GolfinZ

iTrader: (6)

But maybe if you post the question on the proefi website Jason HIMSELF will answer them. Then copy and paste the answers over here...

old school 280

rcdash

You must have misunderstood my question. If he understands how a factory ECM works, then he will understand how the adaptive learning on the Pro EFI works.

1ZweetZ

Well there's the reason there is little users and information...everything starts from nothing... the day this forum opened and even weeks or months later you could say the same thing.


It doesn't appear you really want answers...if you did, you would have asked the questions somewhere that you could get responses directly from the people who know for sure. I PM'd the admin on ProEFI forums, and this is what I got back.

"Adaptive Learning IS NOTHING LIKE feedback control. If you start your car in the dead of winter with the oil nearly frozen, the feedback loop for your idle control may get you there....eventually, but the car will stall continuously, and run poorly. With adaptive learning, the computer looks at the error, and plugs those values into the appropriate maps, thus eliminating the error. DO NOT confuse this with feedback control. Feedback control runs pid loops to trim until the error is gone, but as soon as you say...hit the throttle and return to that point...the feedback loop has to start ALL OVER again. With adaptive learning that process is ELIMINATED. Adaptive learning is derived from feedback control...they are in NO way the same or even related."

So in short, feedback will ALWAYS have an error that needs corrected, ADAPTIVE eliminates errors....completely. Making the drivability SP described. Now I don't know about you guys, but I sure like the way modern vehicles drive, so if I don't have to give that up....why would I?

rcdash

iTrader: (18)

Oh really? I think you have a nasty habit of being antagonistic. Pick on someone else. You've already been warned about posting off topic.

Yes, I have read the same explanation multiple times - and I don't buy it on technical merit - not yet. If the output is the same, regardless of what algorithm is used to achieve that output, then what does it matter and why is one better than the other?

If your correction maps are spot on, then adaptive tuning offers no advantage. I posted a much more technically credible explanation up above and I'd rather someone with their own thoughts or the technical expertise to discuss the point respond, rather than regurgitating a canned response. No offense.

And I could go post over on the proEFI site, but I'd rather post here for two reasons:

1. This thread is here - if I post over there, the my350z community (the intended market for this product) will likely not benefit from the response, only I will. I could copy and paste between forums, but I choose not to and am happy to wait for a response or a discussion regarding questions that are on topic and relevant to this platform.

2. If the product is announced here - I see no reason why questions regarding support of the product cannot be supported here. If Jason does not wish to respond because he is too busy, well then that demonstrates an inability to support the intended market. I don't believe that is the case since we are fortunate to have experts from Intense and SP supporting this product. Both have been very forthcoming with good, solid data and excellent support on this thread. I appreciate their willingness to explore this product with enthusiasts and shop owners trying to grasp the merits of a relatively new technology for this platform.


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EDIT: Further "discussion" (subsequent posts) in response to 1ZweetZ deleted as I don't think they were helpful.

IIQuickSilverII

iTrader: (13)

+1 on friendly competition and development of the community

I just wan to add that for example today here the temp changed from 101 down to 65 as it is now... quite a bit of change for a day... i don't doubt there are many benefits to adaptive learning. Thats not saying that other methods are not good, but just to point out that this methods allows the proefi to "evolve" the tune for each driver to their specific driving habits, location etc..

1ZweetZ

FIrst, this IS on topic, second, you keep asking the same questions and not listening to the answers, apparently becuase you aren't understanding them. LIke your response that "if" your corrections are "spot on". The point here is that they NEVER will be under ALL conditions. That is why the factories spend litereally MILLIONS of dollars EVERY year to adopt those strategies. You do understand that the factories AND ProEFI BOTH use closed loop feedback as well as ADAPTIVE learning....right? WHy would you "waste" the processing power and ram space to do something that is "unnecessary"? Are you now saying that with all the money and resources that the factories have, that they can't "get their maps spot on"? Seriously, does that make any sense at all?????

1ZweetZ

Just got this back from ProEFI.

"The reason adaptive learning is widely used by the O.E.'s is because you absolutely can NOT account for every dynamic in the engine. Sensors can't be placed in the best possible location (inside the combustion chamber) and therefore several assumptions must be made. THings like the temperature of the air actually entering the cylinder, and cylinder temperature can not be based upon coolant temperature alone, and sophisticated calculations PREDICTING combustion temperatures are made. The predictions are still just that. So standard air temp corrections and coolant temp corrections are only accurate under some running conditions, and no where near ALL running conditions. That is where adaptive learning comes in. The exact same running conditions even hours apart can require slightly different trims based upon a number of things not limited fuel vaporization and how this affects the mixture entering the combustion chamber.

I hope this helps"

1ZweetZ

So does that mean we agree or disagree?

SlideFox

I think it means you should stop quoting each other?

SlideFox

I agree, and I will leave at that

"Actions speak louder than words"

App6MT

iTrader: (1)

Any ETA for the 128pin?

SlideFox

I posted your question on the ProEFI Forum for an answer. When I see that it has been responded to, I will post the response.

rcdash

iTrader: (18)

Perhaps "not readily available" is more appropriate? If you choose to keep distribution limited and not provide end user tuning "out of the box", then I guess a product at any point in development could be called ready when you say it's ready.

I think many of us are wanting to see what others have to say (shops that are EMS platform independent and can provide unbiased insights): Julian, Sharif, Sam, Juan, Jeremy, Dave, etc...

I don't understand why shops have to pay $3000 per copy for the tuning software. Shouldn't the software and hardware be bundled together? I guess I don't understand the business relationship between ProEFI, Intense and Sound Performance.

Blackstar - you made a point, but you went overboard. There is never call to be disrespectful, especially when some of these topics represent the livelihood for many of this community.

SoundPerformance

It is blatently obvious that Blackstar has ulterior motives and is perhaps affiliated with another competing shop.


Let's get this thread back on track!!

SoundPerformance

It is because the computers and software are built/written by Motorola and were designed for OEM applications. Every copy of the software we purchase from Motorola cost us $3K. They wont budge on the price. ALthough they are somewhat helping in the new consumer software development....... and even that is costing ProEFI a bundle!!

SlideFox

Larry, doesn't each authorized dealer only have to purchase 1 copy of the software? I think that's where some people are getting confused.

rc, I believe the reason dealers have a different software then what the end-user will have, is because they will have the access to change certain perameters they feel the end-user shouldn't have access to. This is only because, not every person who gets a stand-alone EMS knows what to do with it, and tinkers with the settings (I personally think that was the downfall of the AEM). Everyone wants to think they know how to tune, but the vast majority don't. Not to say there aren't capable people out there that would be able to.

ZU L8R

iTrader: (84)

Blackstar has been banned

SoundPerformance

Yes, I know that I had to!

SoundPerformance

Thank you.... I am all for an open discussion of any aspect of this thread... but being slanderous and disrespectful is crossing the line!