Longevity of full builds, the good the bad
01-04-2011, 09:15 PM
#302
^From the oil reports on this forum, royal purple isn't a good choice either.
(Just from what i read) So take this as a grain of salt.
https://my350z.com/forum/engine-and-...-and-info.html
(Just from what i read) So take this as a grain of salt.
https://my350z.com/forum/engine-and-...-and-info.html
03-30-2011, 02:50 PM
#303
i know no one has posted here for a couple months but something i happened to notice when looking at vinny tens site is they use 1/2 inch h11 head studs not 1/2 arp 2000's. quick google search shows that 1/2 inch h11 headstud torque on other applications is 170 lbs alot more then the 90-95 lbs people torque l19's down to. not sure if you could do that on a vq thats been redrilled for the bigger studs but its food for thought. was reading through and noticed some people questioning why no real reports on vtr's stuff *shrug* they are quite a bit more epensive then everyone elses price though >.<
Last edited by jerryd87; 03-30-2011 at 03:04 PM.
03-30-2011, 09:01 PM
#304
i also notice that acl has bearings that include an extra .001 clearance for oil film did anyone that spun bearings use these? dosnt seem like theres very many bearing choices for the vq, the small blocks of old have several choice available for a reason. based on the diameter of the crank bearing surfaces the clearance on the bearings should be between .0018 and .0024. being as turbos impart much higher heat i would definitely go towards the loose side and since it seems above 550hp seems to run into problems i would prob run at a min .0022 clearance and mayby run .0026 however i cant find stock specs anywhere so i have no idea what .001 more then stock would be. granted the larger clearance requires a thicker oil.
03-31-2011, 02:21 PM
#305
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I used mobil 1 15-50 on two (2) 4g63 engines. (Those are DSM engines for all you children) BOTH had spun bearings as cause of engine failure. Both were near complete losses...
Using castrol syntec 5-30 per factory specs. 32K on Z and feels like it's still brand new...
Just my 2 cents
Using castrol syntec 5-30 per factory specs. 32K on Z and feels like it's still brand new...
Just my 2 cents
you do know that castrol is owned by exxon/mobil........and the only thing thats different between mobil 1 and castrol syntec is the bottle
Last edited by nomyth46; 03-31-2011 at 02:22 PM.
04-04-2011, 11:05 PM
#309
been doing some research lately mainly on supra and diesel forums(they seem to be the first ones to come up when its related to high boost and high hp =/) it seems that overheating problems are common on other platforms using high boost, even ones that do not have sleeves. heads lift and superheat the coolant with combustion gases, seems the main source of problems is arp head studs. according to what ive found even the l19 head studs are designed to stretch some when torqued down, high power levels allow further stretching and eventually the studs stretch enough to allow headlift. fix it seems is to use h11 tool steel head studs, same material used in piston wrist pins the only difference being that h11 does not stretch at all and is why the torque specs on them is higher. tensile strength is similar seems main difference is stretch vs non stretch designed in.
04-05-2011, 04:28 AM
#310
been doing some research lately mainly on supra and diesel forums(they seem to be the first ones to come up when its related to high boost and high hp =/) it seems that overheating problems are common on other platforms using high boost, even ones that do not have sleeves. heads lift and superheat the coolant with combustion gases, seems the main source of problems is arp head studs. according to what ive found even the l19 head studs are designed to stretch some when torqued down, high power levels allow further stretching and eventually the studs stretch enough to allow headlift. fix it seems is to use h11 tool steel head studs, same material used in piston wrist pins the only difference being that h11 does not stretch at all and is why the torque specs on them is higher. tensile strength is similar seems main difference is stretch vs non stretch designed in.
04-05-2011, 08:48 AM
#312
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the L19 ARP studs are their upgraded strength studs and should be used for any VQ build. their standard off-the-shelf studs seem to stretch at higher hp levels. we had one lift the heads at 900wheelhp using standard ARPs, so we installed the L19s. 1000+ wheel, and it's still fine.
