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Yea after ECM telling me that aluminum engines should be re-torqued after first heat cycle to ensure heads are still torqued I went ahead and jumped to 105.
not sure how you'd retorque them after the cams are bolted in ... but I respect what they're saying.
L-19 HEAD STUDS FOR THE VQ DO NOT NEED RE - TORQUING..... THIS IS PER ARP
FOLLOW ARP INSTRUCTIONS! 90-95 FT LBS
When unsure always follow the Manufactures Specs
Who is telling you to retorque?
Emerald Coast says that aluminum blocks and heads should be re-torqued after the first heat cycle due to the expansion of the metals. But they focus on Subaru's and Evo's, so it may be a thing on those engines.
When they told me that I looked in the FSM and called Z1 to see what they say. Z1 said to look at the FSM.
Also I went with 105 ft lbs just for that little bit more security. There have been a few people who torqued them down to 105. I think I've seen as high as 110.
Based on that type of Logic, then why not 115-120 ft its, and feel really secure. Not trying to be an ***.....
I'm made 20psi on a stock motor for 50,00 miles and still never any head problems.
Just wondering what kind of Motor you are trying to Build? If I getting you thinking, then my job is done.
How are those engines doing now, that were done to 105 and 110 on L19's ? Any Idea?
Originally Posted by Conway_160
Emerald Coast says that aluminum blocks and heads should be re-torqued after the first heat cycle due to the expansion of the metals. But they focus on Subaru's and Evo's, so it may be a thing on those engines.
When they told me that I looked in the FSM and called Z1 to see what they say. Z1 said to look at the FSM.
Also I went with 105 ft lbs just for that little bit more security. There have been a few people who torqued them down to 105. I think I've seen as high as 110.
Based on that type of Logic, then why not 115-120 ft its, and feel really secure. Not trying to be an ***.....
I'm made 20psi on a stock motor for 50,00 miles and still never any head problems.
Just wondering what kind of Motor you are trying to Build? If I getting you thinking, then my job is done.
How are those engines doing now, that were done to 105 and 110 on L19's ? Any Idea?
OMZ - I say this with the utmost respect, you know I keep you in the highest regards, and I value what you have offered the community - take this as open discussion and please give me your thoughts and response!
But let me offer a few rebuttles ...
1. indeed you are running 20psi of boost on your stock block(both respectable and brass-*****), but you are not running optimal timing to take full advantage of 20psi (and I get it, if you optimize your timing you'd pop your block). But horsepower doesnt lift heads, torque does (hence why you can run built-block boost on a stock block).
2. I dont know how much torque you can put on an L19 before the OEM threads (in the block) give. Does adding 10 to 20ft-lbs of additional torque harm the OEM threads? But adding 10ft-lbs of torque does offer more clamping force.
I agree with Conway's decision to add the additional torque ... I believe the OEM threads can take it the additional force applied and the L19s will take the additional tension. The result is a tighter clamped head.
With that being said - I will admit it's probably not necessary ... I can only imagine Conway is looking for ~600hp? and 95ft-lbs will hold 600hp.
I may have the names mixed up as that was meant for Conway......
Not sure why the OMZ thing....
I'm a retired mechanical engineer, mostly in Automotive. So, when a reputable company like ARP, Carrillo, CP and on and on and on, give Spec's for there Products I respect them enough to know that I did not do the Engineering & Testing Required to come up with the Specifications for a particular Part and Application and that it was done Right by them.
ARP has been around a long time making fasteners for Race engines. When It come to Torque Specs on their Stuff, you only talk to their Engineering Dept. Period!
There are companies that you can not trust what you are told! And you need to be able to know when that is.
You also, need to Trust you own Experience & Judgement. So, if you are going to go out of Spec, you better Know what you're doing!
There is always room to Fudge, But IMO not Here. If Conway what's Head Studs Torqued to 105-110 then Get the 625+
You could most likely torque the L19's to 150 Ft Lbs. But then you got to start the motor and crank up the boost...... LOL Boom
Mazworx has found that the Head deflects/Deforms at those levels.... ( trying to clamp the head too tight ) This is why they go to an O-Ring with a copper gasket If you run super high boost levels like 40,50,60....110PSI
In a correctly Built Motor, Cylinder Pressure is what lifts Heads.
Your Statement: but you are not running optimal timing to take full advantage of 20psi (and I get it, if you optimize your timing you'd pop your block)
Do you mean MBT?
How do you make a Statement like that? How would you have any Idea what My Ignition Timing Curve Is? Hummmmmm
So, please Enlighten Me!
It's Late, I don't type well, and sometime misinterpret what people mean, so forgive me....
Sincerely,
TimRod
Last edited by OldManZ350; Mar 9, 2020 at 12:50 AM.
I may have the names mixed up as that was meant for Conway......
Not sure why the OMZ thing....
I'm a retired mechanical engineer, mostly in Automotive. So, when a reputable company like ARP, Carrillo, CP and on and on and on, give Spec's for there Products I respect them enough to know that I did not do the Engineering & Testing Required to come up with the Specifications for a particular Part and Application and that it was done Right by them.
ARP has been around a long time making fasteners for Race engines. When It come to Torque Specs on their Stuff, you only talk to their Engineering Dept. Period!
There are companies that you can not trust what you are told! And you need to be able to know when that is.
You also, need to Trust you own Experience & Judgement. So, if you are going to go out of Spec, you better Know what you're doing!
There is always room to Fudge, But IMO not Here. If Conway what's Head Studs Torqued to 105-110 then Get the 625+
You could most likely torque the L19's to 150 Ft Lbs. But then you got to start the motor and crank up the boost...... LOL Boom
Mazworx has found that the Head deflects/Deforms at those levels.... ( trying to clamp the head too tight ) This is why they go to an O-Ring with a copper gasket If you run super high boost levels like 40,50,60....110PSI
In a correctly Built Motor, Cylinder Pressure is what lifts Heads.
