JasonZ-YA

iTrader: (60)

as an avid drifter..the only one that remotely shows wear is the shock mount one......

i have yet to see any of the other tear, deform, loose center, etc...

the rear spindle bushings are so small that oem rubber or nismo rubber replacements are more than fine......whiteline to, etc...but as needed, no need to swap it all out if they are good..

-J

robmarley

iTrader: (6)

Thank you guys,

I appreciate the input. Also Jay, thanks for taking the time to maintain this thread, it is filled with great info. If you find time, elaboration would be incredible.

~ Rob

JasonZ-YA

iTrader: (60)

SUSPENSION RELATED:

REASON:
Notice that the two points that connect the wheel to the chassis are items #1 and #2 -- so, its not recommended that you have solid at the compression arm and rubber (whiteline) at the translink, ie....a whiteline rubber bushing there will have friction coeffiecient much higher than at the solid (bearing designed) SPL compression rod location.

Any suspension movement would have to over come this friction for the Transverse link location to begin travel....thus changing the suspension arm at the bottom slightly.

Now remember, theres nothing wrong with doing whiteline at item #2, but its not optimal is all....still a very great improvement over stock for sure!!


Ideally the same thing applies here..........
if you have solid chassis mount points at the lower arms then optimally you would go with arms like SPL's front upper control arms - becuase they use machined rod ends at the chassis tower mount (caster adjustment) location.
see here in blue:

or
arms like the 350evo or Esprit arms that have rod end solid chassis mount points.

at the very least, get arms that have a metal SLEEVE in them like the kinetics arms:



REASON: Due to item#1 being the shock mount location, especially on true coilovers, this location gets beat up, off-centered and in time can show cracking/tears in it.....

the other bushings in the rear spindle as small.....and have very minimal articulation that oem rubber is fine for the most part.

Item 1 - Shock mount bushing just use whiteline. SPL's would be nice, but ive only seen Import parts pro sell it separately.



Item 2 - Radius rod bushing is large, and during launches can deform.....replacing with solid rod end style arms like SPL, battle version, etc would eliminate this and ensure the rear suspension geometry doesn't change under loading.

REASON - No brainer, the rear subframe bushing tears...replace it now or later, but it will need it with abuse or age......

Reason - Whiteline subframe rear bushings i feel wont be utilized till your on the track frequently......no point in doing all that work on a street driven car......the oem bushings dont tear, but they are soft......so you can go with out replacing them if your not a track *****...

Solid subframe bushings (if wanted) can be fabricated easily from any local machine shop.
see some solid ones here:
https://my350z.com/forum/autocross-r...verything.html

-J

robmarley

iTrader: (6)

Incredible, thanks again. My car is a daily driver, but I can't help but drive it hard. I will probably go without the subframe bushings, but everything else I think I will go solid bushings. Thanks for the knowledge. One last question tho... do you think the Z1 transmission mount bushing is a worthwhile upgrade?

~ Rob

JasonZ-YA

iTrader: (60)

no i dont.....for a daily z your just eliminating the weak link and putting more abuse in the tranny...........

I would routinely change tranny bushings with oem units after X amount of miles, etc..

-J

e30cabrio

iTrader: (30)

How many miles on the tranny bushing would you recommend?

JasonZ-YA

iTrader: (60)

^ cant really give a number, inspect it......all depends on use, hard shifts, shifting style, etc....

buy a new oem one, remove the old one and compare.........if still good, stash the new one till later...

-J

dpotter

The shop failed to give me the print out.. I asked for it post alignment and I'm going to call and demand it now even if they need to put it back on the rack.

I had a shop install my springs and camber kits then they took it to the alignment shop. I went back to the alignment shop asking for the information, he put it up on the rack, showed me factory specs being -5 and with having the passenger side maxed out he said it would be @ -1.5.

Explains that it's common for sports cars to run negative camber/ toe due the changes at speed. I'm really not concerned from that aspect, I just want the car to be as close to factory specs after the drop and kit install as possible for the most obvious reasons. tire wear and to look normal even if that requires other parts to get it there.

What are my options? I did visually inspect the passenger side to see the kit maxed out on adjustment, that being said....I'm not even close to being able to transfer my biz degree into a any form of benefit mechanicall nor have real experience with vehicle workings other than some basic knowledge so my visual inspection is not very credible at all.

