"The kit has produced the power claimed by the manufacturer on multiple cars"

Not one single post on this thread shows proof of this with the gt35r kit.

"It's ridiculous to see people indulging such ignorance... as if it's realistic or reasonable/prudent to expect 500-550whp on a DD dyno (which equates to 550-600+whp on a DJ dyno) while using only pump gas with a turbo that maxes out at ~650whp on a DJ dyno with C16 fuel."

Guys, please get your stories straight. LOL

Who would buy a kit that requires running race gas all the time to hit conservative numbers that it's competitors can do all day on 93? It is just stupidity to continue using the race gas argument at this point in the discussion. If you can not add something productive to this thread then just stay off of it." Yes, I was able to achieve the 500 whp mark and I have openly admitted to it but it was on a dynojet that tend to be very liberal in it's numbers. My stock 2006 g35 hit ~260 whp on the same dyno. My point is that this kit is sold to compete with the twin turbo kits on the market and this comment comes straight from the horse's mouth but unlike it's competitors it can not make to same power levels that have been produded on IP's dyno.

 

I think some people assume that because a particular turbo makes a certain hp on one motor, that means that it will on another. This is not always the case, especially when the motors are different sizes. To clarify this point, I'll provide examples for a 2.0L motor and a 3.5L motor, both shooting for 500 whp. To keep the examples simple, I'll assume a total energy conversion efficiency of 30% for each motor, and keep the rest of the parameters the same. (Of course, these vary from build to build depending on a variety of factors, but I'm keeping it simple).

2.0L Motor Turbo Requirement
Air flow rate - 59 lb/min
Pressure Ratio - 3.06

3.5L Motor Turbo Requirement
Air flow rate - 59 lb/min
Pressure Ratio - 1.75

Now, look at the GT3582R compressor map. The turbo can easily push 59 lb/min of air flow at a 3.06 pressure ratio with fairly decent efficiency, but at a 1.75 pressure ratio it is beyond the choke line.





In short, just because a GT3582R turbo can easily make 500 or 600 whp on a small 4 cylinder motor does not mean it will on a larger 6 cylinder motor. These turbos really hit their stride around 22 psi. That is when they start approaching their maximum air flow performance.

EDIT: Also, when you have twin turbos on a VQ35, each turbo is working with half the displacement (1.75L). This is the type of displacement that the GT3582R really is optimized for. For 3.5L (i.e., a single turbo setup), the compressor trim really should be higher.

 

My friend made 499-520whp on two different DDs and you're not that far off from him

I'm not FI but honestly when I saw the 650whp sheet from the GT35R kit I just assumed it wasn't on pump. Same goes to when I see a Greddy TT 18G kit put up similar numbers, I assume it's not on pump. That's only because I have a good friend with the Greddy kit with a built motor

Good luck with everything dude.

 

Good point. If you could have your friend post his/her dyno. Thanks

 

His dynos were never posted on here by Sharif but I may be able to get it from my friends that own the DD here. Let me double check with them to see if they have it saved on their home PC.

edit-neither are on AIM yet.

 

I'm going to take an educated guess here and assume that it was not a 3.5L motor, but probably something smaller, like around 2.0L or so. This would make sense. Am I correct?

 

So you think it's reasonable to expect ~600whp DJ on a single GT35R turbo with an E compressor housing that has been shown to max out at ~650whp DJ "all in" on C16 race gas? Do you realize that you're asking the turbo in this application to perform near and beyond 90% of it's max power on your motor with strictly pump gas???

Please show me links to competitors' production turbo kits that have the same ~650whp DJ max power capability that make ~600whp DJ (~550whp DD) "all day on 93" without the use of water/meth injection.

 

Oh no, I was referring to the dyno sheet from Intense's site

 

Terry,

In case you didn't already know... the PowerLab GT35R kit achieved 653whp when it was maxed out/tested "all in" on C16 race gas on Intense's DJ dyno. This happened before the kit was released for production and it was never a secret that the dyno was done with C16 fuel.

 

My point is that it appears that C16 is being used as a band aid. The turbo is operating somewhere around its choke line, and maybe beyond the choke line depending on the particular build. When you do this, the compressor efficiency is fairly low, so the intake air temperature will be pretty high. On pump gas detonation will occur prematurely. The C16 obviously helps to compensate for this.

