My unenviable experience concerning BuiltZMotors
08-09-2007, 01:08 PM
#222
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Originally Posted by JoeDirtPharmD
Listen, rcdash hit it on the head. Todd’s emails did not instill any faith that he would examine the motor in a non-biased manner.
The point wasn’t to dog on Todd – but I was unsatisfied with his responses leading up to the matter and I’ve been sitting here for 9 weeks with a bum motor. A motor that was inherently faulty.
Now – I did not go against Todd’s advice. He clearly stated that if GTM did the work, he would comp for rings/bearings. Issue is, this is beyond a simple machining oopsy. I charged both Todd and GTM with the responsibility to communicate with eachother. I am satisfied this has been done accordingly.
So, I did not go against his advice – he passively approved for work to be performed at GTM. When it was discovered that things were well beyond the original scope of concern (as eloquently stated in Tengai's post above), that’s when I requested a refund. If findings revealed a simple machining issue with the valves or whatnot, this story would have never been told and I would have been just another of the silent.
I’ve given the go-ahead for Todd to receive the motor – so I’ve cooperated to the best that I can. I’ve spoken with Sam this morning, I believe he will be giving the 3rd-party perspective in this thread shortly – the court of public opinion can continue to draw its own conclusions.
The point wasn’t to dog on Todd – but I was unsatisfied with his responses leading up to the matter and I’ve been sitting here for 9 weeks with a bum motor. A motor that was inherently faulty.
Now – I did not go against Todd’s advice. He clearly stated that if GTM did the work, he would comp for rings/bearings. Issue is, this is beyond a simple machining oopsy. I charged both Todd and GTM with the responsibility to communicate with eachother. I am satisfied this has been done accordingly.
So, I did not go against his advice – he passively approved for work to be performed at GTM. When it was discovered that things were well beyond the original scope of concern (as eloquently stated in Tengai's post above), that’s when I requested a refund. If findings revealed a simple machining issue with the valves or whatnot, this story would have never been told and I would have been just another of the silent.
I’ve given the go-ahead for Todd to receive the motor – so I’ve cooperated to the best that I can. I’ve spoken with Sam this morning, I believe he will be giving the 3rd-party perspective in this thread shortly – the court of public opinion can continue to draw its own conclusions.
Sounds like you decided to waive the warranty of the motor when you decided to take BZM's offer of the rings and bearings.
It sounds like Todd got on this as soon as he knew about it. But there's nothing you can do when you don't let him have the motor back so that he can take care of you.
You can't seriously expect to have the builder of the motor believe some other shop about the condition of the motor when there is money to be made.
Before this unfortunate turn of events you obviously felt that BZM put out a good product. You must have also felt that GTM was good as well since you took your car there after. So they both have equal standing. But since now there is finger pointing, all of a sudden you cannot trust what Todd is saying and GTM's word it golden. Maybe Todd sent you a bad motor, maybe he didn't. No way to know unless he was to get it back without it being messed with.
I just believe it was premature to let GTM tear it down before Todd could do his thing.
08-09-2007, 01:10 PM
#223
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Originally Posted by JoeDirtPharmD
...
So, I did not go against his advice – he passively approved for work to be performed at GTM.
...
So, I did not go against his advice – he passively approved for work to be performed at GTM.
...
08-09-2007, 01:12 PM
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Sounds like Todd is being very fair at this point. I think the whole thing is kinda fishy. Why didn't the OP just send the motor back to BZM and have them perform the diagnostics and any repair work? I really can't feel to bad for someone who is unwilling to work with the company that sold the product especially when they are offering to cover shipping and repairs. Theres probably more dialog to this story but, i'm going off whats written.
08-09-2007, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by THE TECH
I just believe it was premature to let GTM tear it down before Todd could do his thing.