Thanks,
d

ZJoe

iTrader: (8)

So Jason, I've been reading through this thread and have decided to really try and dial in my suspension so it's about as solid as a street car can be without overdoing it. Currently I'm running on KW V2 coils and Volk 19" LE37's (+22 all around). I had the alignment done the same day the coils were installed in June. Before the coils and alignment the car drifted to the right and it continues to do so afterward as well. I have not had the time, and honestly the attention span, to address this.

After reading through this thread I went out and looked at my tires and sure enough the inside fronts are worn down. My thoughts on what to do are:

REAR:
1. After market adjustable rear camber arm, (most likely Eibach for the brass sleeve thingy).
2. Rear Toe bolt. Ie. SPC 72055

Front:
1.) Kinetix A-arms
2.) lower control arms

I also want to go through and replace various bushings, based on your recommendations, since the car has 80K miles as of this writing.

Here is my alignment sheet. Do you see anything unusual? What is odd, and something I was not very happy about, was that the technician told me he lowered the front more than the back because he thought it "looked cool". It was not so much of a difference that I told him to fix it but I also didn't have time for him to fix it anyway. I will mention this to the owner of the shop when I return because I can't imagine that would be a sound approach for keeping alignment.



So, with my car at 80K miles and the set up I have so far, and after my alignment, what more would you suggest for a solid daily driver with no left or right drift? I may wind up taking it to the track in the future but I don't have a time line for that and it certainly won't be often.

JasonZ-YA

iTrader: (60)

Dpotter and Zjoe,

both of you guys need to compare what you have to the actual factory specs..the following is taken from post #3:
FRONT ALIGNMENT:


REAR ALIGNMENT:

NOTICE how the alignment machine rounds up the alignment specs.............these machines are only so accurate...and accuracy is done via a wrench so "in practice" is a completely different method that theory.........



I will reply to each of you separately now..give me a min..

-J

JasonZ-YA

iTrader: (60)

ya, definitely....do that..


factory being -5???? read the above post and post#3....what was -1.5 front or rear? rear thats in spec, front, not so much...


yes, it is common for sports cars to run negative #'s, but there are still specs to be in and out of...

your options, as outlined at the beginning of this thread are to get front upper control arms (UCA) to fix front camber

and rear to get spc toe bolt and rear camber arm, from there all will be adjustable.

caster is dependent on the arms you buy up front, read up on that, but odds are you dont need it...

-J

JasonZ-YA

iTrader: (60)

odds are the drift is your compression rod bushings....read up on the thread, how to i made on replacing the compression rod bushing and you can inspect yours for cracks/tears.

spl compression rod install:
https://my350z.com/forum/brakes-and-...?highlight=spl


REAR you got right.

front, item 1 is all you need....not sure what you mean by item 2???

again, reaffirming my suspicion on you having a torn compression rod bushing with 80k miles and your car drifting on the road...

lowering the front cause it looked cool?? oh man, what a moron...not sure what to tell ya there...other than read my post#9 - you should have the car set to where front and rear height gives the correct ratio...

going off that, everything on your alignment sheet looks horrible....caster is way high, front and rear camber is out of spec and will cause tire wear......

and your toe doesn't make sense at all, even the fractional range specs given........review the factory spec numbers i posted above for you and potter..........taken from post 3 and you can see for yourself..

-J

JDMStanced

iTrader: (16)

I have some questions or comments on post #7 and 8.
For #7, you said that you could count the number of turn of the Kinetix a arm head for track set up and DD set up. Yes, you could go to track and change the camber by yourself but what about the toe? Doesn't toe change when you adjust the camber? But camber doesn't change when you change the toe. Told by Discount tire alignment guy.
For #8, You said that the caster and camber change at the same time on SPC a arm. But that's not true. The caster plate has couple of knotches so that you can place it on a specific adjustment of the caster. Like if you place the plate on one knotch then you increase, let say, .08 degrees of caster. The plate is pushed against the camber arm from bottom to top. So sliding the camber head in and out to adjust the camber would not affect the caster..
I don't think anyone has mentioned it so i might be wrong lol.

JasonZ-YA

iTrader: (60)

7. Per every .5 degree of camber more negative toe changes .008 to .009, very minute amount that you can account for when you do your initial alignment.

