i think ive gotten **** about anything that could be possibly wrong with the way my car drives after this stupid feathering problem. it might have been that way from when i first got the car, but it feels like my car is alot rougher on bumps lately. sometimes it feels like the wheels are actually coming off the ground for a split second. maybe im crazy! i wonder if its because of what happening to the tires? at high speeds my car doesnt feel as firm either. it almost feels like my car is falling apart. has anybody else experienced this? like i said, maybe im noticing all these suspension problems b/c of thhis whole feathering ordeal.

 

Boomer... I see your point & belive it or not appreciate the sarcasm. The title of my posting should have read Summary & Theories.
I also should have said:
Do we now have another problem... the Service Manual is incorrect.
Instead of:
So we now have another problem... the Service Manual is incorrect.

Amazing how one letter can completely change the meaning of a statement. Anyway... I think I'll also start to include a discalimer at the bottom of my posts. What do you think?



DISCLAIMER:
The content of this posting is for information purposes only. I am not a representative of Nissan, its subsidiaries or affiliates. I cannot be held responsible for any loss or damage resulting from any information contained in this posting. I also disclaim all warranties, express or implied, as to the accuracy of the information contained in the materials of this posting.

 

I think you are covered. How is ezchief doing on his test, any new calamity to report? Or is he just skatin', waitin' for the sun to shine? Please keep us informed, YM. As you can tell, this one is taking a sabbatical from the problem for now. If it doesn't work, then we may need to chew on Nissan some more, hey?

 

ok silverz fess up - what is the phone # and name of the guy at Nissan Consumer Affairs that was so helpful. I need someone to help me with the service manager at Magnussen Fremont Nissan. Been waiting a month for two new front tires. One more time back to the dealer and then Lemon Law here I come.

 

I bought my Z at Magnusson's Nissan also - but am having a real hard time getting any satisfaction. They did the tire swap, an alignment and ordered me two new front tires A MONTH AGO. Can't wait for them (Magnusson) to put them on - drive 1100 miles and have the same problem

Any response on your petition yet?

One thing I know - I have read the California Lemon Law and Nissan had better get their act togather or I will buy 10 bags of lemons - drive to the front door of Magnusson Nissan - decorate my Z with lemons and call an attorney. Nissan is going to be the proud owner of a 2003 Silverstone Touring Z.

 

I am here guys. I have put about 340 miles on the new tires and plan to go in on Saturday to have the tires miked and get an oil change. I need to go out to Arlington and look at a property so I will have more miles on it by then.

So far, I see no signs of it but we all know it takes a while.

No skating here and the sun is not out in Dallas. I take this very seriously for my Z bros.

 

We appreciate you taking your time to do the testing. We all have our fingers crossed that your fix is the definitive data we need for Nissan to get rid of the feathering problem for good. Thank you, ez. Boomer

 

AMEN!!!!! to bad nissan Owners are doing the R&D for Nissan, but if we can get it figured out, that is all I care about.

btw, if EZ gets this problem solved, I think Nissan owes him some compensation or at least some free NISMO parts!!!

 

You should call NNA and tell them you have feathering and your dealer called it normal and that they told you orally, no alignment documentation, the alignment was within spec. Tell NNA you have serious doubts about their being able to deal with your tire feathering which is NOT normal, and the alignment specs were not shown to you, only that you were told the alignment was within spec. I don't think they know what they are dealing with at all.

But, don't just tell us, tell NNA so they will open a case file. That way your dealer will be on record as ignoring a known problem and just bsing you about the alignment. Call 1-800-Nissan-1 and register your complaints.

 

OK, so after my episode at the dealer ("tire wear normal, alignment normal" but no alignment printout provided) I did a few things:

1) Measured the tread depth

2) Called NNA and opened a case with the first phone rep I got.

3) Filed a complaint by telephone with the NHTSA.

4) Left a message for Steven Lam pointing him to the NNA case number and asking him to get back to me if he had any questions.

As for (1), as of 2065 miles, the tread depth is 6/32" on the front of each tread and 4/32" on the rear of each tread. This is certainly enough difference that it's an obvious problem.

As for (2), they referred me to the Bridgestone dealer. I pointed out that there was a TSB on this problem but that my car was not in the VIN range indicated, and so would the rep please escalate the problem. She promised that she would do this, but who knows what that means.

For (3), I attempted to file a complaint online and found their web interface didn't seem to work. (Maybe my browser, Mozilla, was the problem?) So, I called and filed a complaint by telephone.

As for (4), if Steven Lam really is keeping track of this problem and not just shining everyone on, at least he now has my case number, which establishes that cars built 2/03 are still having the problem. (My vin number ends with 015615.)

