My Build: The Good, The Bad & The Progress
07-13-2009, 03:28 PM
#1661
I spoke to Dave today. He called and apologized for being out of the loop as he had a customer in a hotel waiting on his build that took longer than expected. Dave said that he does not feel as though he made any errors or contributed to the failure in any way, but he does feel that I need to be taken care of as a customer. He again offered his built motor and I explained that I lost everything again and a motor would not make me whole.
I explained where the other shops were in regards to any efforts to make me happy (none) and that I am being pushed into a corner with no options on what to do other than sue everyone.
Dave said he will attempt to contact the other parties and mediate a solution for me that will get me back to where I was previously. I told him I would consider a solution if upon rebiuld either F:T or Justice was 100% responsible for my car (Hills doesn't tune).
I spoke to Frank later and he had not spoken to Dave yet. He said he was sorry, but there is no gaurantee for builds like mine and he would have taken care of me if the teardown would have revealed that he was at fault for the failure. He and I both see where this is headed, awkward and sad doesn't even begin to cover how it feels.
I had one of my employees pick up my parts from Hills today and am attempting to get the car towed back to my house asap.
Thats it for today.... time to start drinking again, its becoming a daily habit. I can tell I'm getting short tempered with my wife, son and employees. I'm trying to compartmentalize this, but its stressing me out.
I explained where the other shops were in regards to any efforts to make me happy (none) and that I am being pushed into a corner with no options on what to do other than sue everyone.
Dave said he will attempt to contact the other parties and mediate a solution for me that will get me back to where I was previously. I told him I would consider a solution if upon rebiuld either F:T or Justice was 100% responsible for my car (Hills doesn't tune).
I spoke to Frank later and he had not spoken to Dave yet. He said he was sorry, but there is no gaurantee for builds like mine and he would have taken care of me if the teardown would have revealed that he was at fault for the failure. He and I both see where this is headed, awkward and sad doesn't even begin to cover how it feels.
I had one of my employees pick up my parts from Hills today and am attempting to get the car towed back to my house asap.
Thats it for today.... time to start drinking again, its becoming a daily habit. I can tell I'm getting short tempered with my wife, son and employees. I'm trying to compartmentalize this, but its stressing me out.
Take Dave up on the offer ASAP and leave the other 2 to serious court room pow wow if ya can man.
07-13-2009, 03:34 PM
#1662
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I spoke to Dave today. He called and apologized for being out of the loop as he had a customer in a hotel waiting on his build that took longer than expected. Dave said that he does not feel as though he made any errors or contributed to the failure in any way, but he does feel that I need to be taken care of as a customer. He again offered his built motor and I explained that I lost everything again and a motor would not make me whole.
I explained where the other shops were in regards to any efforts to make me happy (none) and that I am being pushed into a corner with no options on what to do other than sue everyone.
Dave said he will attempt to contact the other parties and mediate a solution for me that will get me back to where I was previously. I told him I would consider a solution if upon rebiuld either F:T or Justice was 100% responsible for my car (Hills doesn't tune).
I spoke to Frank later and he had not spoken to Dave yet. He said he was sorry, but there is no gaurantee for builds like mine and he would have taken care of me if the teardown would have revealed that he was at fault for the failure. He and I both see where this is headed, awkward and sad doesn't even begin to cover how it feels.
I had one of my employees pick up my parts from Hills today and am attempting to get the car towed back to my house asap.
Thats it for today.... time to start drinking again, its becoming a daily habit. I can tell I'm getting short tempered with my wife, son and employees. I'm trying to compartmentalize this, but its stressing me out.
I explained where the other shops were in regards to any efforts to make me happy (none) and that I am being pushed into a corner with no options on what to do other than sue everyone.
Dave said he will attempt to contact the other parties and mediate a solution for me that will get me back to where I was previously. I told him I would consider a solution if upon rebiuld either F:T or Justice was 100% responsible for my car (Hills doesn't tune).
I spoke to Frank later and he had not spoken to Dave yet. He said he was sorry, but there is no gaurantee for builds like mine and he would have taken care of me if the teardown would have revealed that he was at fault for the failure. He and I both see where this is headed, awkward and sad doesn't even begin to cover how it feels.
I had one of my employees pick up my parts from Hills today and am attempting to get the car towed back to my house asap.
Thats it for today.... time to start drinking again, its becoming a daily habit. I can tell I'm getting short tempered with my wife, son and employees. I'm trying to compartmentalize this, but its stressing me out.
Basically giving you the brush off.
Seriously I would look for compensation on the previous build
apart from what you should be getting for this last one.
You don't even have the stock block to fall back on because of him.
I'm sorry but I'm heated just hearing the way Frank just dismissed you like that after all that went down. I would look for compensation for loss of transportation and anything else. I would not consider Frank a friend after he pulls a stunt like that.
Gloves are off
07-13-2009, 03:51 PM
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Chris if you have access to a truck with a 7 wire round plug and electric brakes (standard equip for a trailer with brakes) and need a car trailer, I have a brand new one sitting at my house. All you'd need to do is supply straps.
I'll PM you my phone number.
I'll PM you my phone number.
07-13-2009, 04:52 PM
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There is a discussion going on in PM with a few of you. The point was brought up about Dave mentioning the fact that low oil pressure showed up on dyno....The question was asked...How do I know that the damage did not happen at that point
It was asked of me because it seemed to them that I was pointing my finger at Frank....to be honest....I am point my finger at all involved...because my understanding is Chris is not being put first...
So...is it at all possible that with all that has been put before us that Frank is not the only person at fault??.....The rag thing was explained to me....but is there a chance that Frank only has one foot in....Also the Turbo was also brought up.....Dave did say that the turbo was good......but as we all can see now....thats not the case. Could parts of the turbo be part of this problem
These are points that were put to me because of the direction they think I am going in.
It was asked of me because it seemed to them that I was pointing my finger at Frank....to be honest....I am point my finger at all involved...because my understanding is Chris is not being put first...
So...is it at all possible that with all that has been put before us that Frank is not the only person at fault??.....The rag thing was explained to me....but is there a chance that Frank only has one foot in....Also the Turbo was also brought up.....Dave did say that the turbo was good......but as we all can see now....thats not the case. Could parts of the turbo be part of this problem
These are points that were put to me because of the direction they think I am going in.
Last edited by XKR; 07-13-2009 at 04:55 PM.
07-13-2009, 05:12 PM
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There is a discussion going on in PM with a few of you. The point was brought up about Dave mentioning the fact that low oil pressure showed up on dyno....The question was asked...How do I know that the damage did not happen at that point
It was asked of me because it seemed to them that I was pointing my finger at Frank....to be honest....I am point my finger at all involved...because my understanding is Chris is not being put first...
So...is it at all possible that with all that has been put before us that Frank is not the only person at fault??.....The rag thing was explained to me....but is there a chance that Frank only has one foot in....Also the Turbo was also brought up.....Dave did say that the turbo was good......but as we all can see now....thats not the case. Could parts of the turbo be part of this problem
These are points that were put to me because of the direction they think I am going in.
It was asked of me because it seemed to them that I was pointing my finger at Frank....to be honest....I am point my finger at all involved...because my understanding is Chris is not being put first...
So...is it at all possible that with all that has been put before us that Frank is not the only person at fault??.....The rag thing was explained to me....but is there a chance that Frank only has one foot in....Also the Turbo was also brought up.....Dave did say that the turbo was good......but as we all can see now....thats not the case. Could parts of the turbo be part of this problem
These are points that were put to me because of the direction they think I am going in.
Not sure of the Dave post on the low oil pressure, but if that did happen then shame on Dave for not turning off the car and calling Frank.
Shame on Frank for building a motor which presented low oil pressure and not demanding to have the car back once that ridiculous rag fell out of the turbo inlet.
Shame on Justice for supplying the parts which Frank bolted together which then showed Dave the low oil pressure and then everyone just stood around and watch what could have been a great car go down the pipes into a puddle of black and grey goo.
Shame on Chris for paying for the failboat to stay a float.
Shame on us all. This is a huge fail for everyone reading this. Fail, Fail, Fail, Fail, Fail, Fail, Fail,....
