Procharger SC pic on the Z!!
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From: The halls of Mandos
MAF sensor
"no one answered my question on why the MAF sensor is so high up!!"
If my understanding of this sensor is correct, it will get the most accurate reading of air flow and density if it is placed close to the throttle, especially if the kit is regulating pressure by venting gas. Otherwise, if no gas is vented and there are no major leaks, it wouldn't matter where this sensor is. At one end of the blower it would measure low density * high flow, and at the other end it would measure high density * low flow. The measurement would come out the same.
This kit looks impressive, if a bit pricey. That intercooler looks decent, too. I'm willing to entertain the idea that ATI has justified this cost by developing a high quality blower, in which case reliability would be very good. But they're probably just pricing according to initial demand. Cripes folks, there are economic realities at work here wherein businesses try to make a profit. Deal with it, nobody's forcing the kit on you.
If my understanding of this sensor is correct, it will get the most accurate reading of air flow and density if it is placed close to the throttle, especially if the kit is regulating pressure by venting gas. Otherwise, if no gas is vented and there are no major leaks, it wouldn't matter where this sensor is. At one end of the blower it would measure low density * high flow, and at the other end it would measure high density * low flow. The measurement would come out the same.
This kit looks impressive, if a bit pricey. That intercooler looks decent, too. I'm willing to entertain the idea that ATI has justified this cost by developing a high quality blower, in which case reliability would be very good. But they're probably just pricing according to initial demand. Cripes folks, there are economic realities at work here wherein businesses try to make a profit. Deal with it, nobody's forcing the kit on you.
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Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,052
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From: Charlotte, NC
There is a lot of conjecture here, but even with soft launches or what not, I'm not too keen on dumping $6000 + install on a kit that
A) doesn't get me into the 12s in the 1/4 mile
B) has not yet proven its realiability
and
C) is from a company with questionable warranty and customer service history.
I think I will have to go the Dr Bonz route and wait a few months to see how this comes out and compare to other offerings like the GReddy kit.... funny how Brickyard owners think alike!
A) doesn't get me into the 12s in the 1/4 mile
B) has not yet proven its realiability
and
C) is from a company with questionable warranty and customer service history.
I think I will have to go the Dr Bonz route and wait a few months to see how this comes out and compare to other offerings like the GReddy kit.... funny how Brickyard owners think alike!
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 806
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From: Gainesville, Florida
Originally posted by mcduck
There is a lot of conjecture here, but even with soft launches or what not, I'm not too keen on dumping $6000 + install on a kit that
A) doesn't get me into the 12s in the 1/4 mile
B) has not yet proven its realiability
and
C) is from a company with questionable warranty and customer service history.
I think I will have to go the Dr Bonz route and wait a few months to see how this comes out and compare to other offerings like the GReddy kit.... funny how Brickyard owners think alike!
There is a lot of conjecture here, but even with soft launches or what not, I'm not too keen on dumping $6000 + install on a kit that
A) doesn't get me into the 12s in the 1/4 mile
B) has not yet proven its realiability
and
C) is from a company with questionable warranty and customer service history.
I think I will have to go the Dr Bonz route and wait a few months to see how this comes out and compare to other offerings like the GReddy kit.... funny how Brickyard owners think alike!
Far as B, and C goes. They would definitely steer me away from spending over 6k on this kit (that is, if i had the money). If I spent that kinda money and got dicked on customor service I would be soo pissed.
Re: MAF sensor
um.. you would get very high disturbed air flow from the throttle body opening closing so often... the maf sensor is supposed to take ambient temperature readings, i.e before the blower...
and if there is a bov. its most likely on the return tubing from the intercooler back up to the throttle body.... which means there will be venting prior to the orginial placement of that maf sensor..
here's taken from
http://www.se-r.net/engine/airflow_sensor.html
regarding MAF...
"Most EFI systems around today use air mass flow in determining the mixture under given operating conditions. Typically there is also throttle position, intake manifold pressure and/or temperature, exhaust gas oxygen (EGO), etc. The advantage to a mass air flow sensor ... allows the ECU to compensate for changes in atmospheric temperature, barometric pressure, and humidity. There are a variety of other sensors that the ECU reads to regulate things like fast (cold) idle, turning up the idle when the AC is on, etc. The mass air flow (MAF) sensor signal and engine speed are the primary (maybe only) determinants of fuel injector pulse length.