04-05-2011, 09:14 AM
#313
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the L19 ARP studs are their upgraded strength studs and should be used for any VQ build. their standard off-the-shelf studs seem to stretch at higher hp levels. we had one lift the heads at 900wheelhp using standard ARPs, so we installed the L19s. 1000+ wheel, and it's still fine.
04-05-2011, 09:28 AM
#314
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from my understanding, they werent available at the time of the build and there were time crunches in place. i built the motor with the parts that were supplied to me.
not blaming you, but i think that regular DE L19s will work on an HR, since we can run OE HR headstuds as an upgrade for mild boost.
04-05-2011, 09:51 AM
#317
according to arp the l19s are designed to stretch as well, h11 head studs are available from a1 technology's, also ill have to find the numbers but cosworth also offers h11 head studs but they are probably just rebranded a1 tech head studs just like there standard ones are just rebranded arp2000's. its not that people are having immediate failures with the arp studs, just driven hard over time they allow headlift and the suspected cause is that arp's are designed to stretch. the failures are with l19 head studs as well, seems in diesel applications l19s are the standard and h11 is the upgrade for big power, some supra guys seem to be running them as well. looking into my ecotec book(it would be the closest to our platform from other platforms, 4 bolts per cylinder, open deck) gm says arp for standard builds, arp l19 for 300-600hp, a1 h11 head studs for 600-900, and anything above that 1/2 inch h11 unibolts(which isnt possible on our platform).
i already mentioned about possibly using larger clearances bearings and thicker oil, however if these engines are overheating at high power it could be the cause for additional expansion causing the bearings to drag at 600hp if the engine is seeing temps of 240+ expansion would easily cut .001 inch off clearance(.0005 expansion on each side). to compare it only takes 10 ft lbs extra torque on main caps to reach this same reduction. under .001 clearance the bearings will drag and tear the bearings apart, i found this out on my first engine i built when the machine shop told me the wrong torque spec for small block chevy main caps, torqued it down and the rotating assembly wouldnt budge wih no heads on the engine. that was just a simple rebuild so i dint check clearances till it wouldnt budge, checked em after that and clearance was .0007, bought a rebuild book with specs in it and torque was 65 ft lbs. instead of the 75 ft lbs. they told me, nothing changed but the lighter torque put me at .0018 clearance. as you can imagine from that it dosnt take alot to cause the bearing to catch, if the clearances being used is tight then the slighest overheating will cause issues. thats why so many options are available for various small blocks and is why i suggested mayby using the .001 extra oil clearance bearings with thicker oil =/
im taking my engine down to hal in july/august when im home for r&r and i might have him install h11 headstuds just to see if it helps will just have to make sure we get torque right since they require higher torque due to no stretch. i will say though apparently the l19s have better rust protection
edit: cosworth ones claim to be h11 but are black like l19s and made by arp =/ http://thmotorsports.com/cosworth/co...PR7420-19-2001 all the h11 ive seen is silver
this shows em as silver so seems like they are just general pictures http://www.vividracing.com/catalog/p...ducts_id=19101
contacted a1 and the guy i talked to dint know if they made studs for the vq platform, which means they prob dont =/ so seems like only options would be cosworth or get all the vendors to purchase some from a1 since i cant see anyone wanting to spend over 1k on headstuds =( i will say the h11 on suburus and evos are about 100 bucks cheaper then arp l19's which i would say isnt a bad deal if they are stronger
i did find one post saying l19 and h11 are the same thing however it is one post vs several that say different so take it for what you will =/
