Powerlab 35R kit will not make 500 HP
06-09-2010 | 07:08 PM
#361
Eric, you have called out other people for being biased and protecting their favorite shop. In this case, just step back and consider whether it is prudent for a shop to recommend that someone push a turbo beyond the manufacturer's rated specifications.
06-09-2010 | 07:24 PM
#362
Why not quite your nuthugging and word smithing and get answer to Hal's questions....
Apparently Intense nor PL can contribute any relevant data to this thread either.
Apparently Intense nor PL can contribute any relevant data to this thread either.
My questions to Intense are the following, and can be taken to PM/Email if necessary (though as noted below, did not get a response to question 1 when asked privately before):
1. As asked by Greg and left unanswered, please provide intake air temperature logs at 10, 15, 20 and 25psi?
2. Please explain more on your statement, "I'm curious who told you that you will be making over 500wheel on pump gas?" I take this as you suggesting it likely may not achieve 500whp on pump gas. What was the maximum boost and power you/PL achieved with PL GT35R on pump gas? What would you consider to be the limiting factor of your kit's power production on pump gas? Keep in mind, I do not subscribe to the generic school of thought "you can't go beyond XX psi on pump gas!"... I want to know the reason for the limit.
3. Hopefully you logged exhaust back pressure in the development of this turbo kit? If so, please share the findings, as I feel this is most likely the factor currently limiting further power production. My next move would be finding the limitation causing the back pressure, and improving it - be it piping, turbo, etc. I already know there are plenty of bandwagon people ready to tell me about how great the piping is - but again, please only people with first hand experience of PL Kit on built motor chime in.
1. As asked by Greg and left unanswered, please provide intake air temperature logs at 10, 15, 20 and 25psi?
2. Please explain more on your statement, "I'm curious who told you that you will be making over 500wheel on pump gas?" I take this as you suggesting it likely may not achieve 500whp on pump gas. What was the maximum boost and power you/PL achieved with PL GT35R on pump gas? What would you consider to be the limiting factor of your kit's power production on pump gas? Keep in mind, I do not subscribe to the generic school of thought "you can't go beyond XX psi on pump gas!"... I want to know the reason for the limit.
3. Hopefully you logged exhaust back pressure in the development of this turbo kit? If so, please share the findings, as I feel this is most likely the factor currently limiting further power production. My next move would be finding the limitation causing the back pressure, and improving it - be it piping, turbo, etc. I already know there are plenty of bandwagon people ready to tell me about how great the piping is - but again, please only people with first hand experience of PL Kit on built motor chime in.
06-09-2010 | 07:34 PM
#363
One more noteworthy observation about 1ZweetZ's post; he states "FYI, the 37R in question is a 35R with a larger 67mm compressor wheel and a different compressor cover. Otherwise it's the same turbo on the 'hot' side."
According to Garrett's website, this is a completely false statement. Per Garrett's website, the GT35R turbines have a wheel diameter of 68 mm. The GT37R turbine has a 72.5mm diameter. Here are the links for confirmation:
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbob...R_714568_3.htm
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbob...R_772719_1.htm
Last edited by ttg35fort; 06-09-2010 at 07:38 PM.
06-09-2010 | 07:37 PM
#364
I don't think the compressor map is wrong. Look, you can exceed the choke line, even though Garrett states that you should not. When you exceed the choke line, the IAT will be very high. You can run high octane race gas to compensate and/or meth or meth/water injection to reduce the IAT temperature, but still you are exceeding the choke line. Garrett clearly indicates that the turbos are not designed to operate beyond the choke line, which likely means they will not last as long as they are desig
Eric, you have called out other people for being biased and protecting their favorite shop. In this case, just step back and consider whether it is prudent for a shop to recommend that someone push a turbo beyond the manufacturer's rated specifications.
Eric, you have called out other people for being biased and protecting their favorite shop. In this case, just step back and consider whether it is prudent for a shop to recommend that someone push a turbo beyond the manufacturer's rated specifications.
The general statement made in that thread that a GT35R turbo will not make 600whp was wrong. Experience outside the glass bubble of the VQ community has repeatedly proven otherwise on several other platforms.
Again, I don't see how the discussion in that thread is relevant to the OP's situation.
06-09-2010 | 07:43 PM
#365
I didn't say the compressor map was wrong. I am saying the person making the assertion in that thread was wrong when he said a GT35R cannot make 600whp. The choke line may indeed be relevant to the OP's goals with pump gas.
