Did your Mototron/Pro-Efi tell you that you had a bad torque convertor and injector, it should have been able to compensate its a learning computer right
just kidding

 

+1

Fanboyism at its very core

 

I would like to see a honest real world comparison between the haltech,fcon, and the proefi, I have my suspicions on which is better but dont actually know. It seems like some ecu's get all the attention and others equally as good get non... I will say one thing, I love aem ems and if there was a pnp option in the past that did cam timing I would have been all over it! Think about it, you could add an external idle air motor if you wanted to fine tune your idle with out a reflash, thats just one example of the geeky things you can do with a aem. But I get a feeling this community doesn't approve of the aem, is it the glichy software, or the fact that it truly isnt a pnp?

 

its not that its not approved.. it never really got a chance.. not enough customers had it to provide prositive feedback.. all the others have.. personally i can only talk about the Stock ECU, Greddy Emanage Blue, UTEC and F-Con .. because all of them i have had more than 3000 miles seat time with..

The UTEC probably did more behind the scene than the Emanage.. but from an End User Standpoint the Emanage would have been better in my opinion.. which leaves the question George asked.. what makes a good EMS(my version the end user)?

- is it how smooth your car feels like stock?
- is it cost effective?

there are so many variables out there.. which on an end user standpoint might not be correct.. the E-Manage Blue is perfect in those situations.. but we all know behind the scenes its a motor waiting to blow apart..

 

That's just it, you can't do any sort of real world comparison, as they all require interaction of a person to make them work. In other words, all you're going to get is personal opinion (some of it misinformed), as you can clearly see from this thread.

 

Jorge, just to clarify (as pointed out in post 190), the FCON does have launch control according to Julian at MRC since he claims he broke his oil pump using it:

https://my350z.com/forum/4539073-post4.html

But don't worry, I won't jump down your throat or call you names for spreading misinformation. I can understand not knowing the details about the FCON since I haven't seen an official spec/feature list posted anywhere. That is one of my gripes about the FCON and something that this thread could be useful for (identifying documented and undocumented features of the various EMS on the market). I personally don't think any consumer would care that the FCON has some features off loaded onto separate components, as long as they integrate seamlessly, which they do. The price factor is there, but you cannot discount the feature set. Though HKS doesn't really advertise it, the feature set is apparently quite robust.

 

This is my point of view EXACTLY!

The best feedback in my opinion is going to come from someone who is trying to compare how the car operates compared to stock. I had plenty of modified cars in the past, and you always are willing to give up something or think you have to give up something when modifying a car. While this is sometimes the case (big cams and idle quality for example), it has in the past been "accepted" whether or not it really is a true by product of the mods, or just short comings in either tuning, or lack of controlability from the engine management of choice. I DO know what a modern stock car should run and drive like, and what my feedback is based upon.

 

So if someone writes a book on a Mead notebook, I guess the book is a Mead book, not the authors.... Get real!

 

Very true. Perhaps if you trust your tuner implicitly, it doesn't matter, and you can rely on your end user experience. It's a fact that some tuners are more experienced than others though and the quality of the tune may vary (no fault of the equipment). So how does the end user validate their trust in the tune? And how does the equipment facilitate that validation? George is spoiled because he never has to worry about the quality of the tune he's running!

 

I talked with ProEFI about the traction control, and Launch control, while it is pretty involved, I try to list what I remember on how it works.

You have a few different possibilities...First, the Launch control and traction control are two COMPLETELY different strategies.

Launch Control can either be based upon Launch time or vehicle speed. It controls engine rpm based upon a table that allows either a maximum rpm against vehicle speed, or time and or a timing retard against speed or time. Boost control would be set up the same way...against speed or time. The timer starts when the two step is released.

Traction control can be set up a number of different ways, Vehicle Speed based, Gear based engine acceleration, Driveshaft speed against time, and Differential Wheel speed. All of these tables are based upon a limit table that goes in to timing retard, then a cut when the limit is exceeded by a certain amount. The Differential wheel speed (preferred method for 2 wheel drive vehicles), has from what I understand to be some very unique capabilities. There is a drag race mode which allows a changing amount of slip allowed against vehicle speed. Which makes sense because with a given slip amount (say 10%) you could never launch the car at the track, you would never get into power (clutch engaged, 10mph,...maybe 2000rpm.. would be like launching with the VDC on).

ProEFI has been testing these different launch/traction control strategies on a customers supra, and I have been at the track when they were doing some testing on that car. On a Crappy track, they were CONSISTANTLY pulling the front tires and carrying them on a 6spd Supra with a GT47/88, and I'm talking like 6 to 10 inches off the ground and for a car and a half. Now I don't know much about the Motec traction control, but it has been stated that it is "unparalelled". I have yet to see any of the multiple 6spd supras running that ECU to do what I have seen the ProEFI do, and I know for sure that Titan is using the Moted traction control on their 6spd Supra.