i already mentioned about possibly using larger clearances bearings and thicker oil, however if these engines are overheating at high power it could be the cause for additional expansion causing the bearings to drag at 600hp if the engine is seeing temps of 240+ expansion would easily cut .001 inch off clearance(.0005 expansion on each side). to compare it only takes 10 ft lbs extra torque on main caps to reach this same reduction. under .001 clearance the bearings will drag and tear the bearings apart, i found this out on my first engine i built when the machine shop told me the wrong torque spec for small block chevy main caps, torqued it down and the rotating assembly wouldnt budge wih no heads on the engine. that was just a simple rebuild so i dint check clearances till it wouldnt budge, checked em after that and clearance was .0007, bought a rebuild book with specs in it and torque was 65 ft lbs. instead of the 75 ft lbs. they told me, nothing changed but the lighter torque put me at .0018 clearance. as you can imagine from that it dosnt take alot to cause the bearing to catch, if the clearances being used is tight then the slighest overheating will cause issues. thats why so many options are available for various small blocks and is why i suggested mayby using the .001 extra oil clearance bearings with thicker oil =/
im taking my engine down to hal in july/august when im home for r&r and i might have him install h11 headstuds just to see if it helps will just have to make sure we get torque right since they require higher torque due to no stretch. i will say though apparently the l19s have better rust protection
edit: cosworth ones claim to be h11 but are black like l19s and made by arp =/ http://thmotorsports.com/cosworth/co...PR7420-19-2001 all the h11 ive seen is silver
this shows em as silver so seems like they are just general pictures http://www.vividracing.com/catalog/p...ducts_id=19101
contacted a1 and the guy i talked to dint know if they made studs for the vq platform, which means they prob dont =/ so seems like only options would be cosworth or get all the vendors to purchase some from a1 since i cant see anyone wanting to spend over 1k on headstuds =( i will say the h11 on suburus and evos are about 100 bucks cheaper then arp l19's which i would say isnt a bad deal if they are stronger
i did find one post saying l19 and h11 are the same thing however it is one post vs several that say different so take it for what you will =/
Last edited by jerryd87; 04-05-2011 at 02:44 PM.
04-05-2011, 03:23 PM
#319
according to arp the l19s are designed to stretch as well, h11 head studs are available from a1 technology's, also ill have to find the numbers but cosworth also offers h11 head studs but they are probably just rebranded a1 tech head studs just like there standard ones are just rebranded arp2000's. its not that people are having immediate failures with the arp studs, just driven hard over time they allow headlift and the suspected cause is that arp's are designed to stretch. the failures are with l19 head studs as well, seems in diesel applications l19s are the standard and h11 is the upgrade for big power, some supra guys seem to be running them as well. looking into my ecotec book(it would be the closest to our platform from other platforms, 4 bolts per cylinder, open deck) gm says arp for standard builds, arp l19 for 300-600hp, a1 h11 head studs for 600-900, and anything above that 1/2 inch h11 unibolts(which isnt possible on our platform).
i already mentioned about possibly using larger clearances bearings and thicker oil, however if these engines are overheating at high power it could be the cause for additional expansion causing the bearings to drag at 600hp if the engine is seeing temps of 240+ expansion would easily cut .001 inch off clearance(.0005 expansion on each side). to compare it only takes 10 ft lbs extra torque on main caps to reach this same reduction. under .001 clearance the bearings will drag and tear the bearings apart, i found this out on my first engine i built when the machine shop told me the wrong torque spec for small block chevy main caps, torqued it down and the rotating assembly wouldnt budge wih no heads on the engine. that was just a simple rebuild so i dint check clearances till it wouldnt budge, checked em after that and clearance was .0007, bought a rebuild book with specs in it and torque was 65 ft lbs. instead of the 75 ft lbs. they told me, nothing changed but the lighter torque put me at .0018 clearance. as you can imagine from that it dosnt take alot to cause the bearing to catch, if the clearances being used is tight then the slighest overheating will cause issues. thats why so many options are available for various small blocks and is why i suggested mayby using the .001 extra oil clearance bearings with thicker oil =/
