350Zzzz

People get so defensive, confrontational, then the nose gets bend out of shape and all hell breaks loose. Why can’t we try and get along, get issues constructively resolved, obviously it could never be 100% but the point is, not be at one another’s throats the second disagreement is in the air, or our because cars are different, imports, or because we are just different

A suggestion, why don’t we come to an agreement that the second someone wants to blow off steam, you take it to the “Primal” room; for starters it could be the “off topic thread.”

I just don’t want to see interesting threads, even ones that I don’t agree with, or someone selling “snake oil” go to the dogs (for lack of a better word; love dogs really ).

We may not agree with one another, or we have the need to be right due to our competitive nature…blah….blah; ………what the heck….you guys know what I am trying to say.

In any event, picking my car up today, not completed, however, as we’re working on a custom ECU firmware flash with updated parameters.

Season’s greetings and cheers to all

G

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[size=2.5]Coming together is a beginning, staying together is progress, and working together is success.[/size][size=1.75]~ Henry Ford ~[/size]

John at J&S

Black LS1 T/A:

That was me, about two years ago.

Didn't sell any to you guys, but one of the Maxima guys spied it, and a few of them have been using it. Thanks to MardiGrasMax, that's how we got here.

GaryK

EJ, I'm sorry if you think I was directing that at you specifically. I know you've asked for help. The point is, it seems like some folks here are basically saying "go away LS1 guys, we don't want your help here". That just doesn't seem like the right attitude to have, but that is IMHO....sorry.

Regarding your car in particular, and any that are having det with proper a/f ratios, you need to add some form of timing control. This is a fact. I know you are pissed at ATI, and I think I can understand some of that. But, you can either take care of the problem yourself or wait and hope ATI supplies you something to address the problem. Either way, I wish you good luck...

12SecZ

Black LS1 T/A,

Search MaxHax on ls1.com too, I was also a paid Member of both TACA Golden State Chapter:
http://www.transamclub.com/join_info.html
and Nor Cal LS1/LT1. I owned two 12 second LS1's a 12 sec 01 FireHawk and a 2002 Z28. I raced weekly.

What you are seeing here is Forum Frustration. Surely you have seen it before? I have been on froums since 1995 and I know I have.

We do not have LS1 Edit or AutoTap or Hypertech etc. It's more complicated because of the CAN technology in our ECU's.

Let me give you some background ok, maybe you will understand.
I was sold the ATI as a complete kit and was told I only needed an EGT and I bought a top of the line one, GReddy. I went to an TI authorized installer / Tuner and did everything I was told to do! I left my car with them for 4 weeks!

My entire engine went out (blew rings) because of bad tuning. It just so happens it was a LS1 FBOD shop. I had not even had time to try the boost much it was about 70 miles after leaving the shop with my car! Now how is that my fault?

Live and learn. I had already been running a MAJOR campaing with Hypertech with about 100 signatures and even an inside employee connection to try and get some ECU help and we were denied. Trust me this is a good forum and we were researching and trying all options and ideas! We knew we needed stuff *after* the first engine went, not before! We couldn't get it!

At the time the kit was released there WERE NOT ANY ECU options available to do what I have now done on my new engine. Which is flashed the ECU to retard the timing and properly pulse 380cc Injectors I bought (stock is 290.) When I bought my kit this info and programming wasn't out and neither was the J&S fix. So this is my new setup. I removed the Aeromotive FMU because I think it is worthless and isn't precise enough for tuning. I instead, routed the triple T'd off fuel lines from the ATI provided booster pump with FMU and power and ground straight to the stock line with a larger after market SARD fuel pump. It flows 280L, stock flows 210L.

So now I have a boost guage, an EGT, timing retard, custom fuel maps to 11.5 via an ECU reflash, larger injectors and a larger fuel pump. My air intake is bigger (next week) and my exhaust is wide open. I have Borla headers into Random Tech Cat Pipes then a Borla True Dual. Most of it it bought at Summit Racing. Yes some things I never left behind from my Domestic days. More air and fuel in more hot exhaust gas out. Basic stuff. But the timing IS NOT basic stuff it is off on the stock kit on stock cars at TDS. Now this no longer applies to me but it does to hundereds of people reading this thinking of FI. Will ATI fix the timing issue or pull the complete kit? My opinion, after all of this crap they should do one or the other!

