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Procharger Comments from Vice President

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Old 12-22-2003, 08:08 AM
  #121  
f r e z N Y
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Originally posted by GaryK
I think this whole "argument", if you will, is the result of differing expectations and different interpretations of the terminology used. I personally don't agree with everything you say here, but please don't take this as a personal attack...I'm trying to express an important concept here.

Just because a part or kit bolts on, you should not expect that tuning to your vehicle is not required. The kit in question can be called a bolt on modification, but that is not what's important here. By "bolting on" the kit, you are making a drastic change to the car...NA to FI is a big deal, especially when you consider the power gained with this kit. ATI does state that the car needs to be tuned after installing the kit. I don't have the manual handy, but I do know that there are several precautions mentioned in the manual relating to fuel pressure, a/f ratios, and tuning. You cannot expect any bolt on that increases power by this much to be a simple matter of a one size fits all tune.

As far as the timing issue, that is a gray area. If ATI had found problems that resulted from too much timing, they likely would have addressed this in the kit. We are now seeing that some guys are having problems due to the timing. However, there are a ton of variables...fuel octane, atmospheric conditions, other mods, fuel tuning, etc. These all have a big effect on the chances of detonation rearing its ugly head. But they can't control all these.
Gary,
I think you and I are on the same page. I agree that FI is not a simple addition, and that it does require tuning.

My comments above are in a sence, playing devil's advocate, based on the information supplied by ATI. I as a consumer, am lead to believe that it is a "simple" addition to my z for extra HP. Call it "standard marketing strategy" for higher sales, or "missinformation", but I feel as though there are obvious "grey areas" in both the promotion and design of the product.

Last edited by f r e z N Y; 12-22-2003 at 12:57 PM.
Old 12-22-2003, 08:15 AM
  #122  
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Default Re: You're Correct!

Originally posted by BLOBYU
I find it suspicious with regards to timing and subject matter. That's quite all! Jeeeez.
The timing is simply that I saw someone post on LS1.com about an argument between ATI and Vortech on this site and decided to visit to see why a VP would post. As it turns out, it seems he didn't... it looks more like someone hijacked his email.

But, from what else I read in some threads about blown engines, it seemed some discussion about tuning might help you guys out.

My quips about ATI and Vortech are just "ownership pride" jabs... like guys feuding about Firebird or Mustang. I don't really care if you do ATI or Vortech. I DO think ANYONE going with FI should take tuning VERY very seriously. And I take issue that ATI is out to make money at the expense of hurting car enthusiasts. I think they are trying to give us what we want. That has been my experience. And I'm not their mouthpiece... I live in NC, not... um..., is it KS?

My other motivation is I don't want to see vendors who R&D and invest in making products for us go out of business. That makes it harder for ALL of us to get performance parts for our vehicles. If it is a matter of education that may help this situation, why not address it. That's my position.

TIFWIW.
Old 12-22-2003, 08:20 AM
  #123  
jesseenglish
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There are many people on this site who do try to educate, but get harassed and ridiculed because the answers given aren't what people want to hear. They would rather blame ATI then actually fix the problem because it gives them something to do with their time I guess.
Old 12-22-2003, 08:21 AM
  #124  
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And why should we LS1 guys be selfish with knowledge. Many of us felt like newbies to the FI world a couple years ago and gleaned lots of knowledge from The Turbo Regal guys and what-not.

I say get that 350Z supercharged and line up beside me at the old Christmas Tree!
Old 12-22-2003, 08:25 AM
  #125  
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Turning out to be a nice thread. Welcome to the forum Black LS1. Jesse, we appreciate your help.

Now, can one of you guys answer my question on page 6?
Old 12-22-2003, 08:25 AM
  #126  
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Black LS - You're a rare breed! and a welcomed friend as your motivations sound genuine.
Old 12-22-2003, 08:32 AM
  #127  
GaryK
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Originally posted by f r e z N Y
Gary,
I think you and I are on the same page. I agree that FI is not a simple addition, and that it does require tuning.

