer clues as to what else should be considered and overfilling should not be off the table.
now i wasn't there,so i don't know the details of "how much oil was in there" but it's a valid path to follow considering the type of carnage.
bench testing of the oil pump will at least offer clues as to what else should be considered and overfilling should not be off the table.
07-12-2009, 10:09 AM
#1607
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That's true, but it still doesn't put the oil level above the factory level. A few quarts above the factory fill line may cause aeration, but I feel the over filled oil level is barking up the wrong tree.
It was my understanding that the lower fill level was to assist drainback from the turbochargers to prevent seeping past the seals. Even with the lower fill line, you have more oil in the system due to the larger sump, the pickup tube is adjusted for such with a spacer that Cass confirmed was installed.
07-12-2009, 10:30 AM
#1608
It was my understanding that the lower fill level was to assist drainback from the turbochargers to prevent seeping past the seals. Even with the lower fill line, you have more oil in the system due to the larger sump, the pickup tube is adjusted for such with a spacer that Cass confirmed was installed.
although it would be piece of mind as to why it failed.
07-12-2009, 10:35 AM
#1610
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Keep in mind..... its motors and failures.....plural. Similar failures using the same builder and failing in the same way at the same place.
I was real nice the first time around and I had the car for a few days, so people could always speculate that I did something to cntribute to the failure. I removed myself from the equation this time around thank God.
I was real nice the first time around and I had the car for a few days, so people could always speculate that I did something to cntribute to the failure. I removed myself from the equation this time around thank God.
yeah....those that speculated on that are just nuthugging fail... only defense "he is a nice guy"
07-12-2009, 11:48 AM
#1611
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Chris, Sucks even more than any other result so far.
IMHO get your car away from both of these shops (as you are doing).
You have a motor that looks like it just did a full season of ALMS racing and it ran for less than 1000miles. To me either something (like say um A RAG) caused debree to get into the motor and starve parts for oil OR, the motor was not Mic'd out when it was built. IE they didn't measure the tolerances of bearings, shaft play, etc and used the wrong bearing clearances and such.
And the turbo OMG Chris, you should HAVE DEMANDED a full inspection at FRANK's cost when it was found. But thats beside the point
Give them an ultimatum at this point.....Either they pay another shop (UP FRONT btw) to rectify the situation cause these 2 CANNOT BE TRUSTED with your car/parts at this point. Or a judge can have them refund ALL your money based on receipts, plus pay any damages for your lost time (and yes a judge can/will do this..I had to for a shop up here years ago that did something similar to my Z31)........up to them.
tom
IMHO get your car away from both of these shops (as you are doing).
You have a motor that looks like it just did a full season of ALMS racing and it ran for less than 1000miles. To me either something (like say um A RAG) caused debree to get into the motor and starve parts for oil OR, the motor was not Mic'd out when it was built. IE they didn't measure the tolerances of bearings, shaft play, etc and used the wrong bearing clearances and such.
And the turbo OMG Chris, you should HAVE DEMANDED a full inspection at FRANK's cost when it was found. But thats beside the point
Give them an ultimatum at this point.....Either they pay another shop (UP FRONT btw) to rectify the situation cause these 2 CANNOT BE TRUSTED with your car/parts at this point. Or a judge can have them refund ALL your money based on receipts, plus pay any damages for your lost time (and yes a judge can/will do this..I had to for a shop up here years ago that did something similar to my Z31)........up to them.
tom
Last edited by thom000001; 07-12-2009 at 11:49 AM.
07-12-2009, 01:39 PM
#1612
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I agree.... And also the fact that a new motor has not yet been installed in Chris car goes to show you what kind of shops Chris has been doing business with. I agree with this post Chris.... Get a lawyer to light a fire under the shop who is at fault. When the courts see what you have gone through with not one motor ... But two.... They will award you way more than what you have coming!!!!
What does this tear down have to do with you Chris??? Why do you care what's found????the second the motor blew up is the same second the motor stopped belonging to you. You should have started this thread to discuss your replacement motor... Not to discuss a motor that is obviously not yours anymore.
Come on now..... I have been watching and reading and responding to PM"s..... I hope the shop that is at fault ( and even Steve Wander can see which shop that is) does not think that this is just going to go away.... This will be a very painful experience for all involved..... It will be a very easy and cheaper process to install the motor.... Give Chris what he paid for and close this horror story.... This is really a hit against the VQ community......
To all the people that are considering going FI...... This is not how others are treated. The process for most is easy...IMO.
What does this tear down have to do with you Chris??? Why do you care what's found????the second the motor blew up is the same second the motor stopped belonging to you. You should have started this thread to discuss your replacement motor... Not to discuss a motor that is obviously not yours anymore.