07-13-2009, 05:19 PM
#1667
There is a discussion going on in PM with a few of you. The point was brought up about Dave mentioning the fact that low oil pressure showed up on dyno....The question was asked...How do I know that the damage did not happen at that point
It was asked of me because it seemed to them that I was pointing my finger at Frank....to be honest....I am point my finger at all involved...because my understanding is Chris is not being put first...
So...is it at all possible that with all that has been put before us that Frank is not the only person at fault??.....The rag thing was explained to me....but is there a chance that Frank only has one foot in....Also the Turbo was also brought up.....Dave did say that the turbo was good......but as we all can see now....thats not the case. Could parts of the turbo be part of this problem
These are points that were put to me because of the direction they think I am going in.
It was asked of me because it seemed to them that I was pointing my finger at Frank....to be honest....I am point my finger at all involved...because my understanding is Chris is not being put first...
So...is it at all possible that with all that has been put before us that Frank is not the only person at fault??.....The rag thing was explained to me....but is there a chance that Frank only has one foot in....Also the Turbo was also brought up.....Dave did say that the turbo was good......but as we all can see now....thats not the case. Could parts of the turbo be part of this problem
These are points that were put to me because of the direction they think I am going in.
1. I addressed the issue of the turbo impeller with Dave today on the phone and he said the has pic(s) (not sure if its one or more) of the impeller in the condition as it was described to me when he called Mike Blouch to get his input on if it was still good.
2. With the turbo looking as it did, is it not fair to assume that catasptophic failure was inevitable. The turbo appeared to be consuming itself and if it is out of balance (how could it not be?) then is it not common sense that at some point in the near future it would have failed completely and sent all the blades and such into the motor
?If Dave has the pic of the turbo it would be very relevent IMHO.
I will know a lot more about where I stand tomorrow. Just spoke to the tow driver, car will be home tomorrow.
07-13-2009, 05:30 PM
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I assume that thefireboy is sending you PMs, but that is neither here nor there.
1. I addressed the issue of the turbo impeller with Dave today on the phone and he said the has pic(s) (not sure if its one or more) of the impeller in the condition as it was described to me when he called Mike Blouch to get his input on if it was still good.
2. With the turbo looking as it did, is it not fair to assume that catasptophic failure was inevitable. The turbo appeared to be consuming itself and if it is out of balance (how could it not be?) then is it not common sense that at some point in the near future it would have failed completely and sent all the blades and such into the motor?
If Dave has the pic of the turbo it would be very relevent IMHO.
I will know a lot more about where I stand tomorrow. Just spoke to the tow driver, car will be home tomorrow.
1. I addressed the issue of the turbo impeller with Dave today on the phone and he said the has pic(s) (not sure if its one or more) of the impeller in the condition as it was described to me when he called Mike Blouch to get his input on if it was still good.
2. With the turbo looking as it did, is it not fair to assume that catasptophic failure was inevitable. The turbo appeared to be consuming itself and if it is out of balance (how could it not be?) then is it not common sense that at some point in the near future it would have failed completely and sent all the blades and such into the motor
?If Dave has the pic of the turbo it would be very relevent IMHO.
I will know a lot more about where I stand tomorrow. Just spoke to the tow driver, car will be home tomorrow.
And thats the point they are trying to drive home.....Too many "what ifs" to blame one person....and this is my point also....FIX CUSTOMERS CAR FIRST AND SETTLE UP LATER....
Like I said before....if this were my car thats what I would DEMAND....Dont pick a side Chris....let them figure it out on their own time.
The fact that Chris is not already back on the road is the main problem.
Not sure of the Dave post on the low oil pressure, but if that did happen then shame on Dave for not turning off the car and calling Frank.
Shame on Frank for building a motor which presented low oil pressure and not demanding to have the car back once that ridiculous rag fell out of the turbo inlet.
Shame on Justice for supplying the parts which Frank bolted together which then showed Dave the low oil pressure and then everyone just stood around and watch what could have been a great car go down the pipes into a puddle of black and grey goo.
Shame on Chris for paying for the failboat to stay a float.
Shame on us all. This is a huge fail for everyone reading this. Fail, Fail, Fail, Fail, Fail, Fail, Fail,....
Not sure of the Dave post on the low oil pressure, but if that did happen then shame on Dave for not turning off the car and calling Frank.
Shame on Frank for building a motor which presented low oil pressure and not demanding to have the car back once that ridiculous rag fell out of the turbo inlet.
Shame on Justice for supplying the parts which Frank bolted together which then showed Dave the low oil pressure and then everyone just stood around and watch what could have been a great car go down the pipes into a puddle of black and grey goo.
Shame on Chris for paying for the failboat to stay a float.
Shame on us all. This is a huge fail for everyone reading this. Fail, Fail, Fail, Fail, Fail, Fail, Fail,....
Last edited by XKR; 07-13-2009 at 05:54 PM.
07-13-2009, 05:32 PM
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The pictures you posted tell the complete story; all involved enough in this thread to take the time to analyze the pics know that now.
07-13-2009, 06:27 PM
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Another Point of View.
ok guys I don't get on this forum often after the recent BASHING of character I feel the need to express my view of this situation:
Let's start with the first motor failure:
The motor failed due to massive oil starvation. Upon disassembly and inspection the only issues found to explain loss of oil pressure were destroyed vtc seals and covers that were rubbing on the intake sprockets. Never having seen this before in my many vq35engine builds I attribute it to the difficulties I ran into installing the intake cam sprocket covers. Power coating build up inside the dowel pin holes lead to tight installation. Covers were removed several times, cleaning the powder coating and re-fitting. On the final installation the covers fit with a small gap at the ears containing the dowel pin holes. The powder coating was getting chipped as I was removing the covers and the customer and I decided not to try to remove again since the rest of the covers looked flush. I then took a soft rubber mallet and tapped the ears down over the dowel pins to seat. I initially thought this may have caused some flex or misalignment of the covers, that may have lead them to rub on the sprockets on the top side and the seals to kick out the bottom side. I did not see any other problems in the motor to explain oil starvation. The tolerances and clearances were set similar to over 20 other vq35 engines I have built over the last several years, which are still running in good condition today. I warned customer previously about prepping and taping holes/oil passages etc when powder coating to avoid contamination and issues such as this. The parts came back from the powder coater packed full of powder coating dust and over spray inside covers. Customer was informed that parts would be cleaned best as humanely possible but there is always a chance of possible issues. Feeling partially responsible for this since I didn't advise the customer to scrap these parts and buy new ones and start over, we worked out an agreement where customer would supply the parts given purchased at our cost and Hill's Garage would supply free labor. Customer was happy with agreement and so we proceeded to the next motor build.
