what ems do you prefer
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From: AZ
Originally Posted by rb26ina240
at the end of the day the real credit goes to motron, and if this hardware is all its cracked up to be then everyone will be installing there firmware into these boxes
http://www.mototron.com/products/Con...e/ECUhardware/
http://www.faar-industry.com/index%20(UK).html
http://www.mototron.com/products/Con...e/ECUhardware/
http://www.faar-industry.com/index%20(UK).html
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From: USA
mototron 128
Here is a good deal .somebody should jump on this it is only $600 and it is much better then motec
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Mercu...3 70069665660
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Mercu...3 70069665660
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From: Plano TX, Queens NY
Originally Posted by VQ-TECH
Here is a good deal .somebody should jump on this it is only $600 and it is much better then motec
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Mercu...3 70069665660
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Mercu...3 70069665660
Well it all depends on what the ProEFI folks have added to the programming and what comes stock. If they are really getting boxes at or below the $600 in the link above, then that is encouraging that they may be making enough to sustain the custom development work and support after the sale (if they sell enough units).
It does beg the question why they did not declare this as a Mototron from the start and also how they will prevent others with the tuning software from just swapping in a code-compatible box at a fraction of the cost (and just transferring the programming over).
I wonder if any other aftermarket systems are rebadged Mototrons? If OEM, I wonder which cars run the various units? Having a broader base of support and tuners to go to might actually be a good thing even if the platform is different...
It does beg the question why they did not declare this as a Mototron from the start and also how they will prevent others with the tuning software from just swapping in a code-compatible box at a fraction of the cost (and just transferring the programming over).
I wonder if any other aftermarket systems are rebadged Mototrons? If OEM, I wonder which cars run the various units? Having a broader base of support and tuners to go to might actually be a good thing even if the platform is different...
Last edited by rcdash; Aug 3, 2008 at 06:55 PM.
Originally Posted by rcdash
Your definition of bashing when it comes to the ProEFI is quite liberal in that case. I simply stated facts and asked some questions.
And if you go back and look at what "my buddy" initially posted, you will see that he mentions the Haltech in the same context as the ProEFI. Did any Haltech user or developer or sponsor jump down his throat over it?
Nope.
You incited his long response - now deal with the fact that many who respect Gurgen on this board will take what he says at face value - that's now a permament part of this thread for all to read. You might not like it but others can have differing opinions and have just as much right to share them on this forum. Just because you are passionate about a product doesn't mean that product can't be improved and that all others must be inferior. I find it concerning that the same bunch of you vehemently defend any negative remark about the ProEFI as though it cannot afford any negative publicity - at all. You not only slam the poster, but you follow it up with marketing mumbo jumbo. Why are you all trying to sell it so hard?
And if you go back and look at what "my buddy" initially posted, you will see that he mentions the Haltech in the same context as the ProEFI. Did any Haltech user or developer or sponsor jump down his throat over it?
Nope.
You incited his long response - now deal with the fact that many who respect Gurgen on this board will take what he says at face value - that's now a permament part of this thread for all to read. You might not like it but others can have differing opinions and have just as much right to share them on this forum. Just because you are passionate about a product doesn't mean that product can't be improved and that all others must be inferior. I find it concerning that the same bunch of you vehemently defend any negative remark about the ProEFI as though it cannot afford any negative publicity - at all. You not only slam the poster, but you follow it up with marketing mumbo jumbo. Why are you all trying to sell it so hard?
Reading comprehension owns you.
There is nothing liberal about our definition of bashing, when not a single negative comment/remark that we have directly responded to has been based in fact. I've seen snide remarks directed at ProEFI and Jason Siebels in this thread that were not factually correct. And those of us that spoke up against this BS are now the target of your snide remarks.
We have addressed inflammatory posts that were inaccurate about ProEFI and it's specs/features. We have also addressed inflammatory posts that were personal attacks directed at Jason. We will continue to do so. Get over it. If you don't like it, go troll somewhere else.
I find it concerning that you choose to distort the truth and put a spin on what has been posted in this thread. I can appreciate and expect concerns about ProEFI, since it is a new EMS option for our platform. And questions are welcome. However, people should have their facts straight and/or have some personal experience about something before making negative comments or remarks about it. That has not happened yet in this thread.