08-09-2007, 01:22 PM
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Just to sum up what appears to be the general consensus of this thread, lately, we believe you should have followed the stated warranty and sent your motor back to Todd. If you decided against this, you in-turn decided to act against the warranty's terms and therefore have voided that warranty. Yet, Todd still appears to be willing to honor his original warranty even after you refused his terms, and yet you still ignore it and just want your money back? Don, you need to be a little more rational, regardless of your current mood, and give Todd the chance which is due.
08-09-2007, 01:34 PM
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How about a suggestion of sharing responsibility from all 3 parties? 
Obviously the engine somehow broke down, and communication interstates-among 3 parties- broke down even quicker. that's understandable because company pay people 200k+ salary just to maintain communications. Even then, problem exist. Words were interpreted wrong, and assumption made.
If we pause the drama/temper, and take a deep breath and contenplate, all 3 parties would realize they could have do things a differently. Flaming temper, bashing members, and jabbing each other like a boxing match will not solve much. Everyone knows risks associated with FI, and we still do it
, so each side swallow some pride, and some of the gigantic cost.
Wouldn't it be nice if:
1. BZM buy back the motor at 1/2 the price? He'll in CA anyway, let him take it back. The price is 1/2 because things happened to the motor that were beyond the control of BZM. Personally, if BZM fixed that motor, I might that particular engine later on
2. OP would recover 1/2 of the built engine cost to pay for his GTM bill. He made it clear that he trust their work, and willing to dish out the cash.
3. GTM could give OP a discount because of his special
circumstance.
Then the FI forum will have less headache, and drama??????????
Obviously the engine somehow broke down, and communication interstates-among 3 parties- broke down even quicker. that's understandable because company pay people 200k+ salary just to maintain communications. Even then, problem exist. Words were interpreted wrong, and assumption made.
If we pause the drama/temper, and take a deep breath and contenplate, all 3 parties would realize they could have do things a differently. Flaming temper, bashing members, and jabbing each other like a boxing match will not solve much. Everyone knows risks associated with FI, and we still do it
, so each side swallow some pride, and some of the gigantic cost.Wouldn't it be nice if:
1. BZM buy back the motor at 1/2 the price? He'll in CA anyway, let him take it back. The price is 1/2 because things happened to the motor that were beyond the control of BZM. Personally, if BZM fixed that motor, I might that particular engine later on
2. OP would recover 1/2 of the built engine cost to pay for his GTM bill. He made it clear that he trust their work, and willing to dish out the cash.
3. GTM could give OP a discount because of his special
circumstance.Then the FI forum will have less headache, and drama??????????
08-09-2007, 01:35 PM
#229
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Originally Posted by TENGAI
Agreed. Whether or not Todd was prompted into a more responsive mode of action by this move is almost moot at this point. What's left now is a nasty three-way with no chicks....
08-09-2007, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeDirtPharmD
Egads – you step away for a Med Exec meeting, only to come back to more crap.
Listen, rcdash hit it on the head. Todd’s emails did not instill any faith that he would examine the motor in a non-biased manner. I haven’t shared the number of comments expressed to me about him, but as he maintains that GTM made assumptions pre-inspection, he did as well.
‘Garbage’ was a ***** statement. I shared my experience, not yours, or what ‘should have been’. GTM was convenient, assuring and proven. What I purchased was a block that was to be capable of 550rwhp and problem-free. What I received was a subpar product with pistons hitting the heads and chunks of crap in the oil pan. So, yes Bri, we’re all privy to what I got because I posted the pictures.
As to whether GTM is bias: I would have received the same contentions (from likely the same members) if I had taken it to Jose’s Motor shop in El Mirage. “Oh, you should’ve taken it to someone proven, etc., etc.. Interested to know what qualifies at a non-biased 3rd party investigator?
The point wasn’t to dog on Todd – but I was unsatisfied with his responses leading up to the matter and I’ve been sitting here for 9 weeks with a bum motor. A motor that was inherently faulty.
The thread, not intended to be a court of public opinion, was intended to share my experience. I have found that within the past 6 mos. there have been others that echo my experience, and it sucks I get to stick my neck out there and say, “Here’s what I got.” No doubt Todd is a reputable guy, ‘tis why I bought the motor in the first place.