Motor number two:
Justice Racing Engines did an excellent job with the machine work and blue printing of the short block. The only parts reused in this build were valve covers, valve springs and timing covers. All other parts came from customer's low mileage original engine. Microscopic attention to detail was given in the assembly of this engine due to the circumstances of the first engine. Upon start up the engine sounded very good and was very quiet but would not idle below 2800 rpm due to the vipec losing it's throttle settings somehow according to FT. The car would not run off of the reflashed factory ecu alone as it was pulling too much fuel. The engine was run several times, cooling system bled but I could not run for extended amount of time or test drive car due to state of current tune. The engine oil was changed and a sample sent to Black Stone Labs for analysis. Lab results were received to show that the engine was healthy with normal break in of aluminum and iron from pistons and rings. Bearing type metals (aluminum, tin and copper) were very low. Black Stone advised there were no bearing problems showing at this time and to send another sample at 250 miles. The car was then shipped to FT for engine break in and tuning. Due to a hectic schedule at FT tuning was delayed for a short period. Customer and I meet at FT for a tuning session and was discovered car would not go in to boost, but ran fine otherwise. FT and I having just seen a set of knock off waste gates fall apart in an APS kit we automatically thought to check those first. FT jacked up the car and checked the waste gate plumbing and also checked the springs were installed. All checked out ok. As we were standing around scratching our heads as to why there was no boost. We decided to pack it up and FT would pull the waste gates at is next available time. We all went home disappointed, but at least the engine was running well and there was no signs of oil pressure issues. FT checked the waste gates with no problems found and then checked the intakes. This is when he found a chunk of rag in the right side intake filter! Upon further inspection he found the rest of the rag in the filter and scoped the rest of the intake system and cleaned residue from inner cooler pipes and reported that one of the the blades on the turbo was slightly bent. I offered customer full replacement of turbo and other damaged parts related to the rag if this was from my shop. On a "should be ok" by the turbo builder we decided to continue with tuning to keep with customer schedule. Many weeks later the customer informs us that the car is doing well and the car is making over 650 whp. EVERYONE HAPPY! Next phone call I get from customer the day he should be picking up his car from FT. Ft called to tell customer the car was on the side of the road with severe rod knock experience during some final touch ups to the tune. Found out later from customer that FT had experience some low oil pressure after repeated runs on the dyno the day before! FT had dismissed as the engine and oil getting hot and did not see this as a problem as he has seen this before. Never did I get a phone call about this potential problem or any updates on the progress of the tune what so ever form FT. Even when the engine failed I never received a call from FT. Knowing how much this engine means to me and my shop I found this very disrespectful. I paid to have the car towed back to Hill's Garage. The car arrived with ~500 miles on the odometer removed customer's engine and sent to Justice for disassembly and diagnosis of failure at my expense. Upon inspection there were NO ASSEMBLY ERRORS and NO PART FAILURES to explain the massive oil starvation that this engine ALSO experienced. There were similar markings inside the intake sprocket covers that make me want to reevaluate my diagnosis of the first engine failure, there is a possibility that the problems I found and was due to oil starvation and not the direct cause. Without data logs and accurate time line of events to help determine what operating conditions and or outside factors could have affected this engine I am not in a position to accept fault and pay for the customer's engine. If this is proven to be a mistake at Hill's Garage then we would gladly file and insurance claim and cut the customer a check, but we can't until there is evidence that there was negligence on behalf of Hill's Garage that caused this failure. We can't afford to buy the customer a new engine as were a new business struggling to survive in the poor economy, but we assure you this 'we stand behind our workmanship 100% ',and this will not close the doors for our many other happy customers. Lots of hard lessons learned here, and we really like the customer and hope that we can come to some sort of resolve. We understand that his only position at this point is to move forward with legal action. People may say what they wish, but we don't have time to frequent this forum as I am running a business, and raising a family. So please don't be disappointed if you receive no response to your post. You are welcome to your opinions as we all have them, maybe some should think before they type! If anyone feels as though they would like to discuss this situation please give us a call at Hill's Garage Inc.
Good luck to all involved in this unfortunate situation, let the chips fall as they may!
Let's start with the first motor failure:
The motor failed due to massive oil starvation. Upon disassembly and inspection the only issues found to explain loss of oil pressure were destroyed vtc seals and covers that were rubbing on the intake sprockets. Never having seen this before in my many vq35engine builds I attribute it to the difficulties I ran into installing the intake cam sprocket covers. Power coating build up inside the dowel pin holes lead to tight installation. Covers were removed several times, cleaning the powder coating and re-fitting. On the final installation the covers fit with a small gap at the ears containing the dowel pin holes. The powder coating was getting chipped as I was removing the covers and the customer and I decided not to try to remove again since the rest of the covers looked flush. I then took a soft rubber mallet and tapped the ears down over the dowel pins to seat. I initially thought this may have caused some flex or misalignment of the covers, that may have lead them to rub on the sprockets on the top side and the seals to kick out the bottom side. I did not see any other problems in the motor to explain oil starvation. The tolerances and clearances were set similar to over 20 other vq35 engines I have built over the last several years, which are still running in good condition today. I warned customer previously about prepping and taping holes/oil passages etc when powder coating to avoid contamination and issues such as this. The parts came back from the powder coater packed full of powder coating dust and over spray inside covers. Customer was informed that parts would be cleaned best as humanely possible but there is always a chance of possible issues. Feeling partially responsible for this since I didn't advise the customer to scrap these parts and buy new ones and start over, we worked out an agreement where customer would supply the parts given purchased at our cost and Hill's Garage would supply free labor. Customer was happy with agreement and so we proceeded to the next motor build.
Motor number two:
Justice Racing Engines did an excellent job with the machine work and blue printing of the short block. The only parts reused in this build were valve covers, valve springs and timing covers. All other parts came from customer's low mileage original engine. Microscopic attention to detail was given in the assembly of this engine due to the circumstances of the first engine. Upon start up the engine sounded very good and was very quiet but would not idle below 2800 rpm due to the vipec losing it's throttle settings somehow according to FT. The car would not run off of the reflashed factory ecu alone as it was pulling too much fuel. The engine was run several times, cooling system bled but I could not run for extended amount of time or test drive car due to state of current tune. The engine oil was changed and a sample sent to Black Stone Labs for analysis. Lab results were received to show that the engine was healthy with normal break in of aluminum and iron from pistons and rings. Bearing type metals (aluminum, tin and copper) were very low. Black Stone advised there were no bearing problems showing at this time and to send another sample at 250 miles. The car was then shipped to FT for engine break in and tuning. Due to a hectic schedule at FT tuning was delayed for a short period. Customer and I meet at FT for a tuning session and was discovered car would not go in to boost, but ran fine otherwise. FT and I having just seen a set of knock off waste gates fall apart in an APS kit we automatically thought to check those first. FT jacked up the car and checked the waste gate plumbing and also checked the springs were installed. All checked out ok. As we were standing around scratching our heads as to why there was no boost. We decided to pack it up and FT would pull the waste gates at is next available time. We all went home disappointed, but at least the engine was running well and there was no signs of oil pressure issues. FT checked the waste gates with no problems found and then checked the intakes. This is when he found a chunk of rag in the right side intake filter! Upon further inspection he found the rest of the rag in the filter and scoped the rest of the intake system and cleaned residue from inner cooler pipes and reported that one of the the blades on the turbo was slightly bent. I offered customer full replacement of turbo and other damaged parts related to the rag if this was from my shop. On a "should be ok" by the turbo builder we decided to continue with tuning to keep with customer schedule. Many weeks later the customer informs us that the car is doing well and the car is making over 650 whp. EVERYONE HAPPY! Next phone call I get from customer the day he should be picking up his car from FT. Ft called to tell customer the car was on the side of the road with severe rod knock experience during some final touch ups to the tune. Found out later from customer that FT had experience some low oil pressure after repeated runs on the dyno the day before! FT had dismissed as the engine and oil getting hot and did not see this as a problem as he has seen this before. Never did I get a phone call about this potential problem or any updates on the progress of the tune what so ever form FT. Even when the engine failed I never received a call from FT. Knowing how much this engine means to me and my shop I found this very disrespectful. I paid to have the car towed back to Hill's Garage. The car arrived with ~500 miles on the odometer removed customer's engine and sent to Justice for disassembly and diagnosis of failure at my expense. Upon inspection there were NO ASSEMBLY ERRORS and NO PART FAILURES to explain the massive oil starvation that this engine ALSO experienced. There were similar markings inside the intake sprocket covers that make me want to reevaluate my diagnosis of the first engine failure, there is a possibility that the problems I found and was due to oil starvation and not the direct cause. Without data logs and accurate time line of events to help determine what operating conditions and or outside factors could have affected this engine I am not in a position to accept fault and pay for the customer's engine. If this is proven to be a mistake at Hill's Garage then we would gladly file and insurance claim and cut the customer a check, but we can't until there is evidence that there was negligence on behalf of Hill's Garage that caused this failure. We can't afford to buy the customer a new engine as were a new business struggling to survive in the poor economy, but we assure you this 'we stand behind our workmanship 100% ',and this will not close the doors for our many other happy customers. Lots of hard lessons learned here, and we really like the customer and hope that we can come to some sort of resolve. We understand that his only position at this point is to move forward with legal action. People may say what they wish, but we don't have time to frequent this forum as I am running a business, and raising a family. So please don't be disappointed if you receive no response to your post. You are welcome to your opinions as we all have them, maybe some should think before they type! If anyone feels as though they would like to discuss this situation please give us a call at Hill's Garage Inc.
Good luck to all involved in this unfortunate situation, let the chips fall as they may!