Your Statement: but you are not running optimal timing to take full advantage of 20psi (and I get it, if you optimize your timing you'd pop your block)
Do you mean MBT?
How do you make a Statement like that? How would you have any Idea what My Ignition Timing Curve Is? Hummmmmm
So, please Enlighten Me!
It's Late, I don't type well, and sometime misinterpret what people mean, so forgive me....
Sincerely,
TimRod
I appreciate the response Timrod and all is forgiven - Indeed, I don't know what your ignition curve is other than your torque output is inconsistently low with your boost level and hp output for the VQ. Am I missing something? 20psi should yield you another 100ft-lbs of torque - especially at sea level. Flipside, you probably have some efficiency losses with the supercharger that I'm not accounting for. For rudametric comparison, my 17psi (in Colorado) did 568/544 … and yes, different dynos, different days/weather/atmosphere/etc, can only assume you used a std correction, and turbo vs. supercharger peristatic losses...
I agree that excessive cylinder pressure lifts heads and MBT will optimize that cylinder pressure and thus make more torque. Horsepower = how fast you can spin your engine, torque = the point where the engine is operating at it's peak efficiency. (thank you in advance)
Let me ask this first, has anyone ever checked the torque of there head bolts after the first heat cycle to see if they do in fact loosen up?
Like I said I've never heard of this before, that's why I called ARP and Z1. ARP told me they don't make off the shelf L-19 kits for the VQ.
So they didn't do any of the testing or have any facts about about it. They told me that Z1 is the ones who had the L-19's made for the VQ so they should have all that information.
When I called Z1 they said to follow the FSM. Welp the FSM is for Stretch to yield bolts but doesn't talk about re-torquing.
So I decided to error on the side of caution and add a few more ft. lb's.
Now if this online calculator is correct this is the additional force I added.
75 ft lbs. .433071" diameter .3 Coefficient of Friction, equals 6927.27 (What the heads were torqued to when I popped my head gasket.) 79% of the clamping force recommended by Z1.
95 ft lbs, .433071" diameter, .3 COF (used ARP lube), that equaled 8,774.54 lbs of force
105 ft lbs. .433071" diameter, .3 COF, equals 9,698.17 lbs of force.
That extra 10 ft lbs gave me and extra 10% more clamping force. I'm hoping that helps prevent blowing another head gasket at 550whp.
This is just a few different engines and the torque they put. These were all 11MM studs like the VQ
2JZ-105ft lbs
VG30DE-110ft lbs
4G63-105 ft lbs
4B11-105 ft lbs
So there are many other engines out there running 105, NOW i'm not sure which of these engines are open deck and what are closed deck that would affect how much torqued is applied.
Tim,
Was you running MBT on race fuel? I seem to think you was running like 19-21* of timing.
From what I gathered from ECM, it's the heads that cause the loosening up not the block. The aluminum heads expand more than the cast iron block.
You may understand this and be able to break it down for the rest of us but, Cast iron has a coefficient of Expansion of 5.7 ppm/*F were as 356 aluminium (most head castings) has a COE of 12.0/ppm*F.
That leads me to believe that aluminum expands twice as much as cast iron.
As for the rest of your questions I have no idea, and would take a decent about of time to look up.
With that being said, was it unwise for me to torque to 105ft lbs? I don't know we'll find out once the car is back up and running and see's some boost.
With that being said, was it unwise for me to torque to 105ft lbs? I don't know we'll find out once the car is back up and running and see's some boost.
I don't think it was and I applaud your courage in doing so! You're blazing the path forward!
Timrod - did you dial back your timing to reduce torque to not-pop your block? Or is your timing at MBT? Just curious …
Yes, Aluminum expands more than Cast Iron......Iron blocks with Aluminum Heads has been done for 40 years, it's not an issue.....
Originally Posted by Conway_160
Tim,
From what I gathered from ECM, it's the heads that cause the loosening up not the block. The aluminum heads expand more than the cast iron block.
You may understand this and be able to break it down for the rest of us but, Cast iron has a coefficient of Expansion of 5.7 ppm/*F were as 356 aluminium (most head castings) has a COE of 12.0/ppm*F.
That leads me to believe that aluminum expands twice as much as cast iron.
As for the rest of your questions I have no idea, and would take a decent about of time to look up. I don't think you will fine this info on the Internet. The way to know is to Cut up a Block and Look! This is how the Pro's Know!
With that being said, was it unwise for me to torque to 105ft lbs? I don't know we'll find out once the car is back up and running and see's some boost.
Best to work in a Neat, Clean and Orderly Area......
Tim,
You can get lower pan gasket from Auto Zone. I pan on using it for the first oil so i can drop the lower pan easier when I do the first oil change. I always drop the pan on the first oil change to look for big chunks of metal.
Also, I know it's best to work in a clean area. My garage is super small so I had to make do what what little space I have. I should have cleaned up the kitty litter but it is what it is now. I ensured everything was clean before installing it into the engine.
I always drop the pan on the first oil change to look for big chunks of metal.
Listen, Conway ... If you have big chunks of metal after your first oil change, you have bigger problems them a ring of RTV on the lower oil pan! lol!!! Lets hope you dont!
If you need another knock sensor subharness I have 3 of them sitting in a box...also, since it's out, you should wire-in the Uprev listening device. Equivilent to the Plex Knock-Block, ie 'det cans' ... actually pretty cool, you can listen to the engine. When I run my car, especially if I'm planning on running it hard, I have plug headphones in hooked up to mine. Basically listening for knock.