As I said before, your involvement here is quite transparent, as is ours.
It should be obvious and no surprise to anyone why 1ZweetZ, Jorge, SnyperZ, SlideFox and myself are strong supporters of ProEFI. We have or are getting this EMS installed and/or are part of the Intense/ProEFI inner circle here in Arizona that have watched or been a part of it's development. It is equally obvious that you already have a Haltech installed and are very happy with it. So why do you care so much about ProEFI and continue to involve yourself as passionately as we do in ProEFI related threads or discussions??? I question your motives for your very active (devil's advocate) role in almost every ProEFI thread/discussion and I believe that you have been quite disingenuous. Your involvement thus far reeks of politics.
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From: AZ
Originally Posted by rb26ina240
or what they were hiding. humm 1999dollars for a 300dollar box
Interesting comment coming from one who is a proponent of Motec as well.
Last edited by 1ZweetZ; Aug 3, 2008 at 07:53 PM.
Originally Posted by RudeG_v2.0
Reading comprehension owns you.
Originally Posted by RudeG_v2.0
I've seen snide remarks directed at ProEFI and Jason Siebels in this thread that were not factually correct.
Originally Posted by RudeG_v2.0
However, people should have their facts straight and/or have some personal experience about something before making negative comments or remarks about it.
Originally Posted by RudeG_v2.0
As I said before, your involvement here is quite transparent, as is ours.
Originally Posted by RudeG_v2.0
It is equally obvious that you already have a Haltech installed and are very happy with it. So why do you care so much about ProEFI and continue to involve yourself as passionately as we do in ProEFI related threads or discussions???
Originally Posted by RudeG_v2.0
I question your motives for your very active (devil's advocate) role in almost every ProEFI thread/discussion and I believe that you have been quite disingenuous. Your involvement thus far reeks of politics.
I have tried repeatedly to steer the discussion to a more technical, more useful discussion. You persist in derailing it to serve your own agenda. Fine. It is a public forum after all. However, you should recognize that you are damaging the image of the ProEFI by supporting it with posts that are unprofessional and disrespectful.
Last edited by rcdash; Aug 3, 2008 at 08:06 PM.
Originally Posted by XKR
I feel left out ..... F-Con 
Post #188. No worries, I set the record straight 2 posts later.
Long live the FCON!
Last edited by rcdash; Aug 3, 2008 at 07:48 PM.
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Originally Posted by rcdash
You missed the post about the FCON Vpro? Ha ha - lucky you. It's apparently only good for naturally aspirated engines.
Post #188. No worries, I set the record straight 2 posts later. Long live the FCON!
Post #188. No worries, I set the record straight 2 posts later.
Long live the FCON!
Originally Posted by 1ZweetZ
The thing that steered me away from the F-Con was simple....absolutely no feature content...no nitrous control...no launch control, no boost control....nothing! Just fuel and timing.... Great if your n/a and don't want to do any racing.. but no feature content.
which was posted in response to someone, now tell me what is not true:
-does fcon have boost control? or do you need a separate HKS EBC?
-launch control? negative
-nitrous control? nope, but you can get something working as a trigger on an auxiliary(2nd) map(for fuel and timing only)
-is it only based on MAP? yes
-knock control? no it needs external unit
so tell me what he said that isnt truth?
I mean still, nothing wrong with the fcon, still gives solid tunes and has a good record against failures. But if you wanna stick to the facts tell me if any of the above is wrong. It still is a great unit and everybody knows what to expect. This isnt bashing away the fcon btw, i have respect for it, and i wouldnt say its jsut to run it n/a, works well FI if you have all the rigth accessories. Just expensive and you need a few auxiliaries to get it to perform like the haltech or proefi for example can do out the box. I am telling you i like the haltech for a lot more reasons than the fact its unlocked.
Last edited by IIQuickSilverII; Aug 3, 2008 at 09:08 PM.
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From: Arizona
Alright, this is getting pretty ridiculous. How about this... every one post what EMS they prefer, and why they like it. This way we are at least going along with what this thread is intended for. There is so much bashing going on is not even funny. A lot of it is true, and a lot of it is speculation. Unless Jason himself from ProEFI, or John from HKS, and whomever from Motec come on here to defend the product, we should all STFU.
kthxbai
kthxbai
it.