Come on now..... I have been watching and reading and responding to PM"s..... I hope the shop that is at fault ( and even Steve Wander can see which shop that is) does not think that this is just going to go away.... This will be a very painful experience for all involved..... It will be a very easy and cheaper process to install the motor.... Give Chris what he paid for and close this horror story.... This is really a hit against the VQ community......
To all the people that are considering going FI...... This is not how others are treated. The process for most is easy...IMO.
Chris, Sucks even more than any other result so far.
IMHO get your car away from both of these shops (as you are doing).
You have a motor that looks like it just did a full season of ALMS racing and it ran for less than 1000miles. To me either something (like say um A RAG) caused debree to get into the motor and starve parts for oil OR, the motor was not Mic'd out when it was built. IE they didn't measure the tolerances of bearings, shaft play, etc and used the wrong bearing clearances and such.
And the turbo OMG Chris, you should HAVE DEMANDED a full inspection at FRANK's cost when it was found. But thats beside the point
Give them an ultimatum at this point.....Either they pay another shop (UP FRONT btw) to rectify the situation cause these 2 CANNOT BE TRUSTED with your car/parts at this point. Or a judge can have them refund ALL your money based on receipts, plus pay any damages for your lost time (and yes a judge can/will do this..I had to for a shop up here years ago that did something similar to my Z31)........up to them.
tom
IMHO get your car away from both of these shops (as you are doing).
You have a motor that looks like it just did a full season of ALMS racing and it ran for less than 1000miles. To me either something (like say um A RAG) caused debree to get into the motor and starve parts for oil OR, the motor was not Mic'd out when it was built. IE they didn't measure the tolerances of bearings, shaft play, etc and used the wrong bearing clearances and such.
And the turbo OMG Chris, you should HAVE DEMANDED a full inspection at FRANK's cost when it was found. But thats beside the point
Give them an ultimatum at this point.....Either they pay another shop (UP FRONT btw) to rectify the situation cause these 2 CANNOT BE TRUSTED with your car/parts at this point. Or a judge can have them refund ALL your money based on receipts, plus pay any damages for your lost time (and yes a judge can/will do this..I had to for a shop up here years ago that did something similar to my Z31)........up to them.
tom
07-12-2009, 02:34 PM
#1613
Cass you should dictate what you would like to see done and stipulate a reasonable time line for the work. Draw it up as you would a legal document and have each party sign a copy agreeing to the terms. No one is going to want to put it in writing, so if you remain passive and hope they'll work things out between themselves, I have a feeling you'll be disappointed, again. Someone is going to be taking a big hit and it's not in their interest to expedite outgoing cash flow; especially when there is some ambiguity as to the root cause of the failure that they can reference as an excuse to delay.
I dearly hope you will insist that only one shop builds and guarantees this final build, but that is your choice. You do have the VQ community behind you - use it to your advantage.
Good luck.
I dearly hope you will insist that only one shop builds and guarantees this final build, but that is your choice. You do have the VQ community behind you - use it to your advantage.
Good luck.
07-12-2009, 02:52 PM
#1614
Just to clear a few things up here.
1. The turbo was fresh and new when installed at Hills. The damage was done by a rag left in the passengers side intake that was found when the car was being tuned and would not make boost. I was then told that there was a slightly bent fin, but the turbo was fine otherwise. Either this was not the complete truth or the impeller was slowly consuming itself during the tuning process.
2. The mouse turds could have happened at either shop. The car has been in shops for the past 8 months almost. I am just concerned about having rodents causing wiring gremlins.
3. thefireboy = Hill's Garage supporter
Driven1 = F:T supporter
I know both Nick and Robbie and they are good people. I have tried very hard to not speculate or cause any harm to the shops involved from the start of this process, but as my car just sits and the shops don't seem to be working together to resolve my issues, I am forced to start just looking after my own best interests and let the chips fall where they may.
4. I have no win in this situation at all. If the shops make me whole they will both feel slighted about replacing things they don't think they are responsible for. If I seek legal recourse I will alienate several of the nice people I have met at the local meets since I will be suing their shops and friends. If I get a car back now, will I ever be able to push it without waiting to hear the clanking of rod knock after a run.
5. If legal action is necessary, everyone gets sued. Sorry, but I'm a businessman and this isn't the first time I've had to do this unfortunately. You don't pick and choose, you file on everyone involved and see if they can work out a solution or someone pays me and then they (or their insurance companies) sue each other to recoup some of their loss. If shops think the cost of my rebuild is expensive, just wait till you see the lawsiut (not a threat, just the reality).
Good question, but I doubt a clear answer will ever surface.
WHAT?!?!? Do you any stickers on my car? I am sponsored by myself and my wallet.....period. $5500 for the ViPEC with associated hardware and a tune seemed fair, if Dave had more time in then he expected I'm sure it would come back to him if ViPEC becomes the next big EMS and he is the main guru for it.