im taking my engine down to hal in july/august when im home for r&r and i might have him install h11 headstuds just to see if it helps will just have to make sure we get torque right since they require higher torque due to no stretch. i will say though apparently the l19s have better rust protection
edit: cosworth ones claim to be h11 but are black like l19s and made by arp =/ http://thmotorsports.com/cosworth/co...PR7420-19-2001 all the h11 ive seen is silver
this shows em as silver so seems like they are just general pictures http://www.vividracing.com/catalog/p...ducts_id=19101
contacted a1 and the guy i talked to dint know if they made studs for the vq platform, which means they prob dont =/ so seems like only options would be cosworth or get all the vendors to purchase some from a1 since i cant see anyone wanting to spend over 1k on headstuds =( i will say the h11 on suburus and evos are about 100 bucks cheaper then arp l19's which i would say isnt a bad deal if they are stronger i did find one post saying l19 and h11 are the same thing however it is one post vs several that say different so take it for what you will =/
i already mentioned about possibly using larger clearances bearings and thicker oil, however if these engines are overheating at high power it could be the cause for additional expansion causing the bearings to drag at 600hp if the engine is seeing temps of 240+ expansion would easily cut .001 inch off clearance(.0005 expansion on each side). to compare it only takes 10 ft lbs extra torque on main caps to reach this same reduction. under .001 clearance the bearings will drag and tear the bearings apart, i found this out on my first engine i built when the machine shop told me the wrong torque spec for small block chevy main caps, torqued it down and the rotating assembly wouldnt budge wih no heads on the engine. that was just a simple rebuild so i dint check clearances till it wouldnt budge, checked em after that and clearance was .0007, bought a rebuild book with specs in it and torque was 65 ft lbs. instead of the 75 ft lbs. they told me, nothing changed but the lighter torque put me at .0018 clearance. as you can imagine from that it dosnt take alot to cause the bearing to catch, if the clearances being used is tight then the slighest overheating will cause issues. thats why so many options are available for various small blocks and is why i suggested mayby using the .001 extra oil clearance bearings with thicker oil =/
im taking my engine down to hal in july/august when im home for r&r and i might have him install h11 headstuds just to see if it helps will just have to make sure we get torque right since they require higher torque due to no stretch. i will say though apparently the l19s have better rust protection
edit: cosworth ones claim to be h11 but are black like l19s and made by arp =/ http://thmotorsports.com/cosworth/co...PR7420-19-2001 all the h11 ive seen is silver
this shows em as silver so seems like they are just general pictures http://www.vividracing.com/catalog/p...ducts_id=19101
contacted a1 and the guy i talked to dint know if they made studs for the vq platform, which means they prob dont =/ so seems like only options would be cosworth or get all the vendors to purchase some from a1 since i cant see anyone wanting to spend over 1k on headstuds =( i will say the h11 on suburus and evos are about 100 bucks cheaper then arp l19's which i would say isnt a bad deal if they are stronger
i did find one post saying l19 and h11 are the same thing however it is one post vs several that say different so take it for what you will =/
09-29-2012, 11:14 PM
#320
Taint no such thing as a material that does stretch. Its called modulus of elasticity, lookk dat shiz up.
according to arp the l19s are designed to stretch as well, h11 head studs are available from a1 technology's, also ill have to find the numbers but cosworth also offers h11 head studs but they are probably just rebranded a1 tech head studs just like there standard ones are just rebranded arp2000's. its not that people are having immediate failures with the arp studs, just driven hard over time they allow headlift and the suspected cause is that arp's are designed to stretch. the failures are with l19 head studs as well, seems in diesel applications l19s are the standard and h11 is the upgrade for big power, some supra guys seem to be running them as well. looking into my ecotec book(it would be the closest to our platform from other platforms, 4 bolts per cylinder, open deck) gm says arp for standard builds, arp l19 for 300-600hp, a1 h11 head studs for 600-900, and anything above that 1/2 inch h11 unibolts(which isnt possible on our platform).