Originally Posted by IIQuickSilverII
here is the post # 188...
which was posted in response to someone, now tell me what is not true:
-does fcon have boost control? or do you need a separate HKS EBC?
No, you need to run a boost controller of your choice, or none at all (wastegate pressure) Does haltech/proefi also include a external solenoid to control boost? If not, its still an additional cost.
-launch control? negative
The Vpro does have launch control, anti-lag, and the launch control can be used to spool the turbos from a stand still, We did it on my car 2 years ago.
-nitrous control? nope, but you can get something working as a trigger on an auxiliary(2nd) map(for fuel and timing only)
How else would you control nitrous? Its pretty simple to setup, just because it isn't label "nitrous" doesn't mean it isn't there/capable.
-is it only based on MAP? yes
No, you can run the VPro off of MAP or MAF, we have done both. To use MAF on a high power car you will need an aftermarket MAF sensor.(So you don't run out of resolution on the stock one)
-knock control? no it needs external unit
Yes you correct, you need to purchase a Knock Amp for the VPro to pull timing based on knock detection, which it does beautifully by the way.(Also includes a high quality wide-band and sick display for AFR and knock count)
so tell me what he said that isnt truth?
I mean still, nothing wrong with the fcon, still gives solid tunes and has a good record against failures. But if you wanna stick to the facts tell me if any of the above is wrong. It still is a great unit and everybody knows what to expect. This isnt bashing away the fcon btw, i have respect for it, and i wouldnt say its jsut to run it n/a, works well FI if you have all the rigth accessories. Just expensive and you need a few auxiliaries to get it to perform like the haltech or proefi for example can do out the box. I am telling you i like the haltech for a lot more reasons than the fact its unlocked.
which was posted in response to someone, now tell me what is not true:
-does fcon have boost control? or do you need a separate HKS EBC?
No, you need to run a boost controller of your choice, or none at all (wastegate pressure) Does haltech/proefi also include a external solenoid to control boost? If not, its still an additional cost.
-launch control? negative
The Vpro does have launch control, anti-lag, and the launch control can be used to spool the turbos from a stand still, We did it on my car 2 years ago.
-nitrous control? nope, but you can get something working as a trigger on an auxiliary(2nd) map(for fuel and timing only)
How else would you control nitrous? Its pretty simple to setup, just because it isn't label "nitrous" doesn't mean it isn't there/capable.
-is it only based on MAP? yes
No, you can run the VPro off of MAP or MAF, we have done both. To use MAF on a high power car you will need an aftermarket MAF sensor.(So you don't run out of resolution on the stock one)
-knock control? no it needs external unit
Yes you correct, you need to purchase a Knock Amp for the VPro to pull timing based on knock detection, which it does beautifully by the way.(Also includes a high quality wide-band and sick display for AFR and knock count)
so tell me what he said that isnt truth?
I mean still, nothing wrong with the fcon, still gives solid tunes and has a good record against failures. But if you wanna stick to the facts tell me if any of the above is wrong. It still is a great unit and everybody knows what to expect. This isnt bashing away the fcon btw, i have respect for it, and i wouldnt say its jsut to run it n/a, works well FI if you have all the rigth accessories. Just expensive and you need a few auxiliaries to get it to perform like the haltech or proefi for example can do out the box. I am telling you i like the haltech for a lot more reasons than the fact its unlocked.
If I wanted a bunch of extra feautes, I would have put a MoTeC in my car, why? Because the possibilites are endless, you can define a map to do anything based on anything, useless you say? The same could be said for the features that are being stated to make other EMS's discussed in this thread superior to the VPro.
I have no problem with people running a Haltech/ProEFI box in their car, I just prefer to use something that I know works and works well. Once we get more people running Haltech and ProEFI units on their cars we will have more unbiased results.
So lets discuss this, what is it that makes one engine management system better than the other?
The amount of features it has?
Reliability?
How well it works?
How proven the specific ECU is?
Datalogging?
User Interface?
How well organzied/thought out the software is?
Cost?