However, having been made aware of ALL of the communication taken place between all parties, I did not have faith that my matter would be handled appropriately or in my favor despite no fault of my own. Thus, the car is GTM and will remain there until complete. Now, is Sam blowing smoke up my ***? Hardly. It’s just business… I view the matter as no different than an appliance, a tool, or anything that doesn't work as promised. Now - for those that side on the argument that the modding biz is purely without recourse, we could pick apart the Hennesey Viper debaucle
Now – I did not go against Todd’s advice. He clearly stated that if GTM did the work, he would comp for rings/bearings. Issue is, this is beyond a simple machining oopsy. I charged both Todd and GTM with the responsibility to communicate with eachother. I am satisfied this has been done accordingly. Having reviewed the texts/PMs that Todd sent to Sam immediately after receiving my summary of findings, it would appear that Todd was attempting to conceal something. In any case, I guess I was not to be privy to the results until they had worked something out… Sam chose to share the information with me ahead of time.
So, when it’s YOUR money on the line, you’re going to tell me to invest in the same defunct product and hope for a better outcome next time? I busted my *** for my money – the smart move was to pay for assurance in this case. I didn't demand $13k - simply the cost of the faulty product. No more, no less. Does his product bear culpability in that the install had to be performed twice, yes - and I resent BZM for that. But, it's just business.
So, I did not go against his advice – he passively approved for work to be performed at GTM. When it was discovered that things were well beyond the original scope of concern (as eloquently stated in Tengai's post above), that’s when I requested a refund. If findings revealed a simple machining issue with the valves or whatnot, this story would have never been told and I would have been just another of the silent.
I’ve given the go-ahead for Todd to receive the motor – so I’ve cooperated to the best that I can. I’ve spoken with Sam this morning, I believe he will be giving the 3rd-party perspective in this thread shortly – the court of public opinion can continue to draw its own conclusions.
Listen, rcdash hit it on the head. Todd’s emails did not instill any faith that he would examine the motor in a non-biased manner. I haven’t shared the number of comments expressed to me about him, but as he maintains that GTM made assumptions pre-inspection, he did as well.
‘Garbage’ was a ***** statement. I shared my experience, not yours, or what ‘should have been’. GTM was convenient, assuring and proven. What I purchased was a block that was to be capable of 550rwhp and problem-free. What I received was a subpar product with pistons hitting the heads and chunks of crap in the oil pan. So, yes Bri, we’re all privy to what I got because I posted the pictures.
As to whether GTM is bias: I would have received the same contentions (from likely the same members) if I had taken it to Jose’s Motor shop in El Mirage. “Oh, you should’ve taken it to someone proven, etc., etc.. Interested to know what qualifies at a non-biased 3rd party investigator?
The point wasn’t to dog on Todd – but I was unsatisfied with his responses leading up to the matter and I’ve been sitting here for 9 weeks with a bum motor. A motor that was inherently faulty.
The thread, not intended to be a court of public opinion, was intended to share my experience. I have found that within the past 6 mos. there have been others that echo my experience, and it sucks I get to stick my neck out there and say, “Here’s what I got.” No doubt Todd is a reputable guy, ‘tis why I bought the motor in the first place.
However, having been made aware of ALL of the communication taken place between all parties, I did not have faith that my matter would be handled appropriately or in my favor despite no fault of my own. Thus, the car is GTM and will remain there until complete. Now, is Sam blowing smoke up my ***? Hardly. It’s just business… I view the matter as no different than an appliance, a tool, or anything that doesn't work as promised. Now - for those that side on the argument that the modding biz is purely without recourse, we could pick apart the Hennesey Viper debaucle
Now – I did not go against Todd’s advice. He clearly stated that if GTM did the work, he would comp for rings/bearings. Issue is, this is beyond a simple machining oopsy. I charged both Todd and GTM with the responsibility to communicate with eachother. I am satisfied this has been done accordingly. Having reviewed the texts/PMs that Todd sent to Sam immediately after receiving my summary of findings, it would appear that Todd was attempting to conceal something. In any case, I guess I was not to be privy to the results until they had worked something out… Sam chose to share the information with me ahead of time.