i already mentioned about possibly using larger clearances bearings and thicker oil, however if these engines are overheating at high power it could be the cause for additional expansion causing the bearings to drag at 600hp if the engine is seeing temps of 240+ expansion would easily cut .001 inch off clearance(.0005 expansion on each side). to compare it only takes 10 ft lbs extra torque on main caps to reach this same reduction. under .001 clearance the bearings will drag and tear the bearings apart, i found this out on my first engine i built when the machine shop told me the wrong torque spec for small block chevy main caps, torqued it down and the rotating assembly wouldnt budge wih no heads on the engine. that was just a simple rebuild so i dint check clearances till it wouldnt budge, checked em after that and clearance was .0007, bought a rebuild book with specs in it and torque was 65 ft lbs. instead of the 75 ft lbs. they told me, nothing changed but the lighter torque put me at .0018 clearance. as you can imagine from that it dosnt take alot to cause the bearing to catch, if the clearances being used is tight then the slighest overheating will cause issues. thats why so many options are available for various small blocks and is why i suggested mayby using the .001 extra oil clearance bearings with thicker oil =/
im taking my engine down to hal in july/august when im home for r&r and i might have him install h11 headstuds just to see if it helps will just have to make sure we get torque right since they require higher torque due to no stretch. i will say though apparently the l19s have better rust protection
edit: cosworth ones claim to be h11 but are black like l19s and made by arp =/ http://thmotorsports.com/cosworth/co...PR7420-19-2001 all the h11 ive seen is silver
this shows em as silver so seems like they are just general pictures http://www.vividracing.com/catalog/p...ducts_id=19101
contacted a1 and the guy i talked to dint know if they made studs for the vq platform, which means they prob dont =/ so seems like only options would be cosworth or get all the vendors to purchase some from a1 since i cant see anyone wanting to spend over 1k on headstuds =( i will say the h11 on suburus and evos are about 100 bucks cheaper then arp l19's which i would say isnt a bad deal if they are stronger i did find one post saying l19 and h11 are the same thing however it is one post vs several that say different so take it for what you will =/
i already mentioned about possibly using larger clearances bearings and thicker oil, however if these engines are overheating at high power it could be the cause for additional expansion causing the bearings to drag at 600hp if the engine is seeing temps of 240+ expansion would easily cut .001 inch off clearance(.0005 expansion on each side). to compare it only takes 10 ft lbs extra torque on main caps to reach this same reduction. under .001 clearance the bearings will drag and tear the bearings apart, i found this out on my first engine i built when the machine shop told me the wrong torque spec for small block chevy main caps, torqued it down and the rotating assembly wouldnt budge wih no heads on the engine. that was just a simple rebuild so i dint check clearances till it wouldnt budge, checked em after that and clearance was .0007, bought a rebuild book with specs in it and torque was 65 ft lbs. instead of the 75 ft lbs. they told me, nothing changed but the lighter torque put me at .0018 clearance. as you can imagine from that it dosnt take alot to cause the bearing to catch, if the clearances being used is tight then the slighest overheating will cause issues. thats why so many options are available for various small blocks and is why i suggested mayby using the .001 extra oil clearance bearings with thicker oil =/
im taking my engine down to hal in july/august when im home for r&r and i might have him install h11 headstuds just to see if it helps will just have to make sure we get torque right since they require higher torque due to no stretch. i will say though apparently the l19s have better rust protection
edit: cosworth ones claim to be h11 but are black like l19s and made by arp =/ http://thmotorsports.com/cosworth/co...PR7420-19-2001 all the h11 ive seen is silver
this shows em as silver so seems like they are just general pictures http://www.vividracing.com/catalog/p...ducts_id=19101
contacted a1 and the guy i talked to dint know if they made studs for the vq platform, which means they prob dont =/ so seems like only options would be cosworth or get all the vendors to purchase some from a1 since i cant see anyone wanting to spend over 1k on headstuds =( i will say the h11 on suburus and evos are about 100 bucks cheaper then arp l19's which i would say isnt a bad deal if they are stronger
i did find one post saying l19 and h11 are the same thing however it is one post vs several that say different so take it for what you will =/