-- Mark

 

Good job, Mark. It is disturbing to me, and others I'm sure, that VIN#s as high as yours are showing up with the same problems us early owners have. Nissan is still lagging behind the problems, not being as proactive as we think they should be by now. Over 15,000 cars, still repeating the same mistakes, Why?

 

Here's a window into how engineering for a product like this works:

Several years ago I worked for Mitsubishi Consumer Electronics. I was put in charge of implementing parental lock for our product. I disagreed with the product manager about the specification, which stated that if parental lock was unlocked that all of the channel-specific blocking settings would be immediately cleared and forgotten.

The product manager pointed out to me that there were two ways to build the product -- the way it should work and the way that would minimize the number of support calls. Furthermore, he pointed out that all the support calls related to parental lock were of the form "My kid locked me out of the TV" and virtually nobody called to ask why they couldn't successfully lock their kid out.

Of course, I implemented the feature his way.

The lesson here is that consumer products companies (including car companies) specify products with four primary goals in mind:

1) Maximize pre-sale appeal of the product (in other words, sell a lot of units),

2) minimize regulatory issues, including certification, post-sales regulatory complaints, and lemon law buybacks,

3) minimize warranty repair costs, and

4) minimize the number of support calls.

When products are released that have these problems, engineers usually are pulled off future product development to deal with them. This tire-wear issue potentially has a serious adverse impact on all four of these areas.

Because of that, I have no doubt that Nissan's taking these problems seriously. However, this problem falls into several classes of problems that make it difficult to diagnose and fix:

1) It's a problem that is slow to develop, meaning that it's virtually impossible to test a new car for the problem.

2) It's in a system (the suspension) that has many parts, many parameters, and a very complex interaction between them.

3) It's in a system that is particularly susceptible to user abuse and is at the interface of a part (the tires) that is warranted separately by a different company, so some valid reports may be getting filtered out before they come back to the manufacturer.

The only real solution is to make changes and see what happens over thousands of miles. This can be done in a controlled environment at great cost or it can be done over a longer period of time with customer vehicles. The VIN ranges in the TSB suggest strongly that an unsuccessful attempt at a fix was implemented around the time the TSB was issued.

Probably the engineers are going nuts over this, but that doesn't mean there will be a quick solution.

-- Mark

 

Excellent analysis, Mark. I have no doubt what you are describing is true. The problem is when does such a company devote the big bucks because the customer base is threatening lawsuits, press releases, dumping the offending item on the market, thereby depressing prices and the plain word-of-mouth, don't buy, its junk, situation? We've already had some defections, how many more will decide waiting is not acceptable and continue the bleeding? A reference was made earlier that it took Mitsubishi 2 years to fix their tire/alignment problems on their VR4s.

I will not wait for 2 years for a solution, and I can assure you neither will many of our members. This car is Nissan's icon and stimulator of showroom traffic. What happens to other sales of Nissan products when the Z is found to have feet of clay Nissan can't or won't fix? Why isn't Nissan working with more owners, dealers and alignment experts like Hunter? Or are they doing it and just not telling us they are? The most frustrating thing about this problem is Nissan's silence and assigning a gatekeeper to assign case numbers is not enough to satisfy any owner with half a brain and our membership is made up of many professionals and others whose patience is being sorely tried.

 

How could they do anything else if they don't have a fix? With no fix, any comment would make all of the above problems worse to no end.

Their choices are:

1) Stay quiet, continue production, find a fix and issue a recall at that point. This makes sense if they think that a fix will not be very costly to apply retroactively, as through a recall.

2) Stop production until a fix is found. This only makes sense if the fix will be so costly to apply to cars that are produced between now and when they find a fix that it's better not to make the profit on those cars.

If they announce a problem and say they're working on it, the result will be an increased complaint load, fewer sales, and a worse regulatory situation.

Incidentally, the problem is frustrating, and is made worse by the OEM tires, which wear quickly even for performance tires. However, it's not that serious a problem. The symptoms are obvious before it becomes a safety hazard and it doesn't appear to adversely affect the car's handling -- in fact, fixing the problem may have a serious impact on the car's handling that we won't like.

I don't know that anyone's addressed whether the S-tune suspension still has this problem, but if not: NISMO S-TUNE SUSPENSIONS FOR EVERYBODY!!! WOOHOO!

-- Mark

 

Ha! S-Tunes for everybody. You are a dreamer even though your arguments are sound. Incidentally, one owner says he was told the OE 040s were no longer available, which I thought might be significant and, in light of your comments, the change may be very significant. I have been a vocal opponent of the 040s since the beginning, given the consumer complaints I had read about them in Tire Rack. I tried to have other tires installed before I took possession of the car, but I assumed too much and missed the opportunity. Still, I did replace them at 1600 miles and found the beginnings of abnormal tire wear on the outside of the front tires.