The general statement made in that thread that a GT35R turbo will not make 600whp was wrong. Experience outside the glass bubble of the VQ community has repeatedly proven otherwise on several other platforms.
Again, I don't see how the discussion in that thread is relevant to the OP's situation.
The general statement made in that thread that a GT35R turbo will not make 600whp was wrong. Experience outside the glass bubble of the VQ community has repeatedly proven otherwise on several other platforms.
Again, I don't see how the discussion in that thread is relevant to the OP's situation.
The relevance to the OP's situation is that if he wants to reach his hp goal with the turbo that he presently has, it looks like he will need to push beyond the compressor's choke line, and this is not good.
Last edited by ttg35fort; 06-09-2010 at 07:47 PM.
06-09-2010 | 07:46 PM
#366
FYI, i am not 100% sure either but i think this is the gt37r being used:
http://www.full-race.com/catalog/pro...oducts_id=1107
its not a straight swap..i think a couple of things on piping change, but nothin major
http://www.full-race.com/catalog/pro...oducts_id=1107
its not a straight swap..i think a couple of things on piping change, but nothin major
Thanks!
One more noteworthy observation about 1ZweetZ's post; he states "FYI, the 37R in question is a 35R with a larger 67mm compressor wheel and a different compressor cover. Otherwise it's the same turbo on the 'hot' side."
According to Garrett's website, this is a completely false statement. Per Garrett's website, the GT35R turbines have a wheel diameter of 68 mm. The GT37R turbine has a 72.5mm diameter. Here are the links for confirmation:
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbob...R_714568_3.htm
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbob...R_772719_1.htm
According to Garrett's website, this is a completely false statement. Per Garrett's website, the GT35R turbines have a wheel diameter of 68 mm. The GT37R turbine has a 72.5mm diameter. Here are the links for confirmation:
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbob...R_714568_3.htm
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbob...R_772719_1.htm
06-09-2010 | 07:52 PM
#367
It's not just talking about the GT3788R, ALL of the GT37 turbos listed on Garrett's website use a 72.5mm turbine, while ALL of the GT35 turbos listed use a 68mm turbine. So, what am I missing? Check for yourself. I just did.
Last edited by ttg35fort; 06-09-2010 at 08:00 PM.
06-09-2010 | 07:59 PM
#368
Touché Likewise, Intense had some questions for Injected that were unanswered. It goes both ways and both shops have stepped back from this thread to resolve the matter amongst themselves. I'm sure both shops will post when they feel it is appropriate or necessary to do so.
Furthermore, the OP's car needs to go back to the shop before further testing and attempts at a resolution can be made. What do you expect Intense/PowerLab and Injected to do in the meantime to keep the peanut gallery satisfied?
Last edited by RudeG_v2.0; 06-09-2010 at 08:42 PM.
06-09-2010 | 08:04 PM
#369
Follow the link in Jorge's post. It's not a Garrett 37R. It's a Garrett 35R that was modified with a larger compressor and relabeled by Full Race.
06-09-2010 | 08:11 PM
#370
As I have stated numerous times in this thread, I think the issue with the OP's setup is the compressor, and going to a larger compressor or higher compressor trim will help him reach his goals. Actually, at first blush, your post seems to confirm this.
06-09-2010 | 08:25 PM
#371
What's the purpose?
As I have stated numerous times in this thread, I think the issue with the OP's setup is the compressor, and going to a larger compressor or higher compressor trim will help him reach his goals. Actually, at first blush, your post seems to confirm this.
As I have stated numerous times in this thread, I think the issue with the OP's setup is the compressor, and going to a larger compressor or higher compressor trim will help him reach his goals. Actually, at first blush, your post seems to confirm this.
I'm just trying to clarify for you the turbo that was used. 1ZweetZ was correct.
06-09-2010 | 08:44 PM
#372
Banned
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,342
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From: under the hood
op numbers on a dyno are stupid,you own a turbo z and you should go enjoy it instead of listening to the peanut gallery here.you don't need bigger turbo's or twin turbo's or sequential turbo's just control iat and drive your car.it's well boosted and probably smokes 3 gears go have fun.
EDIT:if you know what the peanut gallery is without googling you win a prize.
Last edited by go-fast; 06-09-2010 at 08:53 PM.
06-09-2010 | 08:59 PM
#373
Post # 363 indicates that 1ZweetZ was NOT correct about the the GT35 and GT37 turbos having the same turbine. Check Garrett's website for yourself, PLEASE. They don't.