See, if you own those arms (kinetics or SPL's) you can verify and should with your drop, set up, etc:

You can get your alignment set at where you want it, then before removing it from the rack, you can have the alignment tech check various set ups:

Kinetics: while still on the rack, you can remove the nut, turn in the head end say 1 turn at a time, reinstalling the nut each time, taking readings each time and noting down the camber and toe change. (Good idea to buy a regular nut, and not a pinched lock nut for ease of multiple changing while at the alignment shop, but leave with the pinch nut installed)

From what i have seen with the kinetics
with a car dropped 1 to 1.5 inches, every 360 degree turn in, results in about .2 to .3 degree's of camber change.

So if you get your car set up with a starting point at:
-1.30camber/.02toe (in spec for daily driving, set nearly all the way out on the kinetics head).

Then you can then: camber/toe
turn in 1 turn (.3 delta) and be at -1.6/.028
turn in 2 turns (.6 delta) and be at -1.9/.036
turn in 3 turns (.9 delta) and be at -2.2/.044

Mind you, you are gaining out of spec, negative camber for the autoX/track course, but maintaining an "in spec" toe with a starting reference point you set from the beginning.

You can set it up your starting point to do so as you please.....

SPL: uses shims with a thickness-to-degree camber change ratio.

So, if you install your front upper SPL control arms and have ALL 3 given shims installed with your car aligning in at -1.5/.028 THEN;

you can remove the one each 1 degree thick shim and now you are at:
-2.5/.044

.028 starting toe
+ .008(per half degree camber)
+.008(per 2nd half degree camber) = .044 toe resulting from 1 complete degree change of camber from -1.5 to -2.5 with the removal of 1 shim track side!

8. Yes, i understand that, i guess i mean to say that its a single point adjustment......as in, you must loosen the same nut and accuracy isn't sure fire there as it is with SEPARATE camber and separate caster adjustment points. as in, course side, can you be sure of exactly what camber you are changing your car too? and can you do so with out DEFINITELY changing caster....yes there are notches, but it no sure fire designation, plus tightening and loosening that nut to its high torque spec and slightly moving it as you do...etc....

-J

JasonZ-YA

iTrader: (60)

When i go to alignment, even though i have an alignment special that pays for my alignment, i take a wee bit of cash with me still.........I make sure the tech has time and is able to do multiple alignments with adjustments before starting and let him know i have some cash for his extra time spent!

I have the alignment tech align my car at my given height and starting spec i want, be it for daily driving or whatever I or you want.

Then, since i have SPL upper arms, i remove the 1 degree shim from my upper arms, have him shoot the alignment again and see where Im at..

I get print outs of each set up.

I will even continue from there and remove more shims, or whatever i want to do or make adjustments as i want, etc...

Gotta pay to play! my car is a sole track car, so i set it up as i please........

You may purchase Kinetics or SPL arms, and with your set up, you can get the alignment guy to do multiple shoots after 1 turn, 2 turns, etc.......and learn that at your cars height adjustment see what exactly your numbers change too..... GET IT?

-J

JDMStanced

iTrader: (16)

Thanks for clarifying things, Jason.
Did you say you go to Firestone? How much did you charge or normally charge OFFICIALLY? Wihout tips to the tech lol.

JasonZ-YA

iTrader: (60)

^ no problem..

I have NTB 5year alignment on all my cars....NTB charges $189 for it.
So technically I can go as many times as I want....but since they know me there and know im semi using/abusing the system to get multiple alignments, i tend to toss the tech some cash...usually like 20-30 bucks tip...

plus, im there, with my own tools, helping, doing one side, while he does the other, etc...I there making sure its done right!

-J

JDMStanced

iTrader: (16)

i guess NTB here sucks. $300 for 3 yrs alignment..-_- just because i have SPC a arm. Without adjusting the front camber would be $200.
THe tech told me the cost is more because i have to after market alignment kits.
He said even though they don't adjust the front camber, it would cost more than the normal because they have to keep adjusting, playing around with the rear toe and rear camber arm..If one is adjusted than other changes. That's how the alignment should be done. Douche..LOL

betamotorsports

iTrader: (1)

If they get the alignment number to exactly what you want, then $300 is fair. I charge a minimum of $400 for a race alignment and that typically takes more then 4 hours to do.

dpotter

Ok Jason, I had them put it back on the rack today and get me a print out.

Tell me what you see.

Keep in mind I do have the Eibach front and rear camber kits installed.

Car Alignment.pdf