The only problem I have with ECU's that are new to the market with a long laundry list of options is that a lot of those features don't work well, if they work at all. Take GReddy for example, the Emanage Ultimate was suppose to have stand alone timing control with a firm ware update, 3 years later, still no update.
No doubt these ECUs will eventually get all the bugs sorted out, and one day be a great ECU, but that takes time, sometimes years.
The only feedback that we can use to determine which ECU is the best way to go, is the feedback we recieve from unbiased consumers, which we don't have yet.
I group Haltech/ProEFI together because they are the newest engine management solutions for our cars, not for any other reason.
Heck If I didn't already have a VPro in my car, I would strongly consider either of the above for my car, once there was more data from end users.
-George
Last edited by GTM; Aug 3, 2008 at 10:00 PM.
Originally Posted by George@GTM
Is the VPro a cheap EMS? No, especially when you get the knock amp, but nothing HKS makes is cheap, but their products work and they work well. The product is also still competevily priced, $2,100 for the basic components.
If I wanted a bunch of extra feautes, I would have put a MoTeC in my car, why? Because the possibilites are endless, you can define a map to do anything based on anything, useless you say? The same could be said for the features that are being stated to make other EMS's discussed in this thread superior to the VPro.
I have no problem with people running a Haltech/ProEFI box in their car, I just prefer to use something that I know works and works well. Once we get more people running Haltech and ProEFI units on their cars we will have more unbiased results.
So lets discuss this, what is it that makes one engine management system better than the other?
The amount of features it has?
Reliability?
How well it works?
How proven the specific ECU is?
Datalogging?
User Interface?
How well organzied/thought out the software is?
Cost?
The only problem I have with ECU's that are new to the market with a long laundry list of options is that a lot of those features don't work well, if they work at all. Take GReddy for example, the Emanage Ultimate was suppose to have stand alone timing control with a firm ware update, 3 years later, still no update.
No doubt these ECUs will eventually get all the bugs sorted out, and one day be a great ECU, but that takes time, sometimes years.
The only feedback that we can use to determine which ECU is the best way to go, is the feedback we recieve from unbiased consumers, which we don't have yet.
I group Haltech/ProEFI together because they are the newest engine management solutions for our cars, not for any other reason.
Heck If I didn't already have a VPro in my car, I would strongly consider either of the above for my car, once there was more data from end users.
-George
If I wanted a bunch of extra feautes, I would have put a MoTeC in my car, why? Because the possibilites are endless, you can define a map to do anything based on anything, useless you say? The same could be said for the features that are being stated to make other EMS's discussed in this thread superior to the VPro.
I have no problem with people running a Haltech/ProEFI box in their car, I just prefer to use something that I know works and works well. Once we get more people running Haltech and ProEFI units on their cars we will have more unbiased results.
So lets discuss this, what is it that makes one engine management system better than the other?
The amount of features it has?
Reliability?
How well it works?
How proven the specific ECU is?
Datalogging?
User Interface?
How well organzied/thought out the software is?
Cost?
The only problem I have with ECU's that are new to the market with a long laundry list of options is that a lot of those features don't work well, if they work at all. Take GReddy for example, the Emanage Ultimate was suppose to have stand alone timing control with a firm ware update, 3 years later, still no update.
No doubt these ECUs will eventually get all the bugs sorted out, and one day be a great ECU, but that takes time, sometimes years.
The only feedback that we can use to determine which ECU is the best way to go, is the feedback we recieve from unbiased consumers, which we don't have yet.
I group Haltech/ProEFI together because they are the newest engine management solutions for our cars, not for any other reason.
Heck If I didn't already have a VPro in my car, I would strongly consider either of the above for my car, once there was more data from end users.
-George
Just in this thread alone there are those individuals that want an unlocked ECU that they can tune themselves. As a good example of what forms these opinions, I don't want a unit that I can mess with or that anyone else can mess with except the tuner I choose to work on my car. Heck, I don't even change my own oil or even wash my own car. The last thing I want to do is the "work" behind having a customized show/race car. I only want to enjoy the benefits of the work others do to it. That is my goal and it is in stark contrast to those that want to be able to tweak a setting or gauge the read outs, etc, etc, etc.