EDIT: the compressor wheels on the GT35 listed on Garrett's website are all 82 mm. How is the 67mm compressor wheel incicated by 1ZweetZ bigger than a 82mm compressor wheel indicated by Garrett for the GT35 turbos?
Look, none of your arguments make any sense. You have held numerous forum members to task for nuthugging, including RCDash and XKR, and you appear to be doing the same for your favorite shop. Hold yourself to the same standards that you expect from others, plain and simple.
Last edited by ttg35fort; 06-09-2010 at 09:16 PM.
06-09-2010 | 09:03 PM
#374
Are you kidding me? His IATs are too high because he is operating at, or beyond, the choke line. Look at the evidence... From what I hear, you are supposed to be somewhat of an expert. Well, if you are, sit down and analyze the data.
06-09-2010 | 09:14 PM
#375
Huh???
Post # 363 indicates that 1ZweetZ was NOT correct about the the GT35 and GT37 turbos having the same turbine. Check Garrett's website for yourself, PLEASE. They don't.
1ZweetZ also references a "bigger" 67mm compressor wheel. Once again, if you look at Garrett's website, all of the GT35's have a 68mm compressor wheel. How is a 67mm compressor wheel bigger than a 68mm compressor wheel?
Look, none of your arguments make any sense. You have held numerous forum members to task for nuthugging, including RCDash and XKR, and you appear to be doing the same for your favorite shop. Hold yourself to the same standards that you expect from others, plain and simple.
Post # 363 indicates that 1ZweetZ was NOT correct about the the GT35 and GT37 turbos having the same turbine. Check Garrett's website for yourself, PLEASE. They don't.
1ZweetZ also references a "bigger" 67mm compressor wheel. Once again, if you look at Garrett's website, all of the GT35's have a 68mm compressor wheel. How is a 67mm compressor wheel bigger than a 68mm compressor wheel?
Look, none of your arguments make any sense. You have held numerous forum members to task for nuthugging, including RCDash and XKR, and you appear to be doing the same for your favorite shop. Hold yourself to the same standards that you expect from others, plain and simple.
You are confused. You are failing to understand what 1ZweetZ was referring to and what I am trying to clarify for you. He did not state that a genuine Garrett GT37R has the same turbine as a Garrett 35R. He is saying that the "37R" used in the PowerLab kit has the same turbine as a 35R. I have been trying to show you that the Full Race turbo is a Garrett 35R modified with a larger compressor and is renamed/referred to as a 37R.
You owe me an apology sir.
06-09-2010 | 09:22 PM
#376
Banned
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,342
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From: under the hood
your arguing math with rude and i'm grounded down here on earth telling the op to control iat's and go enjoy his car........you might have to take some of your own advise and back up a little
06-09-2010 | 09:25 PM
#377
Terry,
You are confused. You are failing to understand what 1ZweetZ was referring to and what I am trying to clarify for you. He did not state that a genuine Garrett GT37R has the same turbine as a Garrett 35R. He is saying that the "37R" used in the PowerLab kit has the same turbine as a 35R. I have been trying to show you that the Full Race turbo is a Garrett 35R modified with a larger compressor and is renamed/referred to as a 37R.
You owe me an apology sir.
You are confused. You are failing to understand what 1ZweetZ was referring to and what I am trying to clarify for you. He did not state that a genuine Garrett GT37R has the same turbine as a Garrett 35R. He is saying that the "37R" used in the PowerLab kit has the same turbine as a 35R. I have been trying to show you that the Full Race turbo is a Garrett 35R modified with a larger compressor and is renamed/referred to as a 37R.
You owe me an apology sir.
If a 82mm compressor is not working, how can a 67mm compressor perform any better? Also, how is a 67mm compressor larger than an 82mm compressor?
Last edited by ttg35fort; 06-09-2010 at 09:28 PM.
06-09-2010 | 10:12 PM
#378
Per Garrett's website, GT37 refers to a 72.5mm turbine while a GT35 referrs to a 68mm turbine. But, for now, let's ignore the false advertising implications.
If a 82mm compressor is not working, how can a 67mm compressor perform any better? Also, how is a 67mm compressor larger than an 82mm compressor?
If a 82mm compressor is not working, how can a 67mm compressor perform any better? Also, how is a 67mm compressor larger than an 82mm compressor?
A 67mm inducer is indeed bigger than the 61.4mm inducer size listed for the 35R turbo on Garrett's site.