Newer systems (e.g. LH-Jet, Motronic, others) use either hot-wire mass air flow sensors or thin-film MAF sensors. [edit: nissans are hot wire]
In a hot-wire sensor, intake air flows over a thin wire heated by a small electric current. The wire is kept at a constant temperature by the current. with increased air mass flow (more volume, or colder denser, air) past the sensor, convective heat transfer from the wire to the air is increased, and more current is required to regulate the temperature. The current requirement thus acts as an index. It is converted to a voltage signal which is then used with engine speed as the main (but not only) inputs determining fuel injection."
with that being read. theoretically, wouldnt you want the maf sensor AWAY from what you're changing with boost via BOV....
??
and if there is a bov. its most likely on the return tubing from the intercooler back up to the throttle body.... which means there will be venting prior to the orginial placement of that maf sensor..
here's taken from
http://www.se-r.net/engine/airflow_sensor.html
regarding MAF...
"Most EFI systems around today use air mass flow in determining the mixture under given operating conditions. Typically there is also throttle position, intake manifold pressure and/or temperature, exhaust gas oxygen (EGO), etc. The advantage to a mass air flow sensor ... allows the ECU to compensate for changes in atmospheric temperature, barometric pressure, and humidity. There are a variety of other sensors that the ECU reads to regulate things like fast (cold) idle, turning up the idle when the AC is on, etc. The mass air flow (MAF) sensor signal and engine speed are the primary (maybe only) determinants of fuel injector pulse length.
Newer systems (e.g. LH-Jet, Motronic, others) use either hot-wire mass air flow sensors or thin-film MAF sensors. [edit: nissans are hot wire]
In a hot-wire sensor, intake air flows over a thin wire heated by a small electric current. The wire is kept at a constant temperature by the current. with increased air mass flow (more volume, or colder denser, air) past the sensor, convective heat transfer from the wire to the air is increased, and more current is required to regulate the temperature. The current requirement thus acts as an index. It is converted to a voltage signal which is then used with engine speed as the main (but not only) inputs determining fuel injection."
with that being read. theoretically, wouldnt you want the maf sensor AWAY from what you're changing with boost via BOV....
??
Originally posted by Fëanor
"no one answered my question on why the MAF sensor is so high up!!"
If my understanding of this sensor is correct, it will get the most accurate reading of air flow and density if it is placed close to the throttle, especially if the kit is regulating pressure by venting gas. Otherwise, if no gas is vented and there are no major leaks, it wouldn't matter where this sensor is. At one end of the blower it would measure low density * high flow, and at the other end it would measure high density * low flow. The measurement would come out the same.
"no one answered my question on why the MAF sensor is so high up!!"
If my understanding of this sensor is correct, it will get the most accurate reading of air flow and density if it is placed close to the throttle, especially if the kit is regulating pressure by venting gas. Otherwise, if no gas is vented and there are no major leaks, it wouldn't matter where this sensor is. At one end of the blower it would measure low density * high flow, and at the other end it would measure high density * low flow. The measurement would come out the same.
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Joined: Jan 2003
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From: Ada MI
help
ok i have gotten the winzip video to download but a pop up window came up and said it could not find the right compressor. all i can do is hear the sound of it without any picture. any suggerstions?
Last edited by carfever; Jun 2, 2003 at 01:27 PM.
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 45
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From: The halls of Mandos
"with that being read. theoretically, wouldnt you want the maf sensor AWAY from what you're changing with boost via BOV...."
No...in effect the SP is merely redefining what the engine considers ambient conditions. It must measure exactly what the engine is consuming or its readings are worthless. The MAF sensor is used to adjust mixture (among other things), therefore it must know what it's mixing, be it compressed air or ambient air.
Think about it. If the sensor is prior to the blower, and a valve vents off half the volume of gas, the sensor will signal twice as much air as the engine is actually consuing. You'll run entirely too rich.
No...in effect the SP is merely redefining what the engine considers ambient conditions. It must measure exactly what the engine is consuming or its readings are worthless. The MAF sensor is used to adjust mixture (among other things), therefore it must know what it's mixing, be it compressed air or ambient air.
Think about it. If the sensor is prior to the blower, and a valve vents off half the volume of gas, the sensor will signal twice as much air as the engine is actually consuing. You'll run entirely too rich.
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 102
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From: Independence, MO.