Now I run 9 lbs. instead of the stock 7. When you bought your SCer did you have all of these things to protect your car? Because we didn't we had to wait, watch and learn. Most of what you are telling us we learned the hard way so thus the frustration.

I am all for learning more, so that is what we all know at this point. The stock kit at 5k was sold to us as complete, about 70% of users think it is not complete, in fact some have parked there cars and think it is incorreclty designed. They have not done all of these upgrades I have done but they didn't lose an engine either, I did. So have 7 others (8 total) and ATI says in writing they only sold 100 kits. 8 out of 100 and counting.

ere is the background, pick it up from there hopefully
with a little understanding why some(not all) of us are a little edgy. We feel that prior to the kit being released the devices needed to fix it so to speak or make it safer (timing retard, pulse larger injectors) should have also been available. Otherwise it is like selling you a Fireman Chemistry Kit knowing no fire extenguishers are available in case the kit causes a fire Understand ?

So based on all of that long winded drama post away!

elektrik_juggernaut

sorry Gary....my mistake.....thanks for clarifying though

John at J&S

GaryK:

Did you take any pics of your install? I'm going to do an install on a local car tomorrow.

How much of the dash do you have to take off
How does it come off (tips and tricks)
Where did you mount the unit
Did you have to extend the ECU/coil wires to the adapter module

Thanks

GaryK

John, I'll pm or email you...

Black LS1 T/A

12SecZ, it certainly doesn't sound like your fault if your engine blew after taking it to someone who should have been able to tune it. Did you take it to the tuner and ask them what the problem was? No, wait... they probably said the Procharger, right?

In my mind, MOST stock, non-modded vehicles should not blow up with the base kit provided. Eight out of one-hundred certainly would be high in my book. The question remains, were those eight stock and not over-revved. A simple thing like removing the MAF (Mass Air Flow meter) screen and/or porting it on our vehicles can cause an undesireable lean condition. Changing an intake or adding headers changes things. With everyone clamoring for SOME FI solution post haste, a manufacturer just can't test all these conditions unless they spend more than they will make back and take possibly years, IMO.

If people are going to mod their cars, THEY must take responsibility to tune their combination for durability and performance... or the tuner that they pay.

The work you guys did to implore Hypertech to come out with a product acutally demonstrates how we all chomp at the bit for a solution to come out.

Are you saying that there is now a way for you guys to customize your timing... to retard it in the problem areas you get detonation?

For a long time I purchased TORCO Race Fuel Additive to keep my octane up when I raced while I had my stock engine. About $12.00 / can is cheaper than most octane boosters that hardly raise the octane. One 32 oz can will take 10 gallons of 93 pump gas to 104. I rarely needed any more than about 97 to 100. One can will treate 20 gals to 97 octane.

http://www.torcoracefuels.com

It REALLY works.

12SecZ

Yes there are 3 possible solutions tha I know of..
1.Technosquare reflashed stock ECU
2. J&S Box
3. MSD Timing box???

As for the larger fuel pump and injectors I think I am the only one to have done that yet but it may not be needed for 7 lbs, I run 9.

Yeah as for the MAF on my T/A I ran stock, then Granatelli (lost a tenth) and then descreened stock and finnally settled on Thunder Racing Ported MAF ends.

On our cars we can't play like that, we have a straight through MAF with no screen with a sensor on it, PERIOD. No other MAF's than stock and the screen is already gone.

L8t!

12SecZ

P.S. thanks for the octane boost link. I need something good that works!

D'oh

E-J, it sounds like you are hoping ATI will admint that they knowingly sold a kit that was missing critical parts. You must realize that they will never admit such a thing. They will always have the fact that they did not experience problems with their test vehicles to fall back on.

I think your best bet is to use either the Techno-square solution or the J&S solution to fix your problem, and then try to work something out with ATI privately to reimburse you for part of the expense (or just chalk the whole situation up as a learning experience).

If this is exactly what you are doing, then great, but don't bring down these guys who are trying to share knowledge with the rest of us. Let their deeds here speak, instead of dredging up old posts and trying to start arguments.