Any discounts I got from Frank were based on three things - I was his shops premire build, the volume of work that I had done (many other mods were done when the turbos and motor were done), and the fact that I paid cash money for everything. Usually running a credit balance at all times to make sure parts were covered in advance. Honestly I don't think you know much about the reality of my situation.
This is a bad bet for sure. I'm 3 motors deep and the car has never seen the road under boost with me driving. This is moving past relationships and "I'm sorry" to business and there is nothing I can do about that.
1. The turbo was fresh and new when installed at Hills. The damage was done by a rag left in the passengers side intake that was found when the car was being tuned and would not make boost. I was then told that there was a slightly bent fin, but the turbo was fine otherwise. Either this was not the complete truth or the impeller was slowly consuming itself during the tuning process.
2. The mouse turds could have happened at either shop. The car has been in shops for the past 8 months almost. I am just concerned about having rodents causing wiring gremlins.
3. thefireboy = Hill's Garage supporter
Driven1 = F:T supporter
I know both Nick and Robbie and they are good people. I have tried very hard to not speculate or cause any harm to the shops involved from the start of this process, but as my car just sits and the shops don't seem to be working together to resolve my issues, I am forced to start just looking after my own best interests and let the chips fall where they may.
4. I have no win in this situation at all. If the shops make me whole they will both feel slighted about replacing things they don't think they are responsible for. If I seek legal recourse I will alienate several of the nice people I have met at the local meets since I will be suing their shops and friends. If I get a car back now, will I ever be able to push it without waiting to hear the clanking of rod knock after a run.
5. If legal action is necessary, everyone gets sued. Sorry, but I'm a businessman and this isn't the first time I've had to do this unfortunately. You don't pick and choose, you file on everyone involved and see if they can work out a solution or someone pays me and then they (or their insurance companies) sue each other to recoup some of their loss. If shops think the cost of my rebuild is expensive, just wait till you see the lawsiut (not a threat, just the reality).
Good question, but I doubt a clear answer will ever surface.
WHAT?!?!? Do you any stickers on my car? I am sponsored by myself and my wallet.....period. $5500 for the ViPEC with associated hardware and a tune seemed fair, if Dave had more time in then he expected I'm sure it would come back to him if ViPEC becomes the next big EMS and he is the main guru for it.
Any discounts I got from Frank were based on three things - I was his shops premire build, the volume of work that I had done (many other mods were done when the turbos and motor were done), and the fact that I paid cash money for everything. Usually running a credit balance at all times to make sure parts were covered in advance. Honestly I don't think you know much about the reality of my situation.
This is a bad bet for sure. I'm 3 motors deep and the car has never seen the road under boost with me driving. This is moving past relationships and "I'm sorry" to business and there is nothing I can do about that.
OUTSTANDING!!
07-12-2009, 03:17 PM
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the process is really easy !!!! In fact it is suppose to be fun because this is a hobby and hobby activities are suppose to be fun. What cass has experienced is complete fail and quite frankly unbelievable.
Cass, join the club full of win
1. Get the money back.
2. Build the car.
3. Xkr buys everyone dinner at zdayz to celebrate, lol. The mad scientist and toast will buy beers
07-12-2009, 03:28 PM
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Raj is right - we as a community are all standing ready for action. You couldn't ask for a better group of honest people to help you push through this horrific problem.
Time to get to work. ZdayZ 2010 is right around the corner
- paul
07-12-2009, 03:36 PM
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Wow sucks pretty dam bad.
On the rag issue, the shredded bits looked insanely horrible. Blockage of oil squirters, other oil passages, and jacking up the bearings would be my guess.
On the rag issue, the shredded bits looked insanely horrible. Blockage of oil squirters, other oil passages, and jacking up the bearings would be my guess.
07-12-2009, 03:56 PM
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+infinity
the process is really easy !!!! In fact it is suppose to be fun because this is a hobby and hobby activities are suppose to be fun. What cass has experienced is complete fail and quite frankly unbelievable.
Cass, join the club full of win
1. Get the money back.
2. Build the car.
3. Xkr buys everyone dinner at zdayz to celebrate, lol. The mad scientist and toast will buy beers
the process is really easy !!!! In fact it is suppose to be fun because this is a hobby and hobby activities are suppose to be fun. What cass has experienced is complete fail and quite frankly unbelievable.
Cass, join the club full of win
1. Get the money back.
2. Build the car.
3. Xkr buys everyone dinner at zdayz to celebrate, lol. The mad scientist and toast will buy beers
BTW.... Jkenefic has changed his screen name to "Mad Scientist".... someone asked me about that... Just wanted to pass tha info on....