07-13-2009, 06:51 PM
#1673
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ok guys I don't get on this forum often after the recent BASHING of character I feel the need to express my view of this situation:
Let's start with the first motor failure:
The motor failed due to massive oil starvation. Upon disassembly and inspection the only issues found to explain loss of oil pressure were destroyed vtc seals and covers that were rubbing on the intake sprockets. Never having seen this before in my many vq35engine builds I attribute it to the difficulties I ran into installing the intake cam sprocket covers. Power coating build up inside the dowel pin holes lead to tight installation. Covers were removed several times, cleaning the powder coating and re-fitting. On the final installation the covers fit with a small gap at the ears containing the dowel pin holes. The powder coating was getting chipped as I was removing the covers and the customer and I decided not to try to remove again since the rest of the covers looked flush. I then took a soft rubber mallet and tapped the ears down over the dowel pins to seat. I initially thought this may have caused some flex or misalignment of the covers, that may have lead them to rub on the sprockets on the top side and the seals to kick out the bottom side. I did not see any other problems in the motor to explain oil starvation. The tolerances and clearances were set similar to over 20 other vq35 engines I have built over the last several years, which are still running in good condition today. I warned customer previously about prepping and taping holes/oil passages etc when powder coating to avoid contamination and issues such as this. The parts came back from the powder coater packed full of powder coating dust and over spray inside covers. Customer was informed that parts would be cleaned best as humanely possible but there is always a chance of possible issues. Feeling partially responsible for this since I didn't advise the customer to scrap these parts and buy new ones and start over, we worked out an agreement where customer would supply the parts given purchased at our cost and Hill's Garage would supply free labor. Customer was happy with agreement and so we proceeded to the next motor build.
Motor number two:
Justice Racing Engines did an excellent job with the machine work and blue printing of the short block. The only parts reused in this build were valve covers, valve springs and timing covers. All other parts came from customer's low mileage original engine. Microscopic attention to detail was given in the assembly of this engine due to the circumstances of the first engine. Upon start up the engine sounded very good and was very quiet but would not idle below 2800 rpm due to the vipec losing it's throttle settings somehow according to FT. The car would not run off of the reflashed factory ecu alone as it was pulling too much fuel. The engine was run several times, cooling system bled but I could not run for extended amount of time or test drive car due to state of current tune. The engine oil was changed and a sample sent to Black Stone Labs for analysis. Lab results were received to show that the engine was healthy with normal break in of aluminum and iron from pistons and rings. Bearing type metals (aluminum, tin and copper) were very low. Black Stone advised there were no bearing problems showing at this time and to send another sample at 250 miles. The car was then shipped to FT for engine break in and tuning. Due to a hectic schedule at FT tuning was delayed for a short period. Customer and I meet at FT for a tuning session and was discovered car would not go in to boost, but ran fine otherwise. FT and I having just seen a set of knock off waste gates fall apart in an APS kit we automatically thought to check those first. FT jacked up the car and checked the waste gate plumbing and also checked the springs were installed. All checked out ok. As we were standing around scratching our heads as to why there was no boost. We decided to pack it up and FT would pull the waste gates at is next available time. We all went home disappointed, but at least the engine was running well and there was no signs of oil pressure issues. FT checked the waste gates with no problems found and then checked the intakes. This is when he found a chunk of rag in the right side intake filter! Upon further inspection he found the rest of the rag in the filter and scoped the rest of the intake system and cleaned residue from inner cooler pipes and reported that one of the the blades on the turbo was slightly bent. I offered customer full replacement of turbo and other damaged parts related to the rag if this was from my shop. On a "should be ok" by the turbo builder we decided to continue with tuning to keep with customer schedule. Many weeks later the customer informs us that the car is doing well and the car is making over 650 whp. EVERYONE HAPPY! Next phone call I get from customer the day he should be picking up his car from FT. Ft called to tell customer the car was on the side of the road with severe rod knock experience during some final touch ups to the tune. Found out later from customer that FT had experience some low oil pressure after repeated runs on the dyno the day before! FT had dismissed as the engine and oil getting hot and did not see this as a problem as he has seen this before. Never did I get a phone call about this potential problem or any updates on the progress of the tune what so ever form FT. Even when the engine failed I never received a call from FT. Knowing how much this engine means to me and my shop I found this very disrespectful. I paid to have the car towed back to Hill's Garage. The car arrived with ~500 miles on the odometer removed customer's engine and sent to Justice for disassembly and diagnosis of failure at my expense. Upon inspection there were NO ASSEMBLY ERRORS and NO PART FAILURES to explain the massive oil starvation that this engine ALSO experienced. There were similar markings inside the intake sprocket covers that make me want to reevaluate my diagnosis of the first engine failure, there is a possibility that the problems I found and was due to oil starvation and not the direct cause. Without data logs and accurate time line of events to help determine what operating conditions and or outside factors could have affected this engine I am not in a position to accept fault and pay for the customer's engine. If this is proven to be a mistake at Hill's Garage then we would gladly file and insurance claim and cut the customer a check, but we can't until there is evidence that there was negligence on behalf of Hill's Garage that caused this failure. We can't afford to buy the customer a new engine as were a new business struggling to survive in the poor economy, but we assure you this 'we stand behind our workmanship 100% ',and this will not close the doors for our many other happy customers. Lots of hard lessons learned here, and we really like the customer and hope that we can come to some sort of resolve. We understand that his only position at this point is to move forward with legal action. People may say what they wish, but we don't have time to frequent this forum as I am running a business, and raising a family. So please don't be disappointed if you receive no response to your post. You are welcome to your opinions as we all have them, maybe some should think before they type! If anyone feels as though they would like to discuss this situation please give us a call at Hill's Garage Inc.
Good luck to all involved in this unfortunate situation, let the chips fall as they may!
Let's start with the first motor failure:
The motor failed due to massive oil starvation. Upon disassembly and inspection the only issues found to explain loss of oil pressure were destroyed vtc seals and covers that were rubbing on the intake sprockets. Never having seen this before in my many vq35engine builds I attribute it to the difficulties I ran into installing the intake cam sprocket covers. Power coating build up inside the dowel pin holes lead to tight installation. Covers were removed several times, cleaning the powder coating and re-fitting. On the final installation the covers fit with a small gap at the ears containing the dowel pin holes. The powder coating was getting chipped as I was removing the covers and the customer and I decided not to try to remove again since the rest of the covers looked flush. I then took a soft rubber mallet and tapped the ears down over the dowel pins to seat. I initially thought this may have caused some flex or misalignment of the covers, that may have lead them to rub on the sprockets on the top side and the seals to kick out the bottom side. I did not see any other problems in the motor to explain oil starvation. The tolerances and clearances were set similar to over 20 other vq35 engines I have built over the last several years, which are still running in good condition today. I warned customer previously about prepping and taping holes/oil passages etc when powder coating to avoid contamination and issues such as this. The parts came back from the powder coater packed full of powder coating dust and over spray inside covers. Customer was informed that parts would be cleaned best as humanely possible but there is always a chance of possible issues. Feeling partially responsible for this since I didn't advise the customer to scrap these parts and buy new ones and start over, we worked out an agreement where customer would supply the parts given purchased at our cost and Hill's Garage would supply free labor. Customer was happy with agreement and so we proceeded to the next motor build.