So, when it’s YOUR money on the line, you’re going to tell me to invest in the same defunct product and hope for a better outcome next time? I busted my *** for my money – the smart move was to pay for assurance in this case. I didn't demand $13k - simply the cost of the faulty product. No more, no less. Does his product bear culpability in that the install had to be performed twice, yes - and I resent BZM for that. But, it's just business.
So, I did not go against his advice – he passively approved for work to be performed at GTM. When it was discovered that things were well beyond the original scope of concern (as eloquently stated in Tengai's post above), that’s when I requested a refund. If findings revealed a simple machining issue with the valves or whatnot, this story would have never been told and I would have been just another of the silent.
I’ve given the go-ahead for Todd to receive the motor – so I’ve cooperated to the best that I can. I’ve spoken with Sam this morning, I believe he will be giving the 3rd-party perspective in this thread shortly – the court of public opinion can continue to draw its own conclusions.
The main problem is that you are still operating on the assumption that this is in fact a faulty motor before Todd has even had a chance to look at it. Sam's "theory" about bearing clearance and bore clearance doesn't hold water because there is still over 20 thousandths of clearance that are unaccounted for in his assessment. Wait until todd gets the motor and has a chance to look at it before making a conclusion.
08-09-2007, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Conceyted
Just to sum up what appears to be the general consensus of this thread, lately, we believe you should have followed the stated warranty and sent your motor back to Todd. If you decided against this, you in-turn decided to act against the warranty's terms and therefore have voided that warranty. Yet, Todd still appears to be willing to honor his original warranty even after you refused his terms, and yet you still ignore it and just want your money back? Don, you need to be a little more rational, regardless of your current mood, and give Todd the chance which is due.
+1, This just about sums it up.
08-09-2007, 02:51 PM
#234
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As you all can imagine, we don't want this to happen to anyone, I feel aweful that Don is going through this. I'm dissapointed that his opinion of us is so poor, the way that this reflects upon our product throughout the community, and I understand his unhappiness regarding his stress, time, and expenditures.
But I do want the rest of the my350z community know how we operate:
As I stated before, we do not cut any corners. I truely believe and know that we deliver an excellent product, and this is why this thread and the originally posted findings are so disturbing to me, I want to see it myself, as I am in disbelief to an extent. I am not doubting that there is an issue with this motor, obviously, low compression in cylinder #1, something is wrong, I need to determine the cause. We have an excellent machine shop that does all of our work that we have used for sometime, that has been in this industry for over 30 years, I want the main machinist to disect and interpret and determine the error.
One mistake I made with Don is that I underestimated what was going on with his situation at first. I thought that he was simply having start up issues, tuning issues, injector issues, based on the brief reports he would give me. I should have/needed to tell him, more clearly and concisely, our policy and warantee at that time. I just simply assumed that this was not a mechanical issue. We have had so many successes and good feedback that I have geared my mind this way.
I was reluctant to admit a mistake on our part because I know the care that we exercise to produce a quality product. Again, I am anxious to get this motor back to inspect ( I fear that I may have to reassemble most of it and then tear it down again just to learn anything from it-as it is already disassembled), and hopefully I can conclusivley derive the cause. I will keep you all posted, as this will be a learning experience for us all.
Everyone can make mistakes, I don't like to admit mistakes that aren't mine (at this point it is not conclusive per the circumstances in the last 11 pages of this thread), so I may have come off as hesitant to Don, I apologize. I told him what I will do, even after all of his negativity towards us and I hope that will ease some of his anxiety.