Re: help
Originally posted by carfever
ok i have gotten the winzip video to download but a pop up window came up and said it could not find the right compressor. all i can do is hear the sound of it without any picture. any suggerstions?
ok i have gotten the winzip video to download but a pop up window came up and said it could not find the right compressor. all i can do is hear the sound of it without any picture. any suggerstions?
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 109
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From: Orange County, CA
Hum... I am not much into quarter mile times, just the trap speed since it indicates a better picture of what the car was making.
105-107 mph! Isn't that the same trap as the stock Camaro SS/Supra/E46M3s.
105-107 mph! Isn't that the same trap as the stock Camaro SS/Supra/E46M3s.
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Joined: Nov 2002
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From: NOR - CAL
105-107 mph! Isn't that the same trap as the stock Camaro SS/Supra/E46M3s
10 % of the cost....When all is said and done I expect 110 mph traps with my setup.
The Stangs out there with SC's trap around 120+ in the deep 11's as an example.
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Joined: Dec 2002
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From: Portland OR
Originally posted by MaxHax
OT but I trapped higher than that with my $650.00 N20 Kit with screwed up timing on stock tires 10 % of the cost....
When all is said and done I expect 110 mph traps with my setup.
The Stangs out there with SC's trap around 120+ in the deep 11's as an example.
OT but I trapped higher than that with my $650.00 N20 Kit with screwed up timing on stock tires
10 % of the cost....When all is said and done I expect 110 mph traps with my setup.
The Stangs out there with SC's trap around 120+ in the deep 11's as an example.
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 105
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From: Orange Beach, AL
I'm with JoeShow750; I can't think of any way to adjust boost without changing the pulley and I don't think ProCharger is just throwing different sized pulleys in with the kit. Maybe this guy is running a 4.5 psi pulley to be safe at the track.
BTW, Where is all the talk about timing. My friends and I went through hell trying to figure out the best timing on a Supercharged Civic Si.
BTW, Where is all the talk about timing. My friends and I went through hell trying to figure out the best timing on a Supercharged Civic Si.
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 362
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From: arizona
Far as B, and C goes. They would definitely steer me away from spending over 6k on this kit (that is, if i had the money). If I spent that kinda money and got dicked on customor service I would be soo pissed.
after that another 6k does not seem so bad.
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 452
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From: Phoenix, AZ
I'm with JoeShow750; I can't think of any way to adjust boost without changing the pulley and I don't think ProCharger is just throwing different sized pulleys in with the kit. Maybe this guy is running a 4.5 psi pulley to be safe at the track.
. I asked them twice about it...I guess they just don't know for sure. I'm calling ATI tomorrow to find out what the deal is...so I'm not eating until then, that way the b*llsh!t they feed me won't taste as bad.
boost
Frusr of all ATi is not giving out any specs or prices.
As for booth, The 9intial piece that wiull alter boost is the pulley sizes. Then in conjuncction wi the the fuel management system, the boost and fuel can be fine tuned. The Fuel system alone will not due the work. But is it part of the whole picture. We will have a full tech write up shortly on tuning the system.
Regard
As for booth, The 9intial piece that wiull alter boost is the pulley sizes. Then in conjuncction wi the the fuel management system, the boost and fuel can be fine tuned. The Fuel system alone will not due the work. But is it part of the whole picture. We will have a full tech write up shortly on tuning the system.
Regard
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Joined: Aug 2002
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From: Dallas
Originally posted by Fëanor
"with that being read. theoretically, wouldnt you want the maf sensor AWAY from what you're changing with boost via BOV...."
No...in effect the SP is merely redefining what the engine considers ambient conditions. It must measure exactly what the engine is consuming or its readings are worthless. The MAF sensor is used to adjust mixture (among other things), therefore it must know what it's mixing, be it compressed air or ambient air.
Think about it. If the sensor is prior to the blower, and a valve vents off half the volume of gas, the sensor will signal twice as much air as the engine is actually consuing. You'll run entirely too rich.
"with that being read. theoretically, wouldnt you want the maf sensor AWAY from what you're changing with boost via BOV...."
No...in effect the SP is merely redefining what the engine considers ambient conditions. It must measure exactly what the engine is consuming or its readings are worthless. The MAF sensor is used to adjust mixture (among other things), therefore it must know what it's mixing, be it compressed air or ambient air.
Think about it. If the sensor is prior to the blower, and a valve vents off half the volume of gas, the sensor will signal twice as much air as the engine is actually consuing. You'll run entirely too rich.