Oh, and as far as feedback from unbiased Pro-EFI users, I will definitely be providing that feedback shortly. I have a mechanical issue to resolve before I do give any feedback, since it would be unfair to make any judgment when I have had a bad injector and the wrong torque converter.
Stay tuned for my feedback. It will be fair, honest, and unbiased. I have no reason to spin my experiences one direction nor the other. I have no experience with other ECU's and my car was completely changed all at once, so my feedback may be a bit raw and uneducated, but I will give the feedback in the form of what I am experiencing as the driver, owner, and customer.
Originally Posted by George@GTM
Is the VPro a cheap EMS? No, especially when you get the knock amp, but nothing HKS makes is cheap, but their products work and they work well. The product is also still competevily priced, $2,100 for the basic components.
If I wanted a bunch of extra feautes, I would have put a MoTeC in my car, why? Because the possibilites are endless, you can define a map to do anything based on anything, useless you say? The same could be said for the features that are being stated to make other EMS's discussed in this thread superior to the VPro.
I have no problem with people running a Haltech/ProEFI box in their car, I just prefer to use something that I know works and works well. Once we get more people running Haltech and ProEFI units on their cars we will have more unbiased results.
So lets discuss this, what is it that makes one engine management system better than the other?
The amount of features it has?
Reliability?
How well it works?
How proven the specific ECU is?
Datalogging?
User Interface?
How well organzied/thought out the software is?
Cost?
The only problem I have with ECU's that are new to the market with a long laundry list of options is that a lot of those features don't work well, if they work at all. Take GReddy for example, the Emanage Ultimate was suppose to have stand alone timing control with a firm ware update, 3 years later, still no update.
No doubt these ECUs will eventually get all the bugs sorted out, and one day be a great ECU, but that takes time, sometimes years.
The only feedback that we can use to determine which ECU is the best way to go, is the feedback we receive from unbiased consumers, which we don't have yet.
I group Haltech/ProEFI together because they are the newest engine management solutions for our cars, not for any other reason.
Heck If I didn't already have a VPro in my car, I would strongly consider either of the above for my car, once there was more data from end users.
-George
If I wanted a bunch of extra feautes, I would have put a MoTeC in my car, why? Because the possibilites are endless, you can define a map to do anything based on anything, useless you say? The same could be said for the features that are being stated to make other EMS's discussed in this thread superior to the VPro.
I have no problem with people running a Haltech/ProEFI box in their car, I just prefer to use something that I know works and works well. Once we get more people running Haltech and ProEFI units on their cars we will have more unbiased results.
So lets discuss this, what is it that makes one engine management system better than the other?
The amount of features it has?
Reliability?
How well it works?
How proven the specific ECU is?
Datalogging?
User Interface?
How well organzied/thought out the software is?
Cost?
The only problem I have with ECU's that are new to the market with a long laundry list of options is that a lot of those features don't work well, if they work at all. Take GReddy for example, the Emanage Ultimate was suppose to have stand alone timing control with a firm ware update, 3 years later, still no update.
No doubt these ECUs will eventually get all the bugs sorted out, and one day be a great ECU, but that takes time, sometimes years.
The only feedback that we can use to determine which ECU is the best way to go, is the feedback we receive from unbiased consumers, which we don't have yet.
I group Haltech/ProEFI together because they are the newest engine management solutions for our cars, not for any other reason.
Heck If I didn't already have a VPro in my car, I would strongly consider either of the above for my car, once there was more data from end users.
-George
I thought there already was unbiased feedback from a unbiased consumer
Alot of posts in this thread seem to originate mainly from Arizona(PROEFI Camp
)and others are coming from people that are getting it, got it but have yet to be installed or do not have enough seat time. I suggest leaving the experience talk to those that have it.
If you haven't had any experience with at least 2 different EMS(3 if you want to consider your OEM EMS) for a minimum of 6 months through different type of conditions, stop posting in this thread.
Not bashing or anything but comparison from personal experience between stock-piggyback-standalone gives off more credibility than people sprouting things that have been told to them in their ear by either Tuner or Manufacturer.
Last edited by Glex25; Aug 3, 2008 at 10:47 PM.