Nonetheless, when you operate beyond the choke line, you are pushing the turbo harder than it was designed to be pushed. If the owner frequently operates beyond the choke line, the turbo will not last as long as it should. Garrett states on its website in no uncertain terms that you should not operate beyond the choke line. If you are beyond the choke line, a larger compressor should be used. I think a larger compressor trim value also should help, but I don't know whether Garrett offers this as an available option on the GT3582R turbo. I looked but did not see it on the website.

 

/\/\/\

Terry I think you are absolutely correct in people's thinking.....everyone thinks that bigger is better, but that is not always the case (well not if its the wrong trim anyway).

Like you said, for us twin folks, there is 1.75L of displacement....there are a lot more options for high pressure ratio turbos, than there are for low pressure ratio turbos (with any sort of efficiency anyway for a street application) when you get to the "small motors"

Tom

 

Well... I asked the guys back in the day why they chose the GT35R. They said the GT35R was chosen because, unlike the Supra community, the overwhelming majority of the VQ community favors very quick spool over peak power. The VQ community likes "instaspool" and has tended to use turbos that are relatively small compared to what is being used on other platforms (a single 35R is more commonly used on 2 liter 4 cylinder applications). They felt the 35R offered the best compromise of quick spool with decent peak power potential to suite the prevailing tastes of the VQ FI market. It's a business decision by PowerLab that's supported by the fact that there hasn't been any strong or overwhelming demand for PowerLab to offer a production version of the kit with the 76S turbo... even though this size of turbo has been commonly used on Supras (with a half liter less displacement than the VQ) for several years.

After all the testing with PowerLab and ProEFI was completed on the Intense widebody G, the owner chose to keep the GT37R turbo on there and was running ~530whp @ approximately 13PSI on the street on 91 octane pump gas as his low boost street tune. He was often seen driving the car around the east valley until he put it up for sale.

 

What would be an realistic power level for an gt37r turbo with this kit on 93 oct? Is it a direct bolt on? What are the exact specs(AR, Turbine, type of housing, etc, etc) of the gt37r turbo that has been used by Intense. Can an air filter be used? Finally, the GT35r has some sort of spout fitting on the intake side of the compression housing; does the GT37r need this fitting or does the pipe from the FMIC go straight into it?

 

Nice work Terry on the analysis of the GT35R.

James, the squirrel performance turbo sizing calculator is a nifty tool that can plot your engine's air requirement and how well it matches a particular turbo...

http://www.squirrelpf.com/turbocalc/

This is a plot through redline with a BSFC of .47, max IC loss of 1 psi, vol eff of around 90%, and intake temps around 100 deg F peak at redline, the hp entered was 575, which is my estimate of crank given a 15% drivetrain loss to reach 500 at the wheels:



You can see near redline, the turbo approaches the choke point and it requires 2.5 bar (22 psi) to reach the airflow for 575 crank horsepower (500 wheel). Given what this model suggests, I'd be pretty happy with the results you've obtained. It speaks to the efficiency of the rest of the kit. Not saying that expectations/marketing was appropriate, just that you seem to be at or above expected power levels.

You may want to confirm and play around with the settings at that site with known configurations from the shop build thread and then apply to your own set up...

 

^^^

Hi Raj,

There are a number of parameters on that web site to play with, as you noted. I think some of these need to be tweaked a bit more. 22 psi is awfully high for 500 whp. In my first build, I hit in the mid 550s at 14.5 psi on a Mustang dyno (weather corrected to 584 whp).

Also, the last point looks to be beyond the choke line. Is that the 575 hp (500 rwhp) point?

 

just from an outside point of view.....you feel advertising was deceptive



1. a kits max hp level is just that,no company i know of gives mid #'s for advertising.(personally i would have left something on the table just for situations like this)

2. you mention 500 whp as if it's weak and will not satisfy your needs.....i don't get that at all.your power exceeds the limits of street tires and to be developed by a v6 with a single gt35 shows me this is a quality kit.