Motor number two:
Justice Racing Engines did an excellent job with the machine work and blue printing of the short block. The only parts reused in this build were valve covers, valve springs and timing covers. All other parts came from customer's low mileage original engine. Microscopic attention to detail was given in the assembly of this engine due to the circumstances of the first engine. Upon start up the engine sounded very good and was very quiet but would not idle below 2800 rpm due to the vipec losing it's throttle settings somehow according to FT. The car would not run off of the reflashed factory ecu alone as it was pulling too much fuel. The engine was run several times, cooling system bled but I could not run for extended amount of time or test drive car due to state of current tune. The engine oil was changed and a sample sent to Black Stone Labs for analysis. Lab results were received to show that the engine was healthy with normal break in of aluminum and iron from pistons and rings. Bearing type metals (aluminum, tin and copper) were very low. Black Stone advised there were no bearing problems showing at this time and to send another sample at 250 miles. The car was then shipped to FT for engine break in and tuning. Due to a hectic schedule at FT tuning was delayed for a short period. Customer and I meet at FT for a tuning session and was discovered car would not go in to boost, but ran fine otherwise. FT and I having just seen a set of knock off waste gates fall apart in an APS kit we automatically thought to check those first. FT jacked up the car and checked the waste gate plumbing and also checked the springs were installed. All checked out ok. As we were standing around scratching our heads as to why there was no boost. We decided to pack it up and FT would pull the waste gates at is next available time. We all went home disappointed, but at least the engine was running well and there was no signs of oil pressure issues. FT checked the waste gates with no problems found and then checked the intakes. This is when he found a chunk of rag in the right side intake filter! Upon further inspection he found the rest of the rag in the filter and scoped the rest of the intake system and cleaned residue from inner cooler pipes and reported that one of the the blades on the turbo was slightly bent. I offered customer full replacement of turbo and other damaged parts related to the rag if this was from my shop. On a "should be ok" by the turbo builder we decided to continue with tuning to keep with customer schedule. Many weeks later the customer informs us that the car is doing well and the car is making over 650 whp. EVERYONE HAPPY! Next phone call I get from customer the day he should be picking up his car from FT. Ft called to tell customer the car was on the side of the road with severe rod knock experience during some final touch ups to the tune. Found out later from customer that FT had experience some low oil pressure after repeated runs on the dyno the day before! FT had dismissed as the engine and oil getting hot and did not see this as a problem as he has seen this before. Never did I get a phone call about this potential problem or any updates on the progress of the tune what so ever form FT. Even when the engine failed I never received a call from FT. Knowing how much this engine means to me and my shop I found this very disrespectful. I paid to have the car towed back to Hill's Garage. The car arrived with ~500 miles on the odometer removed customer's engine and sent to Justice for disassembly and diagnosis of failure at my expense. Upon inspection there were NO ASSEMBLY ERRORS and NO PART FAILURES to explain the massive oil starvation that this engine ALSO experienced. There were similar markings inside the intake sprocket covers that make me want to reevaluate my diagnosis of the first engine failure, there is a possibility that the problems I found and was due to oil starvation and not the direct cause. Without data logs and accurate time line of events to help determine what operating conditions and or outside factors could have affected this engine I am not in a position to accept fault and pay for the customer's engine. If this is proven to be a mistake at Hill's Garage then we would gladly file and insurance claim and cut the customer a check, but we can't until there is evidence that there was negligence on behalf of Hill's Garage that caused this failure. We can't afford to buy the customer a new engine as were a new business struggling to survive in the poor economy, but we assure you this 'we stand behind our workmanship 100% ',and this will not close the doors for our many other happy customers. Lots of hard lessons learned here, and we really like the customer and hope that we can come to some sort of resolve. We understand that his only position at this point is to move forward with legal action. People may say what they wish, but we don't have time to frequent this forum as I am running a business, and raising a family. So please don't be disappointed if you receive no response to your post. You are welcome to your opinions as we all have them, maybe some should think before they type! If anyone feels as though they would like to discuss this situation please give us a call at Hill's Garage Inc.
Good luck to all involved in this unfortunate situation, let the chips fall as they may!
07-13-2009, 07:06 PM
#1674
ok guys I don't get on this forum often after the recent BASHING of character I feel the need to express my view of this situation:
Let's start with the first motor failure:
The motor failed due to massive oil starvation. Upon disassembly and inspection the only issues found to explain loss of oil pressure were destroyed vtc seals and covers that were rubbing on the intake sprockets. Never having seen this before in my many vq35engine builds I attribute it to the difficulties I ran into installing the intake cam sprocket covers. Power coating build up inside the dowel pin holes lead to tight installation. Covers were removed several times, cleaning the powder coating and re-fitting. On the final installation the covers fit with a small gap at the ears containing the dowel pin holes. The powder coating was getting chipped as I was removing the covers and the customer and I decided not to try to remove again since the rest of the covers looked flush. I then took a soft rubber mallet and tapped the ears down over the dowel pins to seat. I initially thought this may have caused some flex or misalignment of the covers, that may have lead them to rub on the sprockets on the top side and the seals to kick out the bottom side. I did not see any other problems in the motor to explain oil starvation. The tolerances and clearances were set similar to over 20 other vq35 engines I have built over the last several years, which are still running in good condition today. I warned customer previously about prepping and taping holes/oil passages etc when powder coating to avoid contamination and issues such as this. The parts came back from the powder coater packed full of powder coating dust and over spray inside covers. Customer was informed that parts would be cleaned best as humanely possible but there is always a chance of possible issues. Feeling partially responsible for this since I didn't advise the customer to scrap these parts and buy new ones and start over, we worked out an agreement where customer would supply the parts given purchased at our cost and Hill's Garage would supply free labor. Customer was happy with agreement and so we proceeded to the next motor build.
Motor number two:
Justice Racing Engines did an excellent job with the machine work and blue printing of the short block. The only parts reused in this build were valve covers, valve springs and timing covers. All other parts came from customer's low mileage original engine. Microscopic attention to detail was given in the assembly of this engine due to the circumstances of the first engine. Upon start up the engine sounded very good and was very quiet but would not idle below 2800 rpm due to the vipec losing it's throttle settings somehow according to FT. The car would not run off of the reflashed factory ecu alone as it was pulling too much fuel. The engine was run several times, cooling system bled but I could not run for extended amount of time or test drive car due to state of current tune. The engine oil was changed and a sample sent to Black Stone Labs for analysis. Lab results were received to show that the engine was healthy with normal break in of aluminum and iron from pistons and rings. Bearing type metals (aluminum, tin and copper) were very low. Black Stone advised there were no bearing problems showing at this time and to send another sample at 250 miles. The car was then shipped to FT for engine break in and tuning. Due to a hectic schedule at FT tuning was delayed for a short period. Customer and I meet at FT for a tuning session and was discovered car would not go in to boost, but ran fine otherwise. FT and I having just seen a set of knock off waste gates fall apart in an APS kit we automatically thought to check those first. FT jacked up the car and checked the waste gate plumbing and also checked the springs were installed. All checked out ok. As we were standing around scratching our heads as to why there was no boost. We decided to pack it up and FT would pull the waste gates at is next available time. We all went home disappointed, but at least the engine was running well and there was no signs of oil pressure issues. FT checked the waste gates with no problems found and then checked the intakes. This is when he found a chunk of rag in the right side intake filter! Upon further inspection he found the rest of the rag in the filter and scoped the rest of the intake system and cleaned residue from inner cooler pipes and reported that one of the the blades on the turbo was slightly bent. I offered customer full replacement of turbo and other damaged parts related to the rag if this was from my shop. On a "should be ok" by the turbo builder we decided to continue with tuning to keep with customer schedule. Many weeks later the customer informs us that the car is doing well and the car is making over 650 whp. EVERYONE HAPPY! Next phone call I get from customer the day he should be picking up his car from FT. Ft called to tell customer the car was on the side of the road with severe rod knock experience during some final touch ups to the tune. Found out later from customer that FT had experience some low oil pressure after repeated runs on the dyno the day before! FT had dismissed as the engine and oil getting hot and did not see this as a problem as he has seen this before. Never did I get a phone call about this potential problem or any updates on the progress of the tune what so ever form FT. Even when the engine failed I never received a call from FT. Knowing how much this engine means to me and my shop I found this very disrespectful. I paid to have the car towed back to Hill's Garage. The car arrived with ~500 miles on the odometer removed customer's engine and sent to Justice for disassembly and diagnosis of failure at my expense. Upon inspection there were NO ASSEMBLY ERRORS and NO PART FAILURES to explain the massive oil starvation that this engine ALSO experienced. There were similar markings inside the intake sprocket covers that make me want to reevaluate my diagnosis of the first engine failure, there is a possibility that the problems I found and was due to oil starvation and not the direct cause. Without data logs and accurate time line of events to help determine what operating conditions and or outside factors could have affected this engine I am not in a position to accept fault and pay for the customer's engine. If this is proven to be a mistake at Hill's Garage then we would gladly file and insurance claim and cut the customer a check, but we can't until there is evidence that there was negligence on behalf of Hill's Garage that caused this failure. We can't afford to buy the customer a new engine as were a new business struggling to survive in the poor economy, but we assure you this 'we stand behind our workmanship 100% ',and this will not close the doors for our many other happy customers. Lots of hard lessons learned here, and we really like the customer and hope that we can come to some sort of resolve. We understand that his only position at this point is to move forward with legal action. People may say what they wish, but we don't have time to frequent this forum as I am running a business, and raising a family. So please don't be disappointed if you receive no response to your post. You are welcome to your opinions as we all have them, maybe some should think before they type! If anyone feels as though they would like to discuss this situation please give us a call at Hill's Garage Inc.