All the best,
TODD
But I do want the rest of the my350z community know how we operate:
As I stated before, we do not cut any corners. I truely believe and know that we deliver an excellent product, and this is why this thread and the originally posted findings are so disturbing to me, I want to see it myself, as I am in disbelief to an extent. I am not doubting that there is an issue with this motor, obviously, low compression in cylinder #1, something is wrong, I need to determine the cause. We have an excellent machine shop that does all of our work that we have used for sometime, that has been in this industry for over 30 years, I want the main machinist to disect and interpret and determine the error.
One mistake I made with Don is that I underestimated what was going on with his situation at first. I thought that he was simply having start up issues, tuning issues, injector issues, based on the brief reports he would give me. I should have/needed to tell him, more clearly and concisely, our policy and warantee at that time. I just simply assumed that this was not a mechanical issue. We have had so many successes and good feedback that I have geared my mind this way.
I was reluctant to admit a mistake on our part because I know the care that we exercise to produce a quality product. Again, I am anxious to get this motor back to inspect ( I fear that I may have to reassemble most of it and then tear it down again just to learn anything from it-as it is already disassembled), and hopefully I can conclusivley derive the cause. I will keep you all posted, as this will be a learning experience for us all.
Everyone can make mistakes, I don't like to admit mistakes that aren't mine (at this point it is not conclusive per the circumstances in the last 11 pages of this thread), so I may have come off as hesitant to Don, I apologize. I told him what I will do, even after all of his negativity towards us and I hope that will ease some of his anxiety.
All the best,
TODD
08-09-2007, 03:59 PM
#236
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Originally Posted by 350zDCalb
As you all can imagine, we don't want this to happen to anyone, I feel aweful that Don is going through this. I'm dissapointed that his opinion of us is so poor, the way that this reflects upon our product throughout the community, and I understand his unhappiness regarding his stress, time, and expenditures.
But I do want the rest of the my350z community know how we operate:
As I stated before, we do not cut any corners. I truely believe and know that we deliver an excellent product, and this is why this thread and the originally posted findings are so disturbing to me, I want to see it myself, as I am in disbelief to an extent. I am not doubting that there is an issue with this motor, obviously, low compression in cylinder #1, something is wrong, I need to determine the cause. We have an excellent machine shop that does all of our work that we have used for sometime, that has been in this industry for over 30 years, I want the main machinist to disect and interpret and determine the error.
One mistake I made with Don is that I underestimated what was going on with his situation at first. I thought that he was simply having start up issues, tuning issues, injector issues, based on the brief reports he would give me. I should have/needed to tell him, more clearly and concisely, our policy and warantee at that time. I just simply assumed that this was not a mechanical issue. We have had so many successes and good feedback that I have geared my mind this way.
I was reluctant to admit a mistake on our part because I know the care that we exercise to produce a quality product. Again, I am anxious to get this motor back to inspect ( I fear that I may have to reassemble most of it and then tear it down again just to learn anything from it-as it is already disassembled), and hopefully I can conclusivley derive the cause. I will keep you all posted, as this will be a learning experience for us all.
Everyone can make mistakes, I don't like to admit mistakes that aren't mine (at this point it is not conclusive per the circumstances in the last 11 pages of this thread), so I may have come off as hesitant to Don, I apologize. I told him what I will do, even after all of his negativity towards us and I hope that will ease some of his anxiety.
All the best,
TODD
But I do want the rest of the my350z community know how we operate:
As I stated before, we do not cut any corners. I truely believe and know that we deliver an excellent product, and this is why this thread and the originally posted findings are so disturbing to me, I want to see it myself, as I am in disbelief to an extent. I am not doubting that there is an issue with this motor, obviously, low compression in cylinder #1, something is wrong, I need to determine the cause. We have an excellent machine shop that does all of our work that we have used for sometime, that has been in this industry for over 30 years, I want the main machinist to disect and interpret and determine the error.
One mistake I made with Don is that I underestimated what was going on with his situation at first. I thought that he was simply having start up issues, tuning issues, injector issues, based on the brief reports he would give me. I should have/needed to tell him, more clearly and concisely, our policy and warantee at that time. I just simply assumed that this was not a mechanical issue. We have had so many successes and good feedback that I have geared my mind this way.