3.you have achieved the whp #s you wanted (depending on dyno) so i really don't understand your gripe.

i agree your iat's are too high to grow past your current point and i think you need to focus on this simple fact.fix your iat and more power/longevity will follow.race gas is not the only way around barriers and your "turbo kit" is only a small part of the puzzle.

gl

 

Do you know if on that site the "hp" parameter is wheel or crank? I cannot recall which worked best for my set up (they don't have a map for my 700bb (though I asked for it to be added and supplied them with the chart published by JWT). Even if you put 500 whp, at 7k rpms, the turbo approaches the choke pt, but it's better...

With meth injection I think james will find safer AITs and a little more room to push the turbo. As go-fast mentioned, he's approaching the sweet spot for a street setup, so he may be happy with the little bit more that meth can provide. I don't know that a gt37r is going to be any better for him...

 

I think the Squirrel website uses crank hp.

The GT37R will help. I quickly looked at it in the other thread last week related to this same subject.

Ideally, he could get new compressor blades with a more aggressive trim. I think that would help quite a bit by shifting the choke line downward on the pressure ratio axis. For example, the GT3582R flows about 65 lb/min at the choke lline at 2.5 pressure ratio (about 22 psi of boost). If he can get that flow at 1.9 pressure ratio (about 13 psi of boost) at the choke line, I think he would be totally fine. His AIT would drop quite a bit.

Unfortunately, I don't know anybody who sells compressor blades with the appropriate trim that he can stick in his compressor.

Because AIT really is the issue, water or meth/water injection would be very advantageous on this build. I don't remember what size intercooler the OP has, but if a larger intercooler is available, this also will help. Still, there is the issue that he may be at, or perhaps past, the limit at which the compressor is designed to spin.

 

I see you have a TT kit...not sure how you can compare your situation to those with the PL kit when your kit cost about the same and you can hit over 500 on pump on a DD.

Also, it is REDICULOUS to say 87 to 93 is the same leap as 93 to Q16 pricewise. I'm not paying $300 to get the performance I should be getting out of $60 every 300 miles. 10 tanks of gas and you might as well have upgraded to the TT.

Maybe I missed the taglines before...but did the website with the information about the PL kit just add on a lot of conditions to the power output of the kit?

Don't get me wrong, I'd rather this kit over a TN kit any day of the week, and it looks like it will put out more power than the TN could anyways, but it you really want big power, it looks like you are back to a TT kit. Does james risk buying the 37 and going for meth or spending the money selling the kit and installing the TT for the power he wants on regular pump? If you can easily change the turbo, maybe it is worth the shot.

 

This is still going?



The only thing "stupid" is your title of thread and tangential insinuations of deceptions by you d00d(either that or someone was blowing smoke up your butt to come out with such "nuclear"statements)... people have only tried to help you out here.
And No you did not just hit 500whp on a "loose Dynojet" (lol )..... injecteds dyno showed on conservative estimates 500whp too... or 456 on true DD numbers.
The power has been achieved on other cars... not sure what your point is....intense claimed a max of 650whp and 700whp on a different turbo on race gas......That Proof is showing that the piping flows and the turbo does the same on other builds are similar numbers achieved already with the kit an gt37r on other posts......there is no deception.
While a single turbo might be more efficient than 2... VE works/behaves differently and you should have different PSi ... a:f considerations than when running 2 turbos. Meth will be very beneficial to you, and i will suggest one more time.. run it with out the exahust.... also... DO a race gas run and then also compare that.

werd!, interesting thing is much of the community didnt even have an issue with other kits being advertize to over 1000hp with no dyno sheet at the time even lol...yet somehow others are trying to spin this to some surprised deception ...after dozens of kits sold and over 2 years that the statement has been posted on their website.

good points all around......


and FYI for n00b the squirrel calculator is only a guide that can get you very close educated numbers


This is incorrect.... that is all about sizing up the turbo and the goals one has....displacement...rpm limits ....
Sadly there are plenty of apples to oranges comparison...is like saying..."ZOMG you need 20psi on a Single turbo to reach the power vs only 14 psi on twins"....yeah... that would be a clueless and uneducated, statement.
I guess similar to talk about "lag"...A tubo on any car will make more power everywhere anyway, all you do is gain everywhere. If you are trying to make a decision, you need to first pick what your power goal is...that ultimately determing what "lag" you will have. A properly selected single turbo will outspool a twin, as there is less loss......the twin will normally make a bit more peak horsepower with less backpressure. Again this depends upon the selection of the turbo