Good luck to all involved in this unfortunate situation, let the chips fall as they may!
Let's start with the first motor failure:
The motor failed due to massive oil starvation. Upon disassembly and inspection the only issues found to explain loss of oil pressure were destroyed vtc seals and covers that were rubbing on the intake sprockets. Never having seen this before in my many vq35engine builds I attribute it to the difficulties I ran into installing the intake cam sprocket covers. Power coating build up inside the dowel pin holes lead to tight installation. Covers were removed several times, cleaning the powder coating and re-fitting. On the final installation the covers fit with a small gap at the ears containing the dowel pin holes. The powder coating was getting chipped as I was removing the covers and the customer and I decided not to try to remove again since the rest of the covers looked flush. I then took a soft rubber mallet and tapped the ears down over the dowel pins to seat. I initially thought this may have caused some flex or misalignment of the covers, that may have lead them to rub on the sprockets on the top side and the seals to kick out the bottom side. I did not see any other problems in the motor to explain oil starvation. The tolerances and clearances were set similar to over 20 other vq35 engines I have built over the last several years, which are still running in good condition today. I warned customer previously about prepping and taping holes/oil passages etc when powder coating to avoid contamination and issues such as this. The parts came back from the powder coater packed full of powder coating dust and over spray inside covers. Customer was informed that parts would be cleaned best as humanely possible but there is always a chance of possible issues. Feeling partially responsible for this since I didn't advise the customer to scrap these parts and buy new ones and start over, we worked out an agreement where customer would supply the parts given purchased at our cost and Hill's Garage would supply free labor. Customer was happy with agreement and so we proceeded to the next motor build.
Motor number two:
Justice Racing Engines did an excellent job with the machine work and blue printing of the short block. The only parts reused in this build were valve covers, valve springs and timing covers. All other parts came from customer's low mileage original engine. Microscopic attention to detail was given in the assembly of this engine due to the circumstances of the first engine. Upon start up the engine sounded very good and was very quiet but would not idle below 2800 rpm due to the vipec losing it's throttle settings somehow according to FT. The car would not run off of the reflashed factory ecu alone as it was pulling too much fuel. The engine was run several times, cooling system bled but I could not run for extended amount of time or test drive car due to state of current tune. The engine oil was changed and a sample sent to Black Stone Labs for analysis. Lab results were received to show that the engine was healthy with normal break in of aluminum and iron from pistons and rings. Bearing type metals (aluminum, tin and copper) were very low. Black Stone advised there were no bearing problems showing at this time and to send another sample at 250 miles. The car was then shipped to FT for engine break in and tuning. Due to a hectic schedule at FT tuning was delayed for a short period. Customer and I meet at FT for a tuning session and was discovered car would not go in to boost, but ran fine otherwise. FT and I having just seen a set of knock off waste gates fall apart in an APS kit we automatically thought to check those first. FT jacked up the car and checked the waste gate plumbing and also checked the springs were installed. All checked out ok. As we were standing around scratching our heads as to why there was no boost. We decided to pack it up and FT would pull the waste gates at is next available time. We all went home disappointed, but at least the engine was running well and there was no signs of oil pressure issues. FT checked the waste gates with no problems found and then checked the intakes. This is when he found a chunk of rag in the right side intake filter! Upon further inspection he found the rest of the rag in the filter and scoped the rest of the intake system and cleaned residue from inner cooler pipes and reported that one of the the blades on the turbo was slightly bent. I offered customer full replacement of turbo and other damaged parts related to the rag if this was from my shop. On a "should be ok" by the turbo builder we decided to continue with tuning to keep with customer schedule. Many weeks later the customer informs us that the car is doing well and the car is making over 650 whp. EVERYONE HAPPY! Next phone call I get from customer the day he should be picking up his car from FT. Ft called to tell customer the car was on the side of the road with severe rod knock experience during some final touch ups to the tune. Found out later from customer that FT had experience some low oil pressure after repeated runs on the dyno the day before! FT had dismissed as the engine and oil getting hot and did not see this as a problem as he has seen this before. Never did I get a phone call about this potential problem or any updates on the progress of the tune what so ever form FT. Even when the engine failed I never received a call from FT. Knowing how much this engine means to me and my shop I found this very disrespectful. I paid to have the car towed back to Hill's Garage. The car arrived with ~500 miles on the odometer removed customer's engine and sent to Justice for disassembly and diagnosis of failure at my expense. Upon inspection there were NO ASSEMBLY ERRORS and NO PART FAILURES to explain the massive oil starvation that this engine ALSO experienced. There were similar markings inside the intake sprocket covers that make me want to reevaluate my diagnosis of the first engine failure, there is a possibility that the problems I found and was due to oil starvation and not the direct cause. Without data logs and accurate time line of events to help determine what operating conditions and or outside factors could have affected this engine I am not in a position to accept fault and pay for the customer's engine. If this is proven to be a mistake at Hill's Garage then we would gladly file and insurance claim and cut the customer a check, but we can't until there is evidence that there was negligence on behalf of Hill's Garage that caused this failure. We can't afford to buy the customer a new engine as were a new business struggling to survive in the poor economy, but we assure you this 'we stand behind our workmanship 100% ',and this will not close the doors for our many other happy customers. Lots of hard lessons learned here, and we really like the customer and hope that we can come to some sort of resolve. We understand that his only position at this point is to move forward with legal action. People may say what they wish, but we don't have time to frequent this forum as I am running a business, and raising a family. So please don't be disappointed if you receive no response to your post. You are welcome to your opinions as we all have them, maybe some should think before they type! If anyone feels as though they would like to discuss this situation please give us a call at Hill's Garage Inc.
Good luck to all involved in this unfortunate situation, let the chips fall as they may!
finally what i have been waiting on for weeks, the engine builder's side of things....now all parties involved have spilled whats on their mind
07-13-2009, 07:06 PM
#1675
New Member
iTrader: (13)
if you wanna work with the customer how about you contact Dave when Chris tells you then...you need to get with Dave and just split 50-50 and when Cass lawyer gets done with you both you can sort each other out on the damages....but the priority should be to get Cass on the road.... Dave has an engine almost ready...maybe you can add the parts it needs to get about to where the other engine is supposed to be... i dunno... but you clearly have stopped caring about Chris are just looking after youself.... well you will be dealing with a lawyer....
that is not to say Dave could be at fault, but either way, pretty disappointed at you still, you threat the rag as a "oh it was found," and you went on a "comment" by someone not involved into the details of the built...you should have been way more carefully here.....that was horrible negligence period, no matter what the other 20-or so builds you've done...and BTW, are you indirectly deflecting blame of the rodent caca on Dave?
that is not to say Dave could be at fault, but either way, pretty disappointed at you still, you threat the rag as a "oh it was found," and you went on a "comment" by someone not involved into the details of the built...you should have been way more carefully here.....that was horrible negligence period, no matter what the other 20-or so builds you've done...and BTW, are you indirectly deflecting blame of the rodent caca on Dave?
Last edited by IIQuickSilverII; 07-13-2009 at 07:51 PM.
07-13-2009, 07:45 PM
#1676
Registered User
iTrader: (18)
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Piscataway, NJ
Posts: 2,148
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if you wanna work with the customer how about you contact Dave when Chris tells you then...you need to get with Dave and just split 50-50 and when Cass lawyer gets done with you both you can sort each other out on the damages....but the priority should be to get Cass on the road.... Dave has an engine almost ready...maybe you can add the parts it needs to get about to where the other engine is supposed to be... i dunno... but you clearly have stopped caring about Chris are just looking after youself.... well you will be dealing with a lawyer....
that is not to say Dave could be at fault, but either way, pretty disappointed at you still, you threat the rag as a "oh it was found," and you went on a "comment" by someone not involved into the details of the built...you should have been way more carefully here.....that was horrible negligence period, no matter what the other 20-or so builds you've done...and BTW, are you indirectly deflecting blame of the rodent caca on Dave?
that is not to say Dave could be at fault, but either way, pretty disappointed at you still, you threat the rag as a "oh it was found," and you went on a "comment" by someone not involved into the details of the built...you should have been way more carefully here.....that was horrible negligence period, no matter what the other 20-or so builds you've done...and BTW, are you indirectly deflecting blame of the rodent caca on Dave?