I had the oil change done at 2700 miles and inspected my front tires very closely, but no tire wear was evident. It is true the tires are Ultra High Performance, but they are All Seasons which out performed or equaled the 040s in all categories of Tire Rack's consumer tests. I now have 3700+ miles on the car and 2100 miles on the new tires. I just backed the car out of the garage and looked closely at both front tires.

Everything seems normal on the left front, but the right front seems to be developing a shading on the inside of the tire. No visible wear is present, but the inside shoulder of the tire is darker on the right front than the left. Of course, I need to get the car up on a lift to verify this and I'll try tomorrow. I may take the alignment to .14 and see if something changes, if the beginnings of wear is found. Here we go, at 2100 miles and new tires.

 

I took my car in today for the 9 month service and oil change. My front tires were feathering pretty badly, and were noisy as hell. The dealer said that my alignment was way off from speck. All they did was rotate my two front tires, and correct my alignment. Well I definitely have to say that the noise is gone, and my tires no longer feel or sound like they are feathering. I wonder if this is a temporary fix, or if the feathering will come back after another couple of thousand miles?

When I mentioned the problem to the service guy, he knew exactly what I was talking about, and that there was a TSB out for this issue. Before they even looked at my car, he even mentioned that it may be a geometry problem with the Z's suspension. I sure hope it does not happen again, becuase I don't think that I can afford to replace my tires every 5,000 miles.
I recenly ordered the Nismo S-tune suspension kit (Shocks/Springs/Sway bars), maybe this will help correct the problem?

 

Good question, I'll take a shot. Been a long time, hope memory serves. Depends on where the toe is measured. You need to use tangent or sine. For very small angles tangent and sine are equal. The service manual shows the toe measured from front edge of rims to trailing edge of rims and subtracting the difference.
Front Of Car
/---------A---------\
/ \
/------------B------------\

B-A = Toe. Positive number is Toe in, negative number is Toe out.

So, if your toe is 0 degrees and 9 minutes that would be 9/60 degrees or 0.15 degrees. Given a rim diameter of 18", your toe in inches would be 18 times tangent of 0.15 degrees. 18*tan(0.15)=0.047 inches.

If I remember right, the manual says 1mm to 2mm of toe. So given a rim diameter of 18" and using 25.4 millimeters per inch, that would give a rim diameter of 18inches*25.4mm/inches=457.2mm. The angle in degrees would be arc-tangent of [1 divided by 457.2] and arc-tangent of [2 divided by 457.2] or:

-1 -1
tan (1/457.2)=0.125 degrees & tan (2/457.2)=0.25 degrees

I'm a fan of angular measurements for alignment. Using angular numbers are better than using distance numbers for alignment because the angular numbers are not dependent on the distance between the measurement points. Think of it this way, if your vision was limited to say 5 degrees field of view then at a range of 1 mile you could see 462 feet but at 10 miles you could see 4,620 feet. Saying your field of view is 5 degrees is better than saying your field of view is 1000 feet because if you quote a linear distance you also have to provide a range. Like; my field of view is 1000 feet at 2.16 miles. The point is, for linear distance alignment numbers, the measurement points affect the outcome. So you have to know where the person performing the alignment is making the linear measurement from. Therefore, saying my toe is 0.047 inches is meaningless. I have to say my toe is 0.047 inches measured from back of rim to front of rim and my rims are 18 inches. That number will change for 17" rims or 19s or 20s. At any rate, this should give the formulas we need to calculate either way. Windows calculator can perform these computations, select scientific view, arc-tangent is inverse tangent so check the INV button in windows calculator before clicking on the TAN button to perform an arc-tangent.

At this point, I'm hesitating to put forward these opinions, but believe I need to say something.

From my point of view, alignment specs of hundredths of a degree are ludicrous. That is an extremely small angle/tolerance. We'll be very lucky if we can maintain Toe to within a tenth of a degree over the time and mileage it would take to replace tires and or redo alignments normally. Normally being alignments and tire wear on other similar sports cars in the same price range. And as has already been stated in this thread, weight and cargo affect alignment more than the manual specs. So what I am saying is, if Nissans solution is a Toe alignment spec that has to be held to within hundredths of a degree, then that is not a solution. It's like putting a band-aid on a gut wound. What I'm afraid of is this. Engineers have a tendency to quote the last significant digit off their calculators but fail to understand the world isn't that precise. I can say that because I are one and have done it.

Between my two alignments, my total Toe changed approximately one tenth of a degree, on both the front and the rear. But only the front tires are feathered. Between the two alignments, I travelled less than 2000 miles, and I was VERY carefull to avoid all road obstacles IE pot-holes, debris, etc.