My comments above are in a sence, are playing devil's advocate, based on the information supplied by ATI. I as a consumer, am lead to believe that it is a "simple" addition to my z for extra HP. Call it "standard marketing strategy" for higher sales, or "missinformation", but I feel as though there are obvious "grey areas" in both the promotion and design of the product.
Agreed! I know exactly where you're coming from. I think that in the end, consumers would be wise to educate themselves to some extent before jumping in with the wallet wide open....and this applies to a lot more than just a supercharger kit. I don't necessarily think it should be that way in an ideal world...but we don't live in an ideal world.
Old 12-22-2003, 09:11 AM
  #128  
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Originally posted by GaryK
Agreed! I know exactly where you're coming from. I think that in the end, consumers would be wise to educate themselves to some extent before jumping in with the wallet wide open....and this applies to a lot more than just a supercharger kit. I don't necessarily think it should be that way in an ideal world...but we don't live in an ideal world.
Old 12-22-2003, 10:21 AM
  #129  
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Default Re: Re: You're Correct!

Originally posted by Black LS1 T/A
The timing is simply that I saw someone post on LS1.com about an argument between ATI and Vortech on this site and decided to visit to see why a VP would post. As it turns out, it seems he didn't... it looks more like someone hijacked his email.
hijacked his email????..........LOL
Old 12-22-2003, 10:34 AM
  #130  
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Default Re: Re: Re: You're Correct!

Originally posted by elektrik_juggernaut
hijacked his email????..........LOL


I shouldn't go assuming... it sounded like someone suggested the post was email that the originator did not know would be posted on the board.
Old 12-22-2003, 10:45 AM
  #131  
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i've got a letter from ATI's Sales Director, Cary Pangrac.......this letter says that i've modded the hell out of my car, even though i'm completely stock........even though i've been in contact with ATI's tech department many, many times, and have made them totally aware that my car is stock...........his research into his letter was shoddy, much like the R&D that went into this kit........but if somebody hijacked his typewriter, then i have no beef with Cary
Old 12-22-2003, 10:53 AM
  #132  
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Default Re: Re: Re: Re: You're Correct!

Originally posted by Black LS1 T/A


I shouldn't go assuming... it sounded like someone suggested the post was email that the originator did not know would be posted on the board.
You were right in your assumption. I'm sure the originator of the email that prompted this thread did not know his private email would be made public.
Old 12-22-2003, 12:13 PM
  #133  
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Default Re: Re: Re: ATI, come on over to LS1Tech.com

Originally posted by Black LS1 T/A

ATI has proven larger power gains than Vortech for years. That's one reason why Vortech has a smaller market share than ATI. So much smaller, in fact, that it appears Vortech employees are sowing misinformation to try to sabotage ATI sales. That is sad.

Why don't you go head to head with ATI and Vortech... same kit, same car, and get proven results?

And you say the Vortech for your car just came out? I'll visit back a few months from now and see how many complaints pop up about it later. However, if the Procharger is STILL outselling (and outperforming) the Vortech unit, there will still be more ATI complaints because that is the real game in town. 5% complaint rate for 100 ATI kits is more kits than 20% complaint rate for 10 Vortech kits.

Seriously, I don't really knock Vortech as a blower... if you want cute, it's awesome. And there is something to be said for cute cars. But, if you want best performance, Procharger still takes the lead.
Smaller market share, huh. Both Vortech and ATI are private companies. This means that our sales figures (dollars and units) are not available to the public. How can you say that they outsell us? I agree with the others here on why all of the sudden LS1 guys got into this mix. Maybe you are happy owners of the competition coming to join in the fun?
Old 12-22-2003, 01:30 PM
  #134  
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Default Re: Re: Re: Re: ATI, come on over to LS1Tech.com

Originally posted by Forced
Smaller market share, huh. Both Vortech and ATI are private companies. This means that our sales figures (dollars and units) are not available to the public. How can you say that they outsell us? I agree with the others here on why all of the sudden LS1 guys got into this mix. Maybe you are happy owners of the competition coming to join in the fun?
Sorry for the "technical economic" term. Perhaps I should have just stated that ATI APPEARS to outsell Vortech based on the number of enthusiasts that frequent the boards. I stated that it really didn't matter to me which supercharger these guys buy... just that they are able to buy.

But, since you came out of the woodwork; is it true that some Vortech rep was posting "fabricated" information on the net concerning ATI and their product?