If I got anything wrong on the ProEFI T/C and Launch control, maybe Intense could jump in, but I took pretty good notes when I had the conversation.

 

They can only do that if they educate themselves enough about their EMS and know what they're looking at, so they can to go into the (logs, maps, and various settings) to validate for themselves.

Otherwise, it's a total trust thing, with the end-user holding the $$$ bag is something goes wrong... As we've seen time and again.

I prefer to be self educated about my EMS so I don't have to play the nut-hugging sac-swinging blind-trust game.

 

This is one of the most accurate posts I have seen anyone post yet! THANK YOU!

This should be a concern of everyones. I guess I am lucky in the fact that ProEFI, and Intense are local to me! However, I may not always live here in AZ. So what if I do move away? The adaptive learning, and fault management were HUGE selling points to me. If I move to Denver (which is a possibility ) The adaptive learning is there for me, just like it was when the car was stock!

 

Or, maybe the logical explanation is..... ProEFI's R&D/Headquarters is in AZ. So AZ owners are more likely to have it first due to local support. In the Supra community, I believe there is atleast 2 or 3 dozen Supra's running the ProEFI. In the USA and in Canada, and I think there is even one guy in the UK that has one. Most of those cars are coming out of Chicago, Florida, and Oregon. So.... Are those ProEFI camps as well?

 

Even that will only get you so far... how would you know the difference between a tuning issue, and a software issue? Say for example there is a hesitiation in the car. That hesitation is definately there, which means the engine is NOT happy. The log will certainly show this, either the O2 will indicate lean or rich, timing may be jumping around due to the hesitation...how would you know if it was the tuners fault, or something that isn't being calculated properly in the software? One persons perspective of a flawless running car is NOT the same as onethers. I was at a car show one time, and a guy had a turbo'd Honda..pretty nicely done. We were talking about his car for a bit and he swore up and down the car ran perfectly. Later on when everyone cleared out we went for a spin... the car had more hesitations then Mel Tillis trying to give a speach. It is a VERY hard thing to overcome, and should not be taken lightly.

 

Excellent point!

 

That's interesting - thanks. With the front tires off the ground, wouldn't that indicate infinite slip though since the front tires don't move? The computer would think the car is doing a burn out. Does it control boost also or just timing? Having both would be nice but I'm not sure it's necessary or which is more effective at moderate boost levels (under 20 psi). I'd like to know what it took to get consistent traction (tracking front vs rear wheel spin, also left vs right, both? are maps cumulative so you can affect multiple parameters?). Perhaps that is proprietary. It takes a lot of work to fine tune so I wouldn't be surprised if the info cannot be shared. Just curious if someone knows and would like to discuss.

Do all of you with early units get traction control off the bat or do you have to go back to have that dialed in?

I'll have to probably wait for the 32 input/output box of the Haltech to do all the things I want to do with the unit, but I appreciate the sharing of concepts so I can get my wish list in now.

 

The adaptive learning is also placing your faith in someone else's coding. That's the norm actually and not unreasonable - as long as it works and doesn't run into situations that weren't conceived of during R&D. I personally like data logging and I like the way Haltech can export data and e-mail it around for viewing (easily but NOT automatically).

However, if the ProEFI has a CAN guage or triggers a CEL that indicates that the car is all of a sudden operating out-of-spec (e.g. knocking), then perhaps that is sufficient for most users. It would be nice though if an EMS could go a step further and just e-mail a data dump right to your tuner if it ever felt the need! Now that would be intelligent. And there's an application for wireless telemetry for the masses. Imagine getting a call from your tuner out of the blue while you're at the drag strip asking you why your coolant is running hot or why the ECU is pulling so much timing...


What if you don't ever feel anything "wrong" with the car? Then while your cruising, your engine all of a sudden blows? It has happened before many times. No advance warning of a failure. No warning of a faulty tune. Sometimes data logging is the only way to truly validate that everything is within spec. Now if you anticipate all of the fault conditions and throw up a red flag, that's even better. And it sounds like implementations of the ProEFI, like what SnyperZ has planned, will be pretty robust in this regard. If you don't have feedback from every relevant sensor and CAN channel, then it's hard to guarantee 100% fool proof operation.

 

i am sure if you have a laptop there you can long the data from the proefi...
noticed of this from their website http://www.proefi.com/productlist_pro24logger.php (remember: who pays retail?)

i dunno if there is something else that can be done. I am sure if there is a USB connectivity to the ems then there are plenty of options on devices you can use to collect data with that connectivity. Just a matter of code writing, user demand, etc...


btw here is a video of the run from saad that you asn 1zweetz are talking about:


http://www.proefi.com/images/proefis...028.97@154.mpg (save as)

 

now that gas is at an all time high.. business must be booming for Saad Saad