I was reluctant to admit a mistake on our part because I know the care that we exercise to produce a quality product. Again, I am anxious to get this motor back to inspect ( I fear that I may have to reassemble most of it and then tear it down again just to learn anything from it-as it is already disassembled), and hopefully I can conclusivley derive the cause. I will keep you all posted, as this will be a learning experience for us all.
Everyone can make mistakes, I don't like to admit mistakes that aren't mine (at this point it is not conclusive per the circumstances in the last 11 pages of this thread), so I may have come off as hesitant to Don, I apologize. I told him what I will do, even after all of his negativity towards us and I hope that will ease some of his anxiety.
All the best,
TODD
08-09-2007, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by BriGuyMax
I may be a *****, but I'm honest.
The main problem is that you are still operating on the assumption that this is in fact a faulty motor before Todd has even had a chance to look at it. Sam's "theory" about bearing clearance and bore clearance doesn't hold water because there is still over 20 thousandths of clearance that are unaccounted for in his assessment. Wait until todd gets the motor and has a chance to look at it before making a conclusion.
The main problem is that you are still operating on the assumption that this is in fact a faulty motor before Todd has even had a chance to look at it. Sam's "theory" about bearing clearance and bore clearance doesn't hold water because there is still over 20 thousandths of clearance that are unaccounted for in his assessment. Wait until todd gets the motor and has a chance to look at it before making a conclusion.
08-09-2007, 04:40 PM
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I want to post my 2 cents for what its worth, and keep in mind I am not taking sides, as i like both shops/people involved in this situation.
Buying performance parts online and having people install them, then tune them can be tricky. The consumer usually thinks he is getting a good deal or saving a few bucks here or there, not saying this was the case. However, the problem of "liability" arises, this is why certain manufacturers have "authorized" and "certified" dealers/installers. This sometimes help contain any problems when one place is doing "all" of the works. The problem I see with buying a motor from person "A" and having person "B" install it, then Person "C" attempt to tune it, then ultimately person "D" pull the whole mess apart and diagnose it, is the fact there has now been 4 seperate people involved.Where does the blame now lie?
How would one expect anyone to warranty anything in this entire process? It becomes a game of finger pointing at this point, and the guy who paid to have the work done, is stuck in the middle..
This is a perfect example as to why one should purchase, and install all of their products in one shop and be loyal to that shop.
Buying performance parts online and having people install them, then tune them can be tricky. The consumer usually thinks he is getting a good deal or saving a few bucks here or there, not saying this was the case. However, the problem of "liability" arises, this is why certain manufacturers have "authorized" and "certified" dealers/installers. This sometimes help contain any problems when one place is doing "all" of the works. The problem I see with buying a motor from person "A" and having person "B" install it, then Person "C" attempt to tune it, then ultimately person "D" pull the whole mess apart and diagnose it, is the fact there has now been 4 seperate people involved.Where does the blame now lie?
How would one expect anyone to warranty anything in this entire process? It becomes a game of finger pointing at this point, and the guy who paid to have the work done, is stuck in the middle..
This is a perfect example as to why one should purchase, and install all of their products in one shop and be loyal to that shop.
08-09-2007, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by go-fast
has anyone considered the overly rich condition caused carbon knock and caused all of the problems this engine has displayed?iv'e seen sooty engines touching in places you never dreamed possible!
Last edited by g356gear; 08-09-2007 at 04:53 PM.
08-09-2007, 07:59 PM
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Bad press can always be good press, im sure theres alot of people that didnt know of you, who are now looking at your products.
IMO, you seem to be a great guy, and even though you shouldnt have warrantied his engine, you are still doing it, just to prove to people that you have great customer service skills.
Keep up the good work!
IMO, you seem to be a great guy, and even though you shouldnt have warrantied his engine, you are still doing it, just to prove to people that you have great customer service skills.
Keep up the good work!