1. Amen brother
2. Hill's garage should not touch the car again, they probably should not be within a mile of it at this point either
3. Amen x2
07-13-2009, 07:49 PM
#1677
ok guys I don't get on this forum often after the recent BASHING of character I feel the need to express my view of this situation:
Let's start with the first motor failure:
The motor failed due to massive oil starvation. Upon disassembly and inspection the only issues found to explain loss of oil pressure were destroyed vtc seals and covers that were rubbing on the intake sprockets. Never having seen this before in my many vq35engine builds I attribute it to the difficulties I ran into installing the intake cam sprocket covers. Power coating build up inside the dowel pin holes lead to tight installation. Covers were removed several times, cleaning the powder coating and re-fitting. On the final installation the covers fit with a small gap at the ears containing the dowel pin holes. The powder coating was getting chipped as I was removing the covers and the customer and I decided not to try to remove again since the rest of the covers looked flush. I then took a soft rubber mallet and tapped the ears down over the dowel pins to seat. I initially thought this may have caused some flex or misalignment of the covers, that may have lead them to rub on the sprockets on the top side and the seals to kick out the bottom side. I did not see any other problems in the motor to explain oil starvation. The tolerances and clearances were set similar to over 20 other vq35 engines I have built over the last several years, which are still running in good condition today. I warned customer previously about prepping and taping holes/oil passages etc when powder coating to avoid contamination and issues such as this. The parts came back from the powder coater packed full of powder coating dust and over spray inside covers. Customer was informed that parts would be cleaned best as humanely possible but there is always a chance of possible issues. Feeling partially responsible for this since I didn't advise the customer to scrap these parts and buy new ones and start over, we worked out an agreement where customer would supply the parts given purchased at our cost and Hill's Garage would supply free labor. Customer was happy with agreement and so we proceeded to the next motor build.
Motor number two:
Justice Racing Engines did an excellent job with the machine work and blue printing of the short block. The only parts reused in this build were valve covers, valve springs and timing covers. All other parts came from customer's low mileage original engine. Microscopic attention to detail was given in the assembly of this engine due to the circumstances of the first engine. Upon start up the engine sounded very good and was very quiet but would not idle below 2800 rpm due to the vipec losing it's throttle settings somehow according to FT. The car would not run off of the reflashed factory ecu alone as it was pulling too much fuel. The engine was run several times, cooling system bled but I could not run for extended amount of time or test drive car due to state of current tune. The engine oil was changed and a sample sent to Black Stone Labs for analysis. Lab results were received to show that the engine was healthy with normal break in of aluminum and iron from pistons and rings. Bearing type metals (aluminum, tin and copper) were very low. Black Stone advised there were no bearing problems showing at this time and to send another sample at 250 miles. The car was then shipped to FT for engine break in and tuning. Due to a hectic schedule at FT tuning was delayed for a short period. Customer and I meet at FT for a tuning session and was discovered car would not go in to boost, but ran fine otherwise. FT and I having just seen a set of knock off waste gates fall apart in an APS kit we automatically thought to check those first. FT jacked up the car and checked the waste gate plumbing and also checked the springs were installed. All checked out ok. As we were standing around scratching our heads as to why there was no boost. We decided to pack it up and FT would pull the waste gates at is next available time. We all went home disappointed, but at least the engine was running well and there was no signs of oil pressure issues. FT checked the waste gates with no problems found and then checked the intakes. This is when he found a chunk of rag in the right side intake filter! Upon further inspection he found the rest of the rag in the filter and scoped the rest of the intake system and cleaned residue from inner cooler pipes and reported that one of the the blades on the turbo was slightly bent. I offered customer full replacement of turbo and other damaged parts related to the rag if this was from my shop. On a "should be ok" by the turbo builder we decided to continue with tuning to keep with customer schedule. Many weeks later the customer informs us that the car is doing well and the car is making over 650 whp. EVERYONE HAPPY! Next phone call I get from customer the day he should be picking up his car from FT. Ft called to tell customer the car was on the side of the road with severe rod knock experience during some final touch ups to the tune. Found out later from customer that FT had experience some low oil pressure after repeated runs on the dyno the day before! FT had dismissed as the engine and oil getting hot and did not see this as a problem as he has seen this before. Never did I get a phone call about this potential problem or any updates on the progress of the tune what so ever form FT. Even when the engine failed I never received a call from FT. Knowing how much this engine means to me and my shop I found this very disrespectful. I paid to have the car towed back to Hill's Garage. The car arrived with ~500 miles on the odometer removed customer's engine and sent to Justice for disassembly and diagnosis of failure at my expense. Upon inspection there were NO ASSEMBLY ERRORS and NO PART FAILURES to explain the massive oil starvation that this engine ALSO experienced. There were similar markings inside the intake sprocket covers that make me want to reevaluate my diagnosis of the first engine failure, there is a possibility that the problems I found and was due to oil starvation and not the direct cause. Without data logs and accurate time line of events to help determine what operating conditions and or outside factors could have affected this engine I am not in a position to accept fault and pay for the customer's engine. If this is proven to be a mistake at Hill's Garage then we would gladly file and insurance claim and cut the customer a check, but we can't until there is evidence that there was negligence on behalf of Hill's Garage that caused this failure. We can't afford to buy the customer a new engine as were a new business struggling to survive in the poor economy, but we assure you this 'we stand behind our workmanship 100% ',and this will not close the doors for our many other happy customers. Lots of hard lessons learned here, and we really like the customer and hope that we can come to some sort of resolve. We understand that his only position at this point is to move forward with legal action. People may say what they wish, but we don't have time to frequent this forum as I am running a business, and raising a family. So please don't be disappointed if you receive no response to your post. You are welcome to your opinions as we all have them, maybe some should think before they type! If anyone feels as though they would like to discuss this situation please give us a call at Hill's Garage Inc.
Good luck to all involved in this unfortunate situation, let the chips fall as they may!
Let's start with the first motor failure:
The motor failed due to massive oil starvation. Upon disassembly and inspection the only issues found to explain loss of oil pressure were destroyed vtc seals and covers that were rubbing on the intake sprockets. Never having seen this before in my many vq35engine builds I attribute it to the difficulties I ran into installing the intake cam sprocket covers. Power coating build up inside the dowel pin holes lead to tight installation. Covers were removed several times, cleaning the powder coating and re-fitting. On the final installation the covers fit with a small gap at the ears containing the dowel pin holes. The powder coating was getting chipped as I was removing the covers and the customer and I decided not to try to remove again since the rest of the covers looked flush. I then took a soft rubber mallet and tapped the ears down over the dowel pins to seat. I initially thought this may have caused some flex or misalignment of the covers, that may have lead them to rub on the sprockets on the top side and the seals to kick out the bottom side. I did not see any other problems in the motor to explain oil starvation. The tolerances and clearances were set similar to over 20 other vq35 engines I have built over the last several years, which are still running in good condition today. I warned customer previously about prepping and taping holes/oil passages etc when powder coating to avoid contamination and issues such as this. The parts came back from the powder coater packed full of powder coating dust and over spray inside covers. Customer was informed that parts would be cleaned best as humanely possible but there is always a chance of possible issues. Feeling partially responsible for this since I didn't advise the customer to scrap these parts and buy new ones and start over, we worked out an agreement where customer would supply the parts given purchased at our cost and Hill's Garage would supply free labor. Customer was happy with agreement and so we proceeded to the next motor build.