Thanks,
D'oh!

daking350

HEEEEEERRRE WE GO AGAIN...

elektrik_juggernaut

okay.......enjoy

350Zzzz

Now, that is what I consider a constructive suggestion D'oh, and EJ remember to put on a big smile when you're talking to ATI. Definitely much better than griping, and hey they might even grant you your wish, even just to shut you up

Anyone wanna buy my block, as I am getting a new short block and building it up? In the mean time, I shall be using the J & S to adjust the timing; 86 the FMU

Season's greetings

G

fluidz

well this thread seems to have turned out good.......

jcv

Black LS1 T/A, like I said before you do bring interesting perspective and info to the forum, keep posting. No slam intended. Details on the Nissan ECU and how it interacts are still few and hard to come by so far, as everyone has pointed out.

Since we're talkin trash, you do know breathed on GNs rule the roost don't you, seen one or two callin ya'll out on your forum.

Merry Xmas

350G

iTrader: (4)

A few points to add:

1) An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure . . . I'm working on installing an Autronics stand alone before my ATI, using safe parameters. If I want more, I'll build up the engine.
2) Black LS1 . . . thanks. You provided a bit of insight to the situation.
3) LORD SHOOT ME . . . I just read this whole thread!

daking350

Your gonna run into a TON of problems if you go stand alone and remove the ECU...

System Description AKS000ZF
CAN (Controller Area Network) is a serial communication line for real time application. It is an on-vehicle multiplex
communication line with high data communication speed and excellent error detection ability. Many electronic
control units are equipped onto a vehicle, and each control unit shares information and links with other
control units during operation (not independent). In CAN communication, control units are connected with 2
communication lines (CAN H line, CAN L line) allowing a high rate of information transmission with less wiring.
Each control unit transmits/receives data but selectively reads required data only.


A little info on the ECU..

Open Loop Control
The open loop system condition refers to when the ECM detects any of the following conditions. Feedback
control stops in order to maintain stabilized fuel combustion.

Deceleration and acceleration

High-load, high-speed operation

Malfunction of heated oxygen sensor 1 or its circuit

Insufficient activation of heated oxygen sensor 1 at low engine coolant temperature

High engine coolant temperature

During warm-up

After shifting from “N” to “D” (A/T models)

When starting the engine
MIXTURE RATIO SELF-LEARNING CONTROL
The mixture ratio feedback control system monitors the mixture ratio signal transmitted from heated oxygen
sensor 1. This feedback signal is then sent to the ECM. The ECM controls the basic mixture ratio as close to
the theoretical mixture ratio as possible. However, the basic mixture ratio is not necessarily controlled as originally
designed. Both manufacturing differences (i.e., mass air flow sensor hot film) and characteristic changes
during operation (i.e., injector clogging) directly affect mixture ratio.
Accordingly, the difference between the basic and theoretical mixture ratios is monitored in this system. This is
then computed in terms of “injection pulse duration” to automatically compensate for the difference between
the two ratios.
“Fuel trim” refers to the feedback compensation value compared against the basic injection duration. Fuel trim
includes short term fuel trim and long term fuel trim.
“Short term fuel trim” is the short-term fuel compensation used to maintain the mixture ratio at its theoretical
value. The signal from heated oxygen sensor 1 indicates whether the mixture ratio is RICH or LEAN compared
to the theoretical value. The signal then triggers a reduction in fuel volume if the mixture ratio is rich, and an
increase in fuel volume if it is lean.
“Long term fuel trim” is overall fuel compensation carried out long-term to compensate for continual deviation
of the short term fuel trim from the central value. Such deviation will occur due to individual engine differences,
wear over time and changes in the usage environment.

Black LS1 T/A

Thanks, man.

On the GN's; ya know, sometimes an old Samurai can teach a young'un all his tricks and live to regreat it.

Black LS1 T/A

Dang, ur bored!

Reading the post down below yours, would the stand-alone disable your Fuel Trims computations? Have you researched this option well and even found someone else who has done it? Whenever I can, those are two rules I like to live by:

1. Plausible
2. Verifiable