With that said, I want to be clear that I'm not poo-pooing anyones efforts either in this forum or at Nissan. I don't want to be negative. Everyone is truly doing a great job. All of these efforts are absolutely critical and will lead to an eventual solution. Keep up the great work!

But let me suggest that we keep common sense in mind. I don't think we want a solution that has a narrow performance margin. IE it works great as long as it's perfect. But a solution that requires performing alignments every 2000 miles or everytime you want to carry a passenger that weighs a little more or less...or a bag of groceries...is unacceptable to me. I want a solution that has a wide enough performance margin that accounts for normal driving. Normal being a daily driver, not the race track.

And, I have talked to lots of people about this problem who claim to have it on their vehicles (not the Z and not the 040s) or know someone that does and I have personnaly verified/seen it on one rear wheel of a co-workers front wheel drive Toyota. I have also heard of a lot of problems with the 040s. So my point is, there is a lot of conflicting info out there that confuses this issue.

Lastly as many of us have stated for all sorts of various reasons, Nissan won't fix this problem until it starts hurting sales. The petition is a great idea. At some point we may want to consider how we can get the message out to current and potential Z owners about this problem. Judging from posts in this thread and my own experience, I'm thinking a couple of threads in the problems and maintenance forum isn't enough. Maybe a flashing bold sign on every page? LOL! Nissan, you really need to fix this problem.


Enforcer

P.S. My alignment specs from my dealer are always in degrees.

 

I had same problem they just repalced two front tires for me at 7200 miles it pretty bad when you have a rear wheel drive car and you need to replace fronts before the rears.

 

Just got back from having my Z aligned. I have 4000 miles on my car and the inside of both front tires was showing signs of feathering.
Alignment Specs:
LF: Before= -0.15 After= 0.05
RF: Before= -0.05 After= 0.05
So, my alignment was off. Also had the tires swapped L to R per the TSB. I hope this solves the problem

 

From Deb's Other Half:

Hey, this is probably a rehash but I've never been one to believe that this type of hard-to-define problem has just one cause or cure. Doing some more research, I found the following commentary at a website interesting:

"Some low profile tires (mostly performance tires), tend to develop uneven wear patterns because of their belt and tread design. As the tire rolls along, the deflection and squirming of the tread produces harmonics that cause certain areas of the tread or ribs to wear more than others. The wear pattern can be further compounded by other factors such as toe misalignment, wheel imbalance, wheel runout, underinflation or lack of rotation. After awhile, a "heel and toe" or "washboard" wear pattern may develop that generates annoying noise and vibrations at speeds above 40 mph. Once the wear pattern is established, it's too late to reverse it by rotating the tires. So the only cure you can recommend is to replace the tires and possibly switch to another brand or style that is less "quirky." "

There were also comments about tires whose sidewalls were not uniformly flexible (stiff spots) and caused bounce, sometimes noticeable and sometimes not.

Additional comment about caster from that same site - "Caster can have an effect here, too. Caster causes the wheels to lean or tilt when steered, which changes camber (called "camber roll"). A lot of caster may therefore cause an increase in shoulder wear. This type of condition is common on vehicles like Mercedes and BMW that have high caster settings."

In addition, many sites I have found talk about heel-toe wear on the outside edge of a tire as being primarily a result of hard cornering and scuffing rather than just alignment - this is very common on motorcycle front tires (yes, I ride). As I read about drivers with wear problems, I hear "feathering", "heel-toe" and I'm not sure if everyone is speaking the same language. I'm wondering if we have a problem that is unique to our Z because of a combination of "quirky" tires, bad alignment caused during shipping, poor factory specs for toe that have changed, large caster (like Mercedes and BMW - two cars known for handling), hard driving, etc.

If you have "feathering", try and let everyone know if it is from inside to outside our vice versa. Feathering is usually found across the entire tread (side to side) and indicates if the toe problem is in or out. If you have heel-toe (runs with the tread), is it on the inside or outside.

Or, as most will probably do, ignore this rant and continue looking for the cause/cure. By the way, is there anyone out there who has changed tire brands and solved their heel-toe shoulder wear problem??

Now with 2000 miles, I seem to be noticing a little bit of heel-toe wear on the outside tread row - and the wife tends to corner her car hard (race driver wannabe!). There is no feathering to be felt either inside to outside or outside to inside.

I'm done. In case your wondering, try -http://www.babcox.com/editorial/tr/tr129622.htm

DOH

VIN 111637
Toe= .05 degrees on both tires (.10 degrees total toe)
Camber= -1 (left), .05 (right) cross camber - this is concerning since the right tire is out of spec - I'm watcing it.
Caster= 8.5 left and 8.2 right