The inducer size it what's commonly referred to in this industry. Don't believe me? Check out Precision's turbo lineup.
http://www.spracingonline.com/store/...200&vehicleid=
Their 67mm turbo is rated to 900 horsepower.
http://www.spracingonline.com/store/...urbo_6765/3677
06-09-2010 | 10:14 PM
#379
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 4,470
Likes: 5
From: Arizona
06-09-2010 | 10:23 PM
#380
My point is that it appears that C16 is being used as a band aid. The turbo is operating somewhere around its choke line, and maybe beyond the choke line depending on the particular build. When you do this, the compressor efficiency is fairly low, so the intake air temperature will be pretty high. On pump gas detonation will occur prematurely. The C16 obviously helps to compensate for this.
Nonetheless, when you operate beyond the choke line, you are pushing the turbo harder than it was designed to be pushed. If the owner frequently operates beyond the choke line, the turbo will not last as long as it should. Garrett states on its website in no uncertain terms that you should not operate beyond the choke line. If you are beyond the choke line, a larger compressor should be used. I think a larger compressor trim value also should help, but I don't know whether Garrett offers this as an available option on the GT3582R turbo. I looked but did not see it on the website.
Nonetheless, when you operate beyond the choke line, you are pushing the turbo harder than it was designed to be pushed. If the owner frequently operates beyond the choke line, the turbo will not last as long as it should. Garrett states on its website in no uncertain terms that you should not operate beyond the choke line. If you are beyond the choke line, a larger compressor should be used. I think a larger compressor trim value also should help, but I don't know whether Garrett offers this as an available option on the GT3582R turbo. I looked but did not see it on the website.
It appears to me that the first two numbers in the turbo part number relate to the turbine size and the second two numbers relate to the compressor size.
I don't think the issue with the GT3582R turbo is the turbine, it's more likely the compressor. I think a larger compressor, say something like a GT3588R, would perform better than the GT3582 in a single turbo setup on a 3.5L motor.
I already stated this, but it bears worth repeating. To me, based on the compressor maps, it appears that the GT35 turbos are designed for a small displacement motor, like something in the 1.5L-2.5L range. Of course, in a twin turbo setup that is what you end up with on a 3.5L motor (each turbo is effectively handling 1/2 the displacement). More displacement requires a larger compressor.
Also, I keep suggesting that a higher trim value be used, but this is based on what I see in the compressor maps. Maybe I am taking too much liberty there because I really don't know if they will run into other issues by increasing the trim. Maybe they will, maybe they won't. I guess that is a good question for a Garrett engineer. If there are no issues, a higher trim value is definitely beneficial for larger displacement motors.
I don't think the issue with the GT3582R turbo is the turbine, it's more likely the compressor. I think a larger compressor, say something like a GT3588R, would perform better than the GT3582 in a single turbo setup on a 3.5L motor.
I already stated this, but it bears worth repeating. To me, based on the compressor maps, it appears that the GT35 turbos are designed for a small displacement motor, like something in the 1.5L-2.5L range. Of course, in a twin turbo setup that is what you end up with on a 3.5L motor (each turbo is effectively handling 1/2 the displacement). More displacement requires a larger compressor.
Also, I keep suggesting that a higher trim value be used, but this is based on what I see in the compressor maps. Maybe I am taking too much liberty there because I really don't know if they will run into other issues by increasing the trim. Maybe they will, maybe they won't. I guess that is a good question for a Garrett engineer. If there are no issues, a higher trim value is definitely beneficial for larger displacement motors.
LOL! Are you comparing the compressor exducer dimension listed on Garrett's site with the compressor inducer dimension being referred to on the Full Race turbo???
A 67mm inducer is indeed bigger than the 61.4mm inducer size listed for the 35R turbo on Garrett's site.
The inducer size it what's commonly referred to in this industry. Don't believe me? Check out Precision's turbo lineup.
http://www.spracingonline.com/store/...200&vehicleid=
Their 67mm turbo is rated to 900 horsepower.
http://www.spracingonline.com/store/...urbo_6765/3677
A 67mm inducer is indeed bigger than the 61.4mm inducer size listed for the 35R turbo on Garrett's site.
The inducer size it what's commonly referred to in this industry. Don't believe me? Check out Precision's turbo lineup.
http://www.spracingonline.com/store/...200&vehicleid=
Their 67mm turbo is rated to 900 horsepower.
http://www.spracingonline.com/store/...urbo_6765/3677
Last edited by ttg35fort; 06-09-2010 at 10:24 PM.