Motor number two:
Justice Racing Engines did an excellent job with the machine work and blue printing of the short block. The only parts reused in this build were valve covers, valve springs and timing covers. All other parts came from customer's low mileage original engine. Microscopic attention to detail was given in the assembly of this engine due to the circumstances of the first engine. Upon start up the engine sounded very good and was very quiet but would not idle below 2800 rpm due to the vipec losing it's throttle settings somehow according to FT. The car would not run off of the reflashed factory ecu alone as it was pulling too much fuel. The engine was run several times, cooling system bled but I could not run for extended amount of time or test drive car due to state of current tune. The engine oil was changed and a sample sent to Black Stone Labs for analysis. Lab results were received to show that the engine was healthy with normal break in of aluminum and iron from pistons and rings. Bearing type metals (aluminum, tin and copper) were very low. Black Stone advised there were no bearing problems showing at this time and to send another sample at 250 miles. The car was then shipped to FT for engine break in and tuning. Due to a hectic schedule at FT tuning was delayed for a short period. Customer and I meet at FT for a tuning session and was discovered car would not go in to boost, but ran fine otherwise. FT and I having just seen a set of knock off waste gates fall apart in an APS kit we automatically thought to check those first. FT jacked up the car and checked the waste gate plumbing and also checked the springs were installed. All checked out ok. As we were standing around scratching our heads as to why there was no boost. We decided to pack it up and FT would pull the waste gates at is next available time. We all went home disappointed, but at least the engine was running well and there was no signs of oil pressure issues. FT checked the waste gates with no problems found and then checked the intakes. This is when he found a chunk of rag in the right side intake filter! Upon further inspection he found the rest of the rag in the filter and scoped the rest of the intake system and cleaned residue from inner cooler pipes and reported that one of the the blades on the turbo was slightly bent. I offered customer full replacement of turbo and other damaged parts related to the rag if this was from my shop. On a "should be ok" by the turbo builder we decided to continue with tuning to keep with customer schedule. Many weeks later the customer informs us that the car is doing well and the car is making over 650 whp. EVERYONE HAPPY! Next phone call I get from customer the day he should be picking up his car from FT. Ft called to tell customer the car was on the side of the road with severe rod knock experience during some final touch ups to the tune. Found out later from customer that FT had experience some low oil pressure after repeated runs on the dyno the day before! FT had dismissed as the engine and oil getting hot and did not see this as a problem as he has seen this before. Never did I get a phone call about this potential problem or any updates on the progress of the tune what so ever form FT. Even when the engine failed I never received a call from FT. Knowing how much this engine means to me and my shop I found this very disrespectful. I paid to have the car towed back to Hill's Garage. The car arrived with ~500 miles on the odometer removed customer's engine and sent to Justice for disassembly and diagnosis of failure at my expense. Upon inspection there were NO ASSEMBLY ERRORS and NO PART FAILURES to explain the massive oil starvation that this engine ALSO experienced. There were similar markings inside the intake sprocket covers that make me want to reevaluate my diagnosis of the first engine failure, there is a possibility that the problems I found and was due to oil starvation and not the direct cause. Without data logs and accurate time line of events to help determine what operating conditions and or outside factors could have affected this engine I am not in a position to accept fault and pay for the customer's engine. If this is proven to be a mistake at Hill's Garage then we would gladly file and insurance claim and cut the customer a check, but we can't until there is evidence that there was negligence on behalf of Hill's Garage that caused this failure. We can't afford to buy the customer a new engine as were a new business struggling to survive in the poor economy, but we assure you this 'we stand behind our workmanship 100% ',and this will not close the doors for our many other happy customers. Lots of hard lessons learned here, and we really like the customer and hope that we can come to some sort of resolve. We understand that his only position at this point is to move forward with legal action. People may say what they wish, but we don't have time to frequent this forum as I am running a business, and raising a family. So please don't be disappointed if you receive no response to your post. You are welcome to your opinions as we all have them, maybe some should think before they type! If anyone feels as though they would like to discuss this situation please give us a call at Hill's Garage Inc.
Good luck to all involved in this unfortunate situation, let the chips fall as they may!
You are not the victim here.FYI... Several guys on this forum, including Chris, run their own business while raising a family. Yet they still find time to post. So spare us the BS excuses.
Last edited by RudeG_v2.0; 07-13-2009 at 11:49 PM.
07-13-2009, 07:59 PM
#1678
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Justice Racing Engines did an excellent job with the machine work and blue printing of the short block.
Upon inspection there were NO ASSEMBLY ERRORS and NO PART FAILURES to explain the massive oil starvation that this engine ALSO experienced.
We can't afford to buy the customer a new engine as were a new business struggling to survive in the poor economy, but we assure you this 'we stand behind our workmanship 100%
'
let the chips fall as they may!
you used the magic words...please post the blueprint for this motor
addressing the part failures.....i think the bearings might be classified as failures.......and what about the pump? was it bench tested,what are the results?
addressing your "can't afford" crap.....if you can't afford warranty on a failed motor you never were in business and to follow "you cant afford" with standing behind workmanship 100% is an oxymoron you moron.
addressing your chips.....pretty soon cass is going to own your chips
EDIT:being a little nicer,you do know batch's of bad bearings do get out right?if you are not prepared to eat a motor when murphy's law strikes you should stop offering high end services until you can.
Last edited by go-fast; 07-13-2009 at 08:15 PM.
07-13-2009, 08:13 PM
#1679
Mr. Frank Hill, to summarize your post, you have basically stated that you cannot back up your work because you don't have the resources to do so (can't afford the insurance claim and cannot afford it out of pocket). You do realize that it's either you or Dave at fault, so you're pointing the finger at Dave plain and simple even though the single most damning piece of physical evidence was the presence of the rag found in the intake. There's no pawning that off. Dave's not off the hook either as it looks like he was pushing the ViPEC when it wasn't quite ready for prime time and may have not recognized some warning signs early on. That should STILL be something the two of you work out. You should NOT leave the customer stranded in the middle... Hopefully you will reconsider your position and work towards a reasonable resolution with Dave for the sake of the customer.
EDIT: I see go-fast beat me to the post, but shares similar views, as I'm sure most will that read your post. Perhaps you'd like to clarify or refine your post, Mr. Hill?
EDIT: I see go-fast beat me to the post, but shares similar views, as I'm sure most will that read your post. Perhaps you'd like to clarify or refine your post, Mr. Hill?
Last edited by rcdash; 07-13-2009 at 08:15 PM.
07-13-2009, 11:58 PM
#1680
you used the magic words...please post the blueprint for this motor
addressing the part failures.....i think the bearings might be classified as failures.......and what about the pump? was it bench tested,what are the results?
addressing your "can't afford" crap.....if you can't afford warranty on a failed motor you never were in business and to follow "you cant afford" with standing behind workmanship 100% is an oxymoron you moron.
addressing your chips.....pretty soon cass is going to own your chips
EDIT:being a little nicer,you do know batch's of bad bearings do get out right?if you are not prepared to eat a motor when murphy's law strikes you should stop offering high end services until you can.
addressing the part failures.....i think the bearings might be classified as failures.......and what about the pump? was it bench tested,what are the results?
addressing your "can't afford" crap.....if you can't afford warranty on a failed motor you never were in business and to follow "you cant afford" with standing behind workmanship 100% is an oxymoron you moron.
addressing your chips.....pretty soon cass is going to own your chips
EDIT:being a little nicer,you do know batch's of bad bearings do get out right?if you are not prepared to eat a motor when murphy's law strikes you should stop offering high end services until you can.
Mr. Frank Hill, to summarize your post, you have basically stated that you cannot back up your work because you don't have the resources to do so (can't afford the insurance claim and cannot afford it out of pocket). You do realize that it's either you or Dave at fault, so you're pointing the finger at Dave plain and simple even though the single most damning piece of physical evidence was the presence of the rag found in the intake. There's no pawning that off. Dave's not off the hook either as it looks like he was pushing the ViPEC when it wasn't quite ready for prime time and may have not recognized some warning signs early on. That should STILL be something the two of you work out. You should NOT leave the customer stranded in the middle... Hopefully you will reconsider your position and work towards a reasonable resolution with Dave for the sake of the customer.
EDIT: I see go-fast beat me to the post, but shares similar views, as I'm sure most will that read your post. Perhaps you'd like to clarify or refine your post, Mr. Hill?
EDIT: I see go-fast beat me to the post, but shares similar views, as I'm sure most will that read your post. Perhaps you'd like to clarify or refine your post, Mr. Hill?
to bothIf Frank cannot afford to stand behind his work and eat the cost of a blown motor that the customer never had a chance to drive, then he should not be in business!!! He is flaking out and leaving Chris out to dry. Period.
Frank needs to realize that a lawsuit will cost him a lot more (in terms of money and reputation) than swallowing his pride and making a claim on his insurance to take care of Chris.