I researched you guys and ATI before I bought. I was actually leaning toward Vortech. But, then some pretty straight-forward questions I asked were left unanswered and I became uncomfortable with making a Vortech purchase. So, yes I AM a happy owner of the competition.

Would you like me to ask them here? I'll see if I can dig them up from my post two years ago.
Old 12-22-2003, 04:02 PM
  #135  
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Default Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ATI, come on over to LS1Tech.com

Originally posted by Black LS1 T/A
Sorry for the "technical economic" term. Perhaps I should have just stated that ATI APPEARS to outsell Vortech based on the number of enthusiasts that frequent the boards. I stated that it really didn't matter to me which supercharger these guys buy... just that they are able to buy.

But, since you came out of the woodwork; is it true that some Vortech rep was posting "fabricated" information on the net concerning ATI and their product?

I researched you guys and ATI before I bought. I was actually leaning toward Vortech. But, then some pretty straight-forward questions I asked were left unanswered and I became uncomfortable with making a Vortech purchase. So, yes I AM a happy owner of the competition.

Would you like me to ask them here? I'll see if I can dig them up from my post two years ago.
Out of the woodwork? I have been here for a while now. There was one post from one employee and then it blows up to multiple posts by multiple employees. Sheesh. I even posted about it.

Were these questions that you had about our LS1 sytstem? If so, perhaps this isn't the forum for you to post them now. If you posted on LS1.com or another site like it and didn't get a factory response, I apologize. I just started hanging out in this and other forums recently. Perhaps the best place to get your questions answered at the time was to call our sales department. We have always discourage our employees from posting on internet forums saying they work at Vortech. I am comfortable here with everybody, so I do it.
Old 12-22-2003, 04:20 PM
  #136  
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LOL, you're comfortable now, but just wait until a couple engines melt down with a Vortech and the people here will jump on you like rabid dogs. Not being mean, just truthful. Now, I hope nobody blows an engine, but the law of averages says it will happen.
Old 12-22-2003, 04:27 PM
  #137  
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Why don't you guys please take the LS1 ATI/Votech/SC debate back to the LS1 forum and punch it out there.

Good general technical info is useful although the LS1 is worlds removed from a variable cam, four valve V6. Black LS1 T/A, I think if you look at some of the threads on SC, TT, etc you'll find this is tougher job than the LS1. As I believe ATI has found out and other manufacturers may also find.
Old 12-22-2003, 04:39 PM
  #138  
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Originally posted by jesseenglish
LOL, you're comfortable now, but just wait until a couple engines melt down with a Vortech and the people here will jump on you like rabid dogs. Not being mean, just truthful. Now, I hope nobody blows an engine, but the law of averages says it will happen.
Well...Here's to hoping it doesn't come to that!
Old 12-22-2003, 04:58 PM
  #139  
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This thread has become 7+ pages on nonsense....I am so sick of this topic it is not funny...
Old 12-22-2003, 05:06 PM
  #140  
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Here is a question for the LSI Tech/LS1 .com guy's.

I have been a member of LS1 Tech.com since 3-2002 and LS1.com even longer.

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/member.php?u=3452

I was *always* in search of more power and asking questions.

How come not ONE single person ever mentioned ATI lol.

I was there so I can speak on this. In fact at my track most LS1's are all motor, I can't think of a single ATI Blown car out there that runs regurly. They have 383 Stroker engines etc running 10's and N20 Z28's running 11's but in all of my 76 posts there not one person mentioned ATI. Even though my goal was always stated as 1/4 mile mod questions. Why is that?

Not to sound like I don't appreciate your help but let me be as real as possible for a minute even if people don't like it.

When I was driving LS1/FBOD's we laughed at Imports and their posts and never offered them much help.

They were called "ricers" and even worse. Any LS1 Owner denying this is lying if they say this is untrue.

LS1 guys are great guys, in fact I miss my FireHawk, much less headaches then this POS has given me and that's real.

But the sudden influx of LS1 help seems like a "we got ATI's back" type thing, which like EJ pointed out seems odd for an Import forum. The timing (pardon the pun) of 8 blown engines now all of a sudden all of this help from FBOD owners is nice but you have to be an idiot not to at least be a bit skeptical don't you think?

LS1/350Z Apples and Oranges as I am sure you know.

Last edited by 12SecZ; 12-22-2003 at